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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satanís test of manís morality.
Greatest I am
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Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1 of 478 (774308)
12-16-2015 6:27 AM


Jesus and his sacrifice is Satanís test of manís morality.

Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

Most, perhaps all Christians believe the dogma that says that it is good to accept Jesusís sacrifice.

That is exactly like saying that it is good to somehow gain from punishing an innocent man.

If you believe the Christian dogma of substitutionary atonement, then you pass Satanís test and are ready for hell.

Are you ready?

Regards
DL


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 8:10 AM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-16-2015 10:04 AM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 15 by kbertsche, posted 12-16-2015 1:03 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 7:56 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
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Message 2 of 478 (774310)
12-16-2015 7:43 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Jesus and his sacrifice is Satanís test of manís morality. thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Faith
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Posts: 26698
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 478 (774311)
12-16-2015 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 6:27 AM


You disparage the most beautiful gift to mankind ever given.

Jesus and his sacrifice is Satanís test of manís morality.
Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

He chose to take my punishment on Himself, which never even entered my mind. He said He chose it Himself, that He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again, and He did this so that those who would otherwise go to Hell wouldn't have to. I do feel very sorry for all my ugly sins that piled on Him on my behalf, but I'm also very grateful for His sacrifice because I certainly couldn't have saved myself.

Most, perhaps all Christians believe the dogma that says that it is good to accept Jesusís sacrifice.

ALL Christians believe this, you aren't a Christian if you don't. "Good to accept" is a funny way of putting it. If I don't accept it I go to Hell.

That is exactly like saying that it is good to somehow gain from punishing an innocent man.

But it is in this case, a very great good. And again, He chose to do this for us without any of us ever imagining such a thing. He also said you can be forgiven for your horrendous abuse of His great generosity if you also would like to be saved from Hell.

If you believe the Christian dogma of substitutionary atonement, then you pass Satanís test and are ready for hell.

The antigospel according to GIA I guess. We're all ready for Hell since birth. We're born into the sin nature and we don't waste any time adding our own miserable sins to the mix. You aren't any different from the rest of us, and in fact with your outrageous self-righteousness that even presumes to judge God you may be worse than some of us. Probably not worse than me though. Anyway we start out our lives headed for Hell and it only gets worse as we continue to live. We also get some punishment for our sins in this life, believe me I know personally about that. But what a great gift I've been given that I don't have to spend eternity being punished for them because Jesus chose to take my punishment for me. I'm eternally grateful. And in fact I'm sure I will spend eternity thanking Him for it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 6:27 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 9:10 AM Faith has responded
 Message 5 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 9:14 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 36 by deerbreh, posted 12-18-2015 2:30 PM Faith has responded

    
Greatest I am
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Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 4 of 478 (774313)
12-16-2015 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-16-2015 8:10 AM


Faith

Why do you start our discussion with a lie?

"He chose to take my punishment on Himself,"

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Further, Jesus always said that he was doing his fathers work and not his own.

You say, that his forgiveness was a gift. Was his condemnation of you that made him have to sacrifice himself in the first place also a gift?

Would you condemn someone and then turn around and die for them using an immoral tenet that says that people should profit from the punishment of an innocent person instead of a guilty one?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 8:10 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 12-16-2015 10:09 AM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 12:16 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 5 of 478 (774314)
12-16-2015 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-16-2015 8:10 AM


Faith

"We're born into the sin nature and we don't waste any time adding our own miserable sins to the mix."

I took this from your rant.

What you are saying then is God creates us as sinners and then condemns us for being what he created. Right?

Unless we accept that it is good to profit from the murder of an innocent man that is. Right?

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 8:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Phat
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Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 6 of 478 (774318)
12-16-2015 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 6:27 AM


Only One I Am
Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

There are no innocent. None are righteous. God punished the sacrificial lamb on behalf of the guilty(all of us)
GIA,replying to Faith writes:

What you are saying then is God creates us as sinners and then condemns us for being what he created.

We condemned ourselves. God merely foresaw it and thus had the sacrificial lamb as Plan A from the beginning, even before Lucifer decided to raise up and become satan.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 6:27 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 10:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 7 of 478 (774319)
12-16-2015 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 9:10 AM


Was his condemnation of you that made him have to sacrifice himself in the first place also a gift?

Would you condemn someone and then turn around and die for them using an immoral tenet that says that people should profit from the punishment of an innocent person instead of a guilty one?

We condemned ourselves through free will. why is Jesus death immoral? Who is the judge anyway? The problem with your line of thinking (which happens often with Gnostics) is that you claim the right to judge.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 9:10 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 10:27 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 8 of 478 (774320)
12-16-2015 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
12-16-2015 10:04 AM


Re: Only One I Am
Phat

"There are no innocent. None are righteous. God punished the sacrificial lamb on behalf of the guilty(all of us"

Then if we are true to our God given programming, he is showing just how unjust his standards are.

Jesus was a human. Not a lamb.

Why are there none innocent or righteous if God wants some?

Why is he only creating guilty and un-righteous souls?

"We condemned ourselves."

If we condemn ourselves then we can set the sentence and free ourselves without having some innocent person suffer for us. Right?

BTW, that is a really stupid statement and beneath your IQ.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-16-2015 10:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Admin, posted 12-16-2015 10:32 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 9 of 478 (774321)
12-16-2015 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
12-16-2015 10:09 AM


Phat

Is this not saying that you have the right to judge?

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Why would you want to let someone else set your morality without you understanding why you hold certain morals?

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilee


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 12-16-2015 10:09 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
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(2)
Message 10 of 478 (774322)
12-16-2015 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 10:23 AM


Re: Only One I Am
Greatest I am writes:

BTW, that is a really stupid statement and beneath your IQ.

From the Forum Guidelines:

  1. The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

Discussion should be focused on the substance of what is said. You demonstrate something is stupid by your evidence and arguments, in which case nothing more need be said.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 10:23 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 10:40 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 11 of 478 (774323)
12-16-2015 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Admin
12-16-2015 10:32 AM


Re: Only One I Am
There is no way such a belief can be sincere but I take your point.

My bad.

-------------

Phat

Apologies.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Admin, posted 12-16-2015 10:32 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

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 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-16-2015 10:53 AM Greatest I am has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 12 of 478 (774325)
12-16-2015 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 10:40 AM


Re: Only One I Am
Phat

Apologies.

I've no problem with your passion and sincerity but Percy does have a point.
quote:
Discussion should be focused on the substance of what is said. You demonstrate something is stupid by your evidence and arguments, in which case nothing more need be said.
Neither of us agree with the other. Both of us probably think that each others beliefs are warped...so that much can be agreed upon. Beyond that, however....why do we think and believe the way that we do?

I've watched many of your YouTube video links...and often watch many contrarian beliefs than my own.

There is no way such a belief can be sincere but I take your point.
What actions must we take to insure that our beliefs are sincere? Perhaps the quest itself is sincere and the beliefs which we take upon ourselves are done truthfully, if perhaps naively.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 10:40 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 1:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26698
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 478 (774332)
12-16-2015 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 9:10 AM


Faith
Why do you start our discussion with a lie?

"He chose to take my punishment on Himself,"

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Father Son and Holy Spirit all agreed of course. But also any part of the Bible has to be read in the light of every other part:

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

HE laid it down. He chose to lay it down. Obedient to the Father, yes, but He nevertheless chose to do it. Presumably He could have refused.

Further, Jesus always said that he was doing his fathers work and not his own.

He said that in the context of His obedience during His life, because He was being the Perfect Man for our sake, giving the example of obedience and human righteousness, but of course He was obeying the Father in dying for us too. "I lay down my life for the sheep." That doesn't mean He didn't choose to do it.

You say, that his forgiveness was a gift. Was his condemnation of you that made him have to sacrifice himself in the first place also a gift?

Would you condemn someone and then turn around and die for them using an immoral tenet that says that people should profit from the punishment of an innocent person instead of a guilty one?

We violated God's law. Condemnation is the just response. The gift is to save us from our deserved just condemnation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 9:10 AM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 12-16-2015 12:58 PM Faith has responded
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 12-16-2015 3:58 PM Faith has responded

    
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 14 of 478 (774337)
12-16-2015 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
12-16-2015 12:16 PM


Faith

Now you lie again by saying chosen means a consensus.

And for that you hide behind a Trinity concept that no one understands since the three do not all share the same information which make the concept quite a foolish one.

You hide in fantasy and the supernatural while ignoring the immorality of you profiting from the murder of an innocent man.

I guess all these are out of context as well.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Satan has you too strongly in hand for me. I give up.

Regards
DL


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 12:16 PM Faith has responded

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 Message 17 by Admin, posted 12-16-2015 1:10 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 12-16-2015 4:15 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
kbertsche
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Posts: 1424
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 15 of 478 (774338)
12-16-2015 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
12-16-2015 6:27 AM


GIA writes:

Jesus and his sacrifice is Satanís test of manís morality.


No.

Justice is when the guilty is punished. Injustice is when the innocent is punished.

Yes.

Jesus, if you accept him as your savior, is you punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.

It is God the Father punishing the innocent instead of the guilty, with the innocent party willingly accepting the punishment.

Most, perhaps all Christians believe the dogma that says that it is good to accept Jesusís sacrifice.

Yes.

That is exactly like saying that it is good to somehow gain from punishing an innocent man.

It is certainly good for the guilty person.

If you believe the Christian dogma of substitutionary atonement, then you pass Satanís test and are ready for hell.

No.

Edited by kbertsche, : Cleanup formatting


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Ė Albert Einstein

ďI am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.Ē Ė Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
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