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NoNukes
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Posts: 9527
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 91 of 109 (774831)
12-23-2015 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ProtoTypical
12-23-2015 10:28 AM


Re: Random nature of paradoxical popsicles
Truly random meaning uncaused and random meaning unpredictable. Is that right? How can a truly random process be governed by anything?

Events can be random individually, but in the aggregate lead to predictable behavior. The motion of individual molecules of a gas can be random, but the pressure exerted by the gas on the container might still obey gas laws. Radioactive decay may be completely random on the nuclear scale, but the decay of a gram of radium can still be predicted accurately using half-life equations.

The probability of an event occurring can be mathematically predictable, but the timing of an event on an individual scale can be utterly unpredictable.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


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Son Goku
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Posts: 1067
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 92 of 109 (776329)
01-12-2016 6:48 AM


Quantum Events
I'm a bit late to the game on this one, but according to current physical theory, two universes that began identically would not stay identical due to quantum mechanical fluctuations.

Regarding hidden variables (by which I mean the possibility that Quantum events are actually determined by some unknown physics) several results restrict these theories. We know that they would have to be:
(a) non-local, communicate faster than light
(b) contextual, particles are aware of and contain information on the state of every other particle in the universe
(c) have essentially infinite complexity, each particle stores an infinite amount of data

Which I think is just as strange as quantum mechanics.


Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by 1.61803, posted 01-12-2016 10:38 AM Son Goku has responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2678
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 93 of 109 (776339)
01-12-2016 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Son Goku
01-12-2016 6:48 AM


Re: Quantum Events
Hi Son Goku,

So the universe/cosmos is in your opinion.

a) deterministic and finite

b) deterministic and infinite

c) indeterministic and finite

d) inderterministic and infinite

e) a combination of a and c

f) a combination of b and d


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 6:48 AM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
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Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1067
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 94 of 109 (776360)
01-12-2016 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by 1.61803
01-12-2016 10:38 AM


Re: Quantum Events
According to the current physics it is not deterministic.

As for finite or infinite, that is essentially unresolved. Our universe is so flat on average that current observations can't tell if it is infinite or not.

So (c) or (d)

Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4630
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 95 of 109 (776364)
01-12-2016 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Son Goku
01-12-2016 12:28 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Son Goku writes:

According to the current physics it is not deterministic.

If you put a human consciousness into the equation, it can't be deterministic because I can screw with it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 12:28 PM Son Goku has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 2:40 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2016 2:52 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 103 by 1.61803, posted 01-12-2016 4:32 PM Tangle has responded

  
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1067
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 96 of 109 (776366)
01-12-2016 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
01-12-2016 2:24 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Can you though? All your actions could be (and evidence indicates are) completely determined by the initial conditions of the particles in your brain.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 2:24 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 3:00 PM Son Goku has not yet responded
 Message 109 by Percy, posted 01-13-2016 7:22 AM Son Goku has not yet responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 12680
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 97 of 109 (776368)
01-12-2016 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
01-12-2016 2:24 PM


Re: Quantum Events
To add to Son Gokus response, a factor not accounted for in an equation could mess it up. But it's not possible to tell that human activity can mess it up in any other way. I've only seen one argument that purports to do so - and that is easily refuted.
This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4630
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 98 of 109 (776369)
01-12-2016 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Son Goku
01-12-2016 2:40 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Son Goku writes:

Can you though? All your actions could be (and evidence indicates are) completely determined by the initial conditions of the particles in your brain.

Suppose I said I'll press this button if that photon goes through the polarizer to the left but I won't if it goes to the right?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 2:40 PM Son Goku has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2016 3:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12680
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 99 of 109 (776372)
01-12-2016 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tangle
01-12-2016 3:00 PM


Re: Quantum Events
quote:

Suppose I said I'll press this button if that photon goes through the polarizer to the left but I won't if it goes to the right?

How would doing that be different from wiring up a detector to trigger the button if the photon goes to the left,but not on the right ? How does human consciousness make a difference ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 3:00 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 4:05 PM PaulK has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4630
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 100 of 109 (776376)
01-12-2016 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by PaulK
01-12-2016 3:34 PM


Re: Quantum Events
PaulK writes:

How would doing that be different from wiring up a detector to trigger the button if the photon goes to the left,but not on the right ? How does human consciousness make a difference ?

Both acts require human consciousness. Doesn't matter whether the machine I built pulls the trigger based on my programming, or me directly.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2016 3:34 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2016 4:16 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 102 by Son Goku, posted 01-12-2016 4:26 PM Tangle has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12680
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 101 of 109 (776378)
01-12-2016 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Tangle
01-12-2016 4:05 PM


Re: Quantum Events
That's not exactly a convincing argument for the idea that human consciousness goes against determinism
This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 4:05 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 4:37 PM PaulK has responded

    
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1067
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 102 of 109 (776380)
01-12-2016 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Tangle
01-12-2016 4:05 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Let us say an atom emits red light if it decays and green light if it remains undecayed. If this atom is next to a photosensitive chemical that contracts under green light and expands under red light, that would be an example of a classical system reacting differently depending on a quantum event.

In fact technically all nearby classical systems react differently to different outcomes of a quantum event. The quantum mechanical decays that power phosphorescence of certain minerals would result in completely different physical states of a cave wall the minerals were embedded in. Wouldn't this be the same as a human going to the right or left depending on the outcome.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 4:05 PM Tangle has responded

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1.61803
Member
Posts: 2678
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 103 of 109 (776381)
01-12-2016 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
01-12-2016 2:24 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Tangle, he said not deterministic.

50 million "little grey cells" just shit the bed mon ami. ~ as inflected by Poirot


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 2:24 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 4:50 PM 1.61803 has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4630
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 104 of 109 (776382)
01-12-2016 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by PaulK
01-12-2016 4:16 PM


Re: Quantum Events
PaulK writes:

That's not exactly a convincing argument for the idea that human consciousness goes against determinism

It's traditional to show your workings :-)

But in any case I only have to give a single instance of how determinism can be broken for determinism to be broken. Something is either deterministic or it ain't.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2016 4:16 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by PaulK, posted 01-12-2016 4:46 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12680
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 105 of 109 (776385)
01-12-2016 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Tangle
01-12-2016 4:37 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Yes, you only have to give a single example - so long as you show that it is a genuine example. When do you intend to attempt that part ?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 4:37 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
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