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Author Topic:   Another one that hurts
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10069
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 481 of 508 (773798)
12-09-2015 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 479 by 1.61803
12-09-2015 10:19 AM


Re: bump
The U.S. nuked Hiroshima . Do we now forfeit any credibility to speak out now against doing such a thing?

Quite frankly, I think being the only nation to ever use nuclear weapons does cost the US quite a bit of credibility when speaking out on nuclear disarmament. We still have to do support non proliferation, but even the fact that we posses one of the largest nuclear arsenals in the world does undermine our voice in that area.

Do you really believe having nuked two cities does not cost us any credibility?

The U.S. has conducted Syphilis trials in the past,violating subjects confidence and health

You may have a point, but your line of argument may be undermining your attempts to make such a point. If you are going to build an argument based on questions, you should make sure you know your audience's response to those questions.

Edited by NoNukes, : Two for to and two for tea.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by 1.61803, posted 12-09-2015 10:19 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by 1.61803, posted 12-09-2015 11:54 AM NoNukes has responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2725
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 482 of 508 (773801)
12-09-2015 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 481 by NoNukes
12-09-2015 11:05 AM


Re: bump
NoNukes writes:

Do you really believe having nuked two cities does not cost us any credibility?

No. A nation that speaks out against the obvious evils of such weapons should be encouraged to continue to do so. Do you feel the US should withhold all comment on the subject since we are guilty of doing it in the past?

Well you answered yes to this so I'll move on.

Should Germany be ignored on any issues concerning human rights since they perpetrated the holocaust?
You probably answer yes to this one too.

I guess your right, I should know my audience and never underestimate the power of self righteous indignant attitudes.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 481 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2015 11:05 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by ringo, posted 12-09-2015 12:01 PM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 488 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2015 4:30 PM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13885
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 483 of 508 (773802)
12-09-2015 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by 1.61803
12-09-2015 11:54 AM


Re: bump
~1.6 writes:

Do you feel the US should withhold all comment on the subject since we are guilty of doing it in the past?


I don't ask Charles Manson for his opinions on murder.

~1.6 writes:

Should Germany be ignored on any issues concerning human rights since they perpetrated the holocaust?


If Germany says, "Oops. It won't happen again," they should be eyed with suspicion.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by 1.61803, posted 12-09-2015 11:54 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by vimesey, posted 12-09-2015 4:03 PM ringo has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 484 of 508 (773811)
12-09-2015 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 480 by ringo
12-09-2015 10:48 AM


Re: "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
Like all your attempts at analogy, this one also fails.

Please try again.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by ringo, posted 12-09-2015 10:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by ringo, posted 12-10-2015 10:45 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 485 of 508 (773816)
12-09-2015 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by 1.61803
12-09-2015 10:19 AM


The West has no credibility.
1.61803 writes:

I get the feeling you think the U.S. and it's allies are deserved of ISILS brutality and are reaping what they sowed.

Innocent civilians never deserve to be murdered.

_______________________________________________________

1.61803 writes:

A nations past sins do not mean the country forfeits the possibility of redemption.

NN writes:

Quite frankly, I think being the only nation to ever use nuclear weapons does cost the US quite a bit of credibility when speaking out on nuclear disarmament.

I agree NN. That would be called hypocrisy.

RingO writes:

I don't ask Charles Manson for his opinions on murder.

I agree RingO. There's a good reason why he wouldn't be allowed on a jury.

quote:
Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, thats more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

American Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the pricewe think the price is worth it.


Yeah, you read that correct, the West strongly believes that murdering a half MILLION Iraqi CHILDREN is a WORTHWHILE activity. Gee, I forgot, in contrast, how many Parisians were killed by terrorists last month? 1.61803, can you do the math on this? What is the murder ratio of innocent civilians of the West and ISIL?

But in this case, we don't need to only consider the atrocities of the past. Not only is the West guilty of horrific atrocities of the PAST, they are also guilty of horrific atrocities of the PRESENT.

quote:
Was the U.S. attack on the Kunduz hospital a war crime?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...unduz-hospital-a-war-crime

So, just what kind of ethical credibility does a nation that murders doctors in hospitals, or children via repeating drone strikes have?

Be specific.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by 1.61803, posted 12-09-2015 10:19 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by 1.61803, posted 12-10-2015 11:20 AM dronestar has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(2)
Message 486 of 508 (773820)
12-09-2015 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by ringo
12-09-2015 12:01 PM


Re: bump
If Germany says, "Oops. It won't happen again," they should be eyed with suspicion.

Actually, I'd lean the other way. Having wrestled with the aftermath of such a recently vile history, my experience of Germans is that in general they are incredibly aware of the dangers of seductively stirring, jingoistic, right wing rhetoric. They are proud to have a criminal offence of holocaust denial, for example.

Other nations don't have that cautionary experience - witness the poll numbers for Trump, which just get higher, the more racist, reactionary and downright fascist he gets. I reckon that in today's Germany, they'd have locked him up by now.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by ringo, posted 12-09-2015 12:01 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by ringo, posted 12-10-2015 10:49 AM vimesey has not yet responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1349
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 487 of 508 (773822)
12-09-2015 4:18 PM


States and People
There seems to be a bit of confusion developing over the difference between a state and a person.

The US has no credibility in any comment it makes on nuclear disarmament. This has nothing at all do with World War II, however*. This is because they still have the world's largest nuclear arsenal. Those running the US governent today are not responsible for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as the overwhelming majority were not yet born, and those that were were very small children with no influence on events.

Similarly, despite being British, I am not responsible for any of the British governments involvements in Iraq, on account of not having voted for that government. Most who did vote for that government share no responsibility either, but that's a slightly more complicated argument that I'll leave for now.

All I really wanted to do was point out that people are only responsible for their own actions. An important thing to remember given that ignoring this is part of what enables the behaviour that prompted this thread.

*bearing in mind that I'm speaking in some sort of idealised sense of what should be. In the real world, of course, people do actually hold grudges for things done long before those they begrudge were born.


Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Jon, posted 12-09-2015 4:54 PM caffeine has responded
 Message 496 by dronestar, posted 12-10-2015 3:59 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10069
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 488 of 508 (773823)
12-09-2015 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by 1.61803
12-09-2015 11:54 AM


Re: bump
Do you feel the US should withhold all comment on the subject since we are guilty of doing it in the past?

No. Of course we can comment. The question is whether or not such comments carry weight.

Well you answered yes to this so I'll move on.

Don't put words in my mouth. The US can comment, but nations who wish to acquire nuclear weapons can understandably give those comments very little weight.

ABE:

Here is what I actually said:

NoNukes writes:

We still have to do support non proliferation, but even the fact that we posses one of the largest nuclear arsenals in the world does undermine our voice in that area.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by 1.61803, posted 12-09-2015 11:54 AM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 489 of 508 (773825)
12-09-2015 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 487 by caffeine
12-09-2015 4:18 PM


Re: States and People
Sorry, but you don't get to share in the benefits of your nation's achievements and not also share in the responsibility for its misdeeds and failures.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by caffeine, posted 12-09-2015 4:18 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 494 by caffeine, posted 12-10-2015 3:16 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13885
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 490 of 508 (773876)
12-10-2015 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by Jon
12-09-2015 1:44 PM


Re: "You ain't no Muslim, bruv."
Jon writes:

Like all your attempts at analogy, this one also fails.


Again you fail to reply with any substance.

Let's try Martin Luther then: he was a saving lunatic; should we tar all Lutherans with that brush?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Jon, posted 12-09-2015 1:44 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13885
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 491 of 508 (773877)
12-10-2015 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 486 by vimesey
12-09-2015 4:03 PM


Re: bump
vimesey writes:

... my experience of Germans is that in general they are incredibly aware of the dangers of seductively stirring, jingoistic, right wing rhetoric. They are proud to have a criminal offence of holocaust denial, for example.


I did say "If".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by vimesey, posted 12-09-2015 4:03 PM vimesey has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2725
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 492 of 508 (773881)
12-10-2015 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 485 by dronestar
12-09-2015 3:33 PM


Re: The West has no credibility.
dronestar writes:

Innocent civilians never deserve to be murdered.


I agree.

dronestar writes:

I agree NN. That would be called hypocrisy.


I thought hypocrisy would be if the US continued to manufacture and stock pile nuclear arms rather than reduce them.

I agree RingO. There's a good reason why he wouldn't be allowed on a jury.
I thought Ringo said he would not want to ask Charles Manson his opinions about murder? He said nothing about a jury.
And if you want to know something about murder who better to ask than a convicted murderer.

Yeah, you read that correct, the West strongly believes that murdering a half MILLION Iraqi CHILDREN is a WORTHWHILE activity. Gee, I forgot, in contrast, how many Parisians were killed by terrorists last month? 1.61803, can you do the math on this? What is the murder ratio of innocent civilians of the West and ISIL?

Madeline Albright said something stupid. The Iraq sanctions was a result of trying to get Saddam out of power. It only embolden him.
Many children died, and no it was not worth it. The US and the West does not think it was. I do not believe that can ever be reconciled but it is not the intentions of the West to kill innocent people. That I think is our main disagreement.
Your hyperbole comparing half a million children's death to the fewer in Paris fails. I do not believe any reasonable person wants to see innocent people die.
But there are some people that will do just that to bring about their cause.

dronestar writes:

So, just what kind of ethical credibility does a nation that murders doctors in hospitals, or children via repeating drone strikes have?

It was a mistake. Poor intelligence, a break down in communications who knows? It does not make it alright.
but it was not on purpose. The shit that went down in California and Paris was purposely targeting innocent civilians.

There is the difference. The US and it's allies do not want to kill innocent civilians. ISIL wants to kill innocent civilians.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by dronestar, posted 12-09-2015 3:33 PM dronestar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 493 by ringo, posted 12-10-2015 11:49 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded
 Message 495 by dronestar, posted 12-10-2015 3:55 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13885
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 493 of 508 (773884)
12-10-2015 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 492 by 1.61803
12-10-2015 11:20 AM


Re: The West has no credibility.
~1.6 writes:

And if you want to know something about murder who better to ask than a convicted murderer.


If I wanted to know how to murder, I might go to a convicted murderer for pointers. ("How do you make sure they're not merely dead but really most sincerely dead?")

But I wouldn't go to a murderer for advice on whether murder is a good idea. Similarly, I wouldn't go to the US, the only nuclear murderer in history, for advice on whether nuclear weapons are a good idea. Their opinions on the "obvious evils" don't interest me because we clearly disagree on what's obvious.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by 1.61803, posted 12-10-2015 11:20 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1349
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 494 of 508 (773911)
12-10-2015 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Jon
12-09-2015 4:54 PM


Re: States and People
Sorry, but you don't get to share in the benefits of your nation's achievements and not also share in the responsibility for its misdeeds and failures.

This sounds like a nice simple truism at first, but it quickly loses it's sense when you think about it in any detail.

For starters, how do we determine whether someone is sharing in the benefits of their nation's acheivements? If I find a guy on the street searching in a skip for some food that someone might have thrown away, for example, he's clearly not sharing in any benefits of his nation's prior activities. Is he, then, exempt from responsibility for the Iraq war, since he has no benefit from other things done by the British government?

The argument of sharing in benefits makes no sense if it applies to him too, but if it doesn't, then at what point is the line drawn? How much wealth is someone required to possess before they are considered to be sharing in benefits?

Even amongst people with wealth, if they gained it through an economic activity their government restricts, and so could have been much wealthier if their government behaved differently, are they also exempt from responsibility for their government's actions? They earned their wealth, after all, in spite of the government, not because of it.

As for me, I left the UK about a decade ago, so the only benefits I get from being a UK citizen now is a passport that makes travel fairly easy. Am I now, however, partially culpable for all the past actions of the country in which I live, since I share whatever benefits have accrued from previous behaviour as the native population?

What about if my government's actions lessen my quality of life. Do I still bear responsibility for what they do despite campaigning and voting against it, even though its effects on me were negative?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Jon, posted 12-09-2015 4:54 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1379
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 495 of 508 (773914)
12-10-2015 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 492 by 1.61803
12-10-2015 11:20 AM


Re: The West has no credibility.
1.61803 writes:

Madeline Albright said something stupid.

And incredibly psychopathic. And jaw-droppingly incriminating. For which she was not fired or even disciplined by the Clinton Administration. Me'h, go figure.

1.61803 writes:

The Iraq sanctions was a result of trying to get Saddam out of power.

Yeah, targeting innocent civilians to bring about a political result is usually called "terrorism." But only when "they" do it to "us," right?

1.61803 writes:

The US and the West does not think [the murder of 500,000 children] was [worth it].

Uhhh, yes, Madeline Albright, Secretary of the State during the Clinton Administration, after careful thought, said yes, the Iraqi sanctions was worth murdering 500,000 children.

1.61803 writes:

I do not believe that can ever be reconciled but it is not the intentions of the West to kill innocent people.

So after 10 Iraqi children died, the West could have stopped the sanctions that murdered children. But they didn't.

So after 100 Iraqi children died, the West could have stopped the sanctions that murdered children. But they didn't.

So after 1000 Iraqi children died, the West could have stopped the sanctions that murdered children. But they didn't.

So after 10,000 Iraqi children died, the West could have stopped the sanctions that murdered children. But they didn't.

So after 100,000 Iraqi children died, the West could have stopped the sanctions that murdered children. But they didn't.

The following hypothetical news broadcast sounds like your defense:

quote:
. . . Police apprehended the alleged man who stabbed the child 500,000 times in the chest. Said the man, "I just wanted to bring about change in the child's behavior. Although I admit that I did stab the child 500,000 times in the chest, it was not my intention to murder the child. I am not a monster like "true-scottsman" murderers. It was just a non-intentional 500,000 stabbings into the chest. Come to think about it, I think the child was already dead before I even arrived"

Drone writes:

So, just what kind of ethical credibility does a nation that murders doctors in hospitals,

1.61803 writes:

It was a mistake. Poor intelligence, a break down in communications who knows?

but it was not on purpose.

Research/interviews have clearly shown it was not poor intelligence, nor a break down in communications. The West DID willfully bomb the hospital . . .

quote:
The Kunduz Hospital Bombing

After the first strike, MSF contacted US officials and reported the hospital was being bombed and begged them to halt the attack. Nevertheless, the US AC-130 gunship continued to pummel the hospital repeatedly for more than one hour.

Since the Pentagon has access to video and audio recordings taken from the gunship, they must know what actually occurred. Daily Beast reported that the recordings contain conversations among the crew as they were firing on the hospital, including communications between the crew and US soldiers on the ground. Moreover, AC-130 gunships fly low to the ground so the crew can assess what they are hitting.

But members of Congress who oversee the Pentagon have been denied access to the classified recordings.

https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/979037/


Hospital bombing in Afghanistan was premeditated . . .

quote:
Hospital bombing in Afghanistan was premeditated, AP reports

New media revelations have confirmed that the US airstrikes against a Doctors Without Borders/Mdecins Sans Frontires (MSF) medical center in Kunduz, Afghanistan were premeditated and deliberate

American special operations analysts in Afghanistan had been gathering intelligence on the hospital days before it was destroyed on October 3. The official asserts that the analysts had assembled a dossier that included maps with the hospital circled,

However, MSF has repeatedly asserted that no gunmen, weapons or ammunition were housed in their facility. Further, none of the victims killed by the air strikes have been publicly identified as Pakistani, and MSF says that none of its staff at the hospital were Pakistani.

NBC News also reported Thursday that cockpit recordings reveal that the crew actually questioned whether the air strike was legal amid the five separate strafing runs during the attack.

The Department of Defense cited its ongoing internal investigation as their reason not to share the recordings, a further indication that the military operates as a law unto itself. The recordings could contain incriminating dialogue in which higher-ups order their questioning pilots to carry through a premeditated war crime.

In official statements regarding the hospital bombing, US military commanders have changed their story repeatedly.

The latest revelations expose all the previous claims by Obama administration and military officials as lies.

https://zcomm.org/...afghanistan-was-premeditated-ap-reports


Now then, let's get back to the math, . . . what is the murder-ratio of children of the West to ISIL? I prefer to do the math before we add the West's other instances of intentional child murders. Goodness, the numbers will become so big we'll need NASA's super computers to calculate . . .

quote:
Fallujah, The Hidden Massacre

. . . indiscriminate use of violence against civilians and children by military forces of the United States of America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah,_The_Hidden_Massacre



This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by 1.61803, posted 12-10-2015 11:20 AM 1.61803 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by 1.61803, posted 12-10-2015 4:19 PM dronestar has responded

  
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