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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 719
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 436 of 478 (776646)
01-17-2016 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by Faith
01-17-2016 8:18 PM


You linked me to Paul L. Maier jr.
He has always talked about what a great blessing the sincere Constantine was to "the church".

We all heard his voice a million times during the Da Vinci code obsession. The Da Vinci Code was an easy straw man to kick down.

He will play up the relatively small incidents against Christians during the pagan Roman empire, and ignore everything that happened after the "conversion" of Constantine.

The Manicheans survived the pagan-Roman persecutions easily. Not so after Constantine's conversion. Maier doesn't seem to care to notice that his preferred brand of "Christianity" (the Roman brand he and that website follow) wouldn't and couldn't win the battle of ideas.

The Christianity (of the majority of Americans) of today wouldn't be more than 2% of the United States if it wasn't imposed long ago. And Maier knows it. That why he is in love with the big myth that Constantine was a great turning point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Faith, posted 01-17-2016 8:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 719
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 437 of 478 (776647)
01-17-2016 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by Faith
01-17-2016 8:18 PM


Re: Paul L. Maier is in love with Constantine
quote:

NO idea what you are talking about. Paul Maier was the author of the review of Moss' book. Where did he say anything about Dan Brown and Constantine? Please provide quotes and links if necessary. You write so disconnectedly I can't follow you. You write gobbledegook. That website is Christian Research Institute, it's not run by Paul Maier. They merely included his article about Moss.

The Da Vinci Code: Fact or Fiction? Mass Market Paperback Ė April 19, 2004

by Hank Hanegraaff (Author), Paul Maier (Author

http://www.amazon.com/...Da-Vinci-Code-Fiction/dp/1414302797

quote:

but Constantine was a convert; he couldn't do enough for the church; he's the one who summoned the First Ecumenical Council. In the session at Nicea, he paid for the travel expenses, lodging expenses of all the churchmen coming across the empire, 300 strong. You can just see how the truth is manipulated continually in this novel.
http://www.lutheranhour.org/sermon.asp?articleid=3258&mod...

People were eventually killed in the tens of millions over these stupid terminological differences that the "Church Councils" obsessed over.

Nicaea wasn't just a bogus theological debate, it was a political movement.

That is the persecution we should worry about.

Again, what happened to the Manicheans?

Who?

Why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Faith, posted 01-17-2016 8:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by Faith, posted 01-17-2016 10:39 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
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LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 719
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 438 of 478 (776649)
01-17-2016 10:17 PM


Paul Maier makes a big deal about the specific Nicaea vote.
I remember seeing him like 5000 times on T.V. times make a dramatic point about the 316 to 2 vote at Nicaea (sometimes he said "300 to 2") like it proved anything.

The whole "ecumenical council" was totally stacked. No Manichean bishops we there.(yes Manicheans had them though!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faustus_of_Mileve

Look at real history of Manichean's getting killed in the 4th century.

https://books.google.com/books?id=D5TbBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA151&l...

It's real. This shows exactly what happened to the Manicheans.

Put "close vote 300 to 2 paul maier" into google.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=close+vote+300+to+2+...

The whole Council was stacked with (religious)Roman Catholics (but not all from Rome). Arius abstained and 2 other Libyan bishops voted against the majority. They all had to go into exile after.

Nicaea was religious fraud, democratic fraud, and it was a murderous political play.

1000 years of bloody darkness was just about to begin.


Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by Faith, posted 01-17-2016 10:45 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24503
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 439 of 478 (776651)
01-17-2016 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by LamarkNewAge
01-17-2016 8:41 PM


Re: Paul L. Maier is in love with Constantine
quote:

NO idea what you are talking about. Paul Maier was the author of the review of Moss' book. Where did he say anything about Dan Brown and Constantine? Please provide quotes and links if necessary. You write so disconnectedly I can't follow you. You write gobbledegook. That website is Christian Research Institute, it's not run by Paul Maier. They merely included his article about Moss.

The Da Vinci Code: Fact or Fiction? Mass Market Paperback Ė April 19, 2004

by Hank Hanegraaff (Author), Paul Maier (Author

http://www.amazon.com/...Da-Vinci-Code-Fiction/dp/1414302797

quote:

but Constantine was a convert; he couldn't do enough for the church; he's the one who summoned the First Ecumenical Council. In the session at Nicea, he paid for the travel expenses, lodging expenses of all the churchmen coming across the empire, 300 strong. You can just see how the truth is manipulated continually in this novel.
http://www.lutheranhour.org/sermon.asp?articleid=3258&mod...

As usual I can't tell what you are trying to say. You show that Maier collaborated with Hanegraaff on a book denouncing "The Da Vinci Code," which proves what? Maier and Hanegraaff obviously agree about that book and Moss' book. Your point is? Why did you quote that paragraph abpve? It certainly doesn't prove your claim that Maier "loves Constantine," it is meant to answer some outrageous claims by Dan Brown about Constantine's role in the church, first saying that he couldn't have had anything to do with the Biblical canon because that was already established before he came along; and then going on to describe Constantine's zeal for his new religion, which prompted him to bring about and provide financial support for the Council of Nicea. About which you seem to be insinuating all kinds of things that aren't supported by the facts.

People were eventually killed in the tens of millions over these ****** terminological differences that the "Church Councils" obsessed over.

Here again I have NO idea what you are talking about. What "tens of millions" were killed due to the conclusions of Nicaea? Many of the Church Councils, which in the early days were NOT Roman Catholic in any sense, but conferences attended by the leaders of the hundreds of churches across the empire, were called to resolve important doctrinal disputes, and ended up establishing important doctrine against various of the heresies of the day. The doctrinal conclusions of many of these councils are far from mere terminological differences, but are considered today to be of great importance to the clarity of Christian doctrine against many heresies.

Nicaea wasn't just a bogus theological debate, it was a political movement.

It was neither a "bogus theological debate" NOR "a political movement." It was an important conference of Christian leaders that established important Christian doctrine against various heresies.

That is the persecution we should worry about.

What persecution? A political movement? A bogus theological debate? These persecuted whom? What ARE you talking about?

Again, what happened to the Manicheans?

You can google the term as well as I can.

They were heretics, LNA, sometimes persecuted for it, ended up in China for some period, eventually died out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-17-2016 8:41 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24503
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 440 of 478 (776652)
01-17-2016 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 438 by LamarkNewAge
01-17-2016 10:17 PM


Re: Paul Maier makes a big deal about the specific Nicaea vote.
So you consider the Manichaeans to have been the possessors of truth and the council a fraud because it rejected it? Sorry, history and the Bible are on the side of the judgment of the Church. Nicaea was not a Catholic convention since the Roman Church did not yet exist, the papacy did not yet exist, the superstitious pagan Romanisms that later came to characterized it were not yet in place, it was just the bishopric of Rome at that point and the council voted rightly for the true doctrine and against the heresies. Persecuting the Manichaeans was not a Christian response to the judgement against them, however, I think that can be understood as the beginning of Constantine's true invluence as representative of the power of the Roman Empire, which he bestowed on the Bishop of Rome, with all the pomp and pagan trappings of the Empire.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-17-2016 10:17 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2730
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 441 of 478 (776664)
01-18-2016 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 437 by LamarkNewAge
01-17-2016 8:41 PM


Re: Paul L. Maier is in love with Constantine
You may want to check on the backgrounds of your authors.

I have seen that name, Hank Hanegraff (or Handegraff -- actual name as per Wikipedia is Hank Hanegraaff ; that double vowel to make it long is characteristic of the northern West Germanic dialects, called "Low German" because of the elevation of the land) crop up one two or three decades ago. There was some kind of high-power ministry that he was a part of which then exploded or imploded with a huge amount of acrimony between him and another leading figure. During the time-frame in which I had encountered that name before, it was at the center of a huge fire-storm, which to this confirmed atheist (became an atheist over half a century ago shortly before the traditional age of confirmation) was yet another tempest in a teapot.

In Lindy Hop class, we operated on the basic principle that every move is coming from somewhere (ie, the very first part of a leader's lead is get the motion going). Nobody ever writes anything suddenly from nothing. All authors are coming from somewhere; they all have a past. And every author writes to advance his ideas/agenda/whatever.

For example, you could pick up some books from Christian historical revisionist David Barton and start quoting from them, all the while completely ignoring that he is one of the more audacious "Liars for Jesus".

Now, that does not mean that your authors have not provided reliable information. All that it does mean is that there is a purpose in everything that they write. Which is true of all other authors. That means that we, the readers, must do our own due diligence to verify what we read.

That said, the Council of Nicea was indeed a power play. I recently had some conversations with an Iraqi Jewess who had escape Iraq decades ago (her relatives who returned to try to reclaim their properties all perished). She could not understand the process by which Judaism became Christianity. Sadly, I did not get very far -- I got to the point of showing that Gentiles were getting into these early churches and raising issues such as circumcision being required when we reached the locks near the Albert Docks in Liverpool and that stream was lost.

What I was working towards (and which she never heard) was that there was a gap of three centuries between the very first Christian sects and the Council of Nicea. A helluva lot can happen in three centuries. Look at just one century. George Washington and the cherry tree. "Honest Abe" Lincoln walking several miles to pay back a few pennies. The accretion of layer upon layer of legend upon public figures. Entirely fictional characters and events blooming into life. Full-blown legends can arise within a few generations, if even that long.

For example, from my German lit schooling, the 19th century saw the transitioning from the 18th century classical period into the Romantic Period (after an excursion into Sturm und Drang ("Storm and Stress") epitomized by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe's Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers ("The Sufferings of Young Werther") in which a young man is so overcome by unrequited love that he commits suicide -- the publication of that, Goethe's first novel, unleashed upon Europe a wave of copy-cat teen-age suicides, along with less lethal fashion among males of wearing blue coats with yellow breeches).

OK, after we got over Sturm und Drang, we transitioned into the Romantic Period, which could get really weird. A basic conceit of that period was that of racial memory. Special attention was given to fairy tales and other forms of folk tales -- a by-product of this were the linguistical studies of the Brothers Grimm which were based on a number of folk tales that they collected and later published, sadly the only act that they are still remembered for. That basic Romantic conceit was that these folk tales reached back through the centuries and through the millennia. In reality, they only reached back one or two generations.

The brightest star in the sky is Sol, the sun. Obviously. But the brightest star in the night sky is Sirius, the brightest star in the constellation of Canus Majoris, "Big Dog", which gives Sirius its other name, "the Dog Star". It turns out that Sirius is a binary system, since Sirius has a white dwarf companion, Sirius B, which is invisible to the naked eye. Anthropologists identified an isolated tribe in Africa who had a mythology about Sirius. Then later anthropological contact with that tribe and with their mythology found that that mythology had changed. Now their Sirius-entity suddenly had a small companion. Somehow, the astronomical discovery of Sirius B had found its way to that tribe, who immediately incorporated that discovery into their mythology.

Talking about oral tradition, we have the American Indian mythologies that responded over the years to the incursion of Europeans. The mythologies of the Mandan Indians (central North Dakota) illustrate this: Creation Science and Creation Myths: An Ethnological Perspective by Jeffery JR. Hanson and Jerry E. Hanson (Creation/Evolution, Issue 32, Summer 1993, pp 20-31). Every single generation's mythology responded very rapidly to the newest changes.

So then, that Romantic Era conceit about "folk tales reaching back for generation after generation" is rubbish. Everything, absolutely everything, can change within a single generation. Or even far quicker.

Let's use some extremely simplistic dates and some very simplistic definitions. Jesus was born in the year 1 AD (there was no Year Zero, which leads us to all kinds of acrimony over when the Millennium started, but what the fuck?). In the years 30 to 33 BCE, that dude had his ministry, but in 33 BCE he died.

Then in 325 BCE, Emperor Constantine called a council to decide what true Christianity was. THREE HUNDRED YEARS LATER!!!!!!!!!

I try to think of Faith's position and the position of every other "true believer". And with each generation the idea of an "absolute truth" becomes less and less tenuous. Let's assume that each generation is 30 years. And let us assume that Jesus spoke the truth. In 300 generations, that would have been 100 generations.

Have you ever played that game of "telegraph"? (or "telephone"). That is the model of passing information from one generation to the next. What happens in that game? The message gets garbled very quickly.

In my Scout Troop as a lad, I once played that game. Our Senior Patrol Leader was named "Jerry". I was told "Jerry wears bamboo shorts." (this was in the 60's surfer craze), so I passed it on. That was challenged at the end, but that is what I was given.

So then, in that game of "telephone", the message could get garbled, or it could get replaced by something entirely different and arbitraily.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-17-2016 8:41 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2730
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 442 of 478 (776665)
01-18-2016 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 437 by LamarkNewAge
01-17-2016 8:41 PM


Re: Paul L. Maier is in love with Constantine
At the same time, in the three centuries from Jesus to Constantine, a helluva lot happened.

Why the shift to Sun worship?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-17-2016 8:41 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24503
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 443 of 478 (776667)
01-18-2016 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 441 by dwise1
01-18-2016 2:47 AM


The Council of Nicaea misinterpreted
Then in 325 BCE, Emperor Constantine called a council to decide what true Christianity was. THREE HUNDRED YEARS LATER!!!!!!!!!

I try to think of Faith's position and the position of every other "true believer". And with each generation the idea of an "absolute truth" becomes less and less tenuous. Let's assume that each generation is 30 years. And let us assume that Jesus spoke the truth. In 300 generations, that would have been 100 generations.

Have you ever played that game of "telegraph"? (or "telephone"). That is the model of passing information from one generation to the next. What happens in that game? The message gets garbled very quickly.

You fail to note the major reason none of this resembles the little game of telephone: the fact that the council was called to resolve among other things a doctrinal dispute about the nature of Christ based on the New Testament documents that had been circulating among the churches for those three hundred years, and continued thereafter to circulate, not on anybody's fallible memory. The documents themselves would have been solid evidence of the original text if that question arose, since there would have been hundreds of them that could be compared for the purpose of correcting any small errors that had crept in from the necessity of frequent hand copying. The existence of such documents down the centuries absolutely removes the issues from the realm of imagination and guesswork, and the resulting doctrinal statement therefore expresses the trustworthy understanding of the scriptures of the majority of the Church, which continues to be available to theologians and Bible readers today using the same logical procedures to interpret the same texts. Arius was found to have the defective understanding of the nature of Christ from the same scriptures all the others made use of.

Here's the Wikipedia account of the council:

One purpose of the council was to resolve disagreements arising from within the Church of Alexandria over the nature of the Son in his relationship to the Father: in particular, whether the Son had been 'begotten' by the Father from his own being, and therefore having no beginning, or else created out of nothing, and therefore having a beginning.[11] St. Alexander of Alexandria and Athanasius took the first position; the popular presbyter Arius, from whom the term Arianism comes, took the second. The council decided against the Arians overwhelmingly (of the estimated 250Ė318 attendees, all but two agreed to sign the creed and these two, along with Arius, were banished to Illyria).[12]

There is no reason whatever to think the vote was manipulated in any way, which is what LNA is claiming. The vast majority understood the scriptures to define the nature of Christ according to the Creed that the council produced, which expressed the beliefs of the majority of attendees against those of Arius: Christ begotten not made for starters.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 24503
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 444 of 478 (776668)
01-18-2016 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 441 by dwise1
01-18-2016 2:47 AM


Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
There was another part of your post I meant to answer:

That said, the Council of Nicea was indeed a power play. I recently had some conversations with an Iraqi Jewess who had escape Iraq decades ago (her relatives who returned to try to reclaim their properties all perished). She could not understand the process by which Judaism became Christianity.

But it didn't "become Christianity," or in any conceivable sense that it could be described that way you ought to have been able to explain it even without being a believer. She'd have to be told that the Hebrew scriptures all pointed toward the Messiah Jesus, that that was their purpose and that He fulfilled it all. Obviously you don't believe this so all you succeeded in doing was confirming the poor woman in her misunderstanding.

Sadly, I did not get very far -- I got to the point of showing that Gentiles were getting into these early churches and raising issues such as circumcision being required when we reached the locks near the Albert Docks in Liverpool and that stream was lost.

Eh? It's already odd to use the phrase "Gentiles GETTING INTO THESE early churches, when Paul clearly said he was called by God to take the good news to the Gentiles because the Jews had rejected it. "Raising issues such as circumcision being required" means what? Scripture is clear but I gather you aren't. The Jewish rituals were fulfilled in Christ, and to insist on practicing them is to reject what Christ did to save us.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 445 of 478 (776678)
01-18-2016 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by Faith
01-18-2016 4:00 AM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
Faith writes:

She'd have to be told that the Hebrew scriptures all pointed toward the Messiah Jesus, that that was their purpose and that He fulfilled it all.

Except, of course, neither you or anyone else has ever been able to show that any Old Testament passage refers to Jesus and in fact every single example you or anyone else has put forward has been shown to be either misrepresentation or taking quotes out of context.

However, if you want to continue making such false assertions I will happily start yet another thread where you can once again try to support your position.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Faith, posted 01-18-2016 4:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by Faith, posted 01-18-2016 1:48 PM jar has responded
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Faith
Member
Posts: 24503
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 446 of 478 (776693)
01-18-2016 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by jar
01-18-2016 9:31 AM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
There is no need for another thread to support the two-thousand-year-old understanding of the Church on Christ in the Old Testament.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 9:31 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 2:45 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 447 of 478 (776698)
01-18-2016 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by Faith
01-18-2016 1:48 PM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
Faith writes:

There is no need for another thread to support the two-thousand-year-old understanding of the Church on Christ in the Old Testament.

In other words you can't provide support for your asserted "understanding" as expected.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Faith, posted 01-18-2016 1:48 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by Faith, posted 01-18-2016 3:32 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24503
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 448 of 478 (776701)
01-18-2016 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by jar
01-18-2016 2:45 PM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
Tons of support, jar, so much the fact that you are ignorant of it shows your usual revisionist theology and history for what it is.

Just a couple of comments on the views of the early church fathers should make the point:

Here's the First Link

THE FAMOUS PHRASE OF ST. AUGUSTINE can be taken as typical of the whole Patristic attitude towards the Old Dispensation. Novum Testamentum in Vetere latet. Vetus Testamentum in Novo patet. The New Testament is an accomplishment or a consummation of the Old. Christ Jesus is the Messiah spoken of by the prophets. In Him all promises and expectations are fulfilled. The Law and the Gospel belong together.

And nobody can claim to be a true follower of Moses unless he believes that Jesus is the Lord. Any one who does not recognize in Jesus the Messiah, the Anointed of the Lord, does thereby betray the Old Dispensation itself. Only the Church of Christ keeps now the
right key to the Scriptures, the true key to the prophecies of old. Because all these prophecies are fulfilled in Christ.

St. Justin rejects the suggestion that the Old Testament is a link holding together the Church and the Synagogue. For him quite the opposite is true. All Jewish claims 32 must be formally rejected. The Old Testament no longer belongs to the Jews. It belongs to the Church alone. And the Church of Christ is therefore the only true Israel of God. The Israel of old was but an undeveloped Church. The word ďScripturesĒ itself in early Christian use meant first of all just the Old Testament and in this sense obviously this word is used in the Creed: ďaccording to the Scriptures,Ē i.e. according to the prophecies and promises of the Old Dispensation.
288.

Augustine on Christ in the scriptures:

From what He preached to the disciples on the Road to Emmaus:

He revealed to them the meaning of the Scriptures and showed how it was necessary that the Christ should fulfil all that had been written about him in te books of the Law of Moses, in the Prophets, and in the Psalms. The Lord went through the whole Old Testament. He seemed to span it all in his embrace.

The Scriptures are in fact, in any passage you care to choose, singing of Christ, provided we have ears that are capable of picking out the tune. The Lord opened the minds of the Apostles so that they understood the Scriptures. That he will open our minds too is our prayer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 2:45 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 449 of 478 (776702)
01-18-2016 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by Faith
01-18-2016 3:32 PM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
Bring any support you think you can actually muster over to a thread Faith. The issue is not what the can men can try to peddle but rather what can actually be supported.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Faith, posted 01-18-2016 3:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 24503
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


(1)
Message 450 of 478 (776703)
01-18-2016 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by jar
01-18-2016 3:34 PM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
Anyone who refers to Augustine or the other Church Fathers as con men doesn't deserve to be given a moment's regard.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 3:34 PM jar has not yet responded

    
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