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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satanís test of manís morality.
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1359
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 451 of 478 (776708)
01-18-2016 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by jar
01-18-2016 9:31 AM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
jar writes:

Except, of course, neither you or anyone else has ever been able to show that any Old Testament passage refers to Jesus and in fact every single example you or anyone else has put forward has been shown to be either misrepresentation or taking quotes out of context.


What do you think Jesus meant in Jn 5:39 when He said, "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me"?

Wasn't Jesus claiming that the OT referred to Him? Was Jesus mistaken?


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Ė Albert Einstein

ďI am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.Ē Ė Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 9:31 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 8:54 AM kbertsche has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 452 of 478 (776710)
01-18-2016 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by jar
01-18-2016 3:34 PM


Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
The early church fathers plus Kbertsche's quote from John plus a couple from Luke should be much more than enough to show how wrong you are:

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luk 24:44-46 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by jar, posted 01-18-2016 3:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 8:55 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 453 of 478 (776731)
01-19-2016 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by kbertsche
01-18-2016 9:36 PM


vague statements offer little value
If Jesus did say that then yes, he was mistaken.

Remember that the author(s) of the gospel of John were writing a revisionist document trying to market a different picture of the character Jesus and that he(they) also often went from quoting to editorial comment with no indication that it was not an actual quote from Jesus.

Also note that as was so often the case, no details were included; no list of verses or passages that could then be tested to verify or refute the assertion.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by kbertsche, posted 01-18-2016 9:36 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by kbertsche, posted 01-19-2016 6:44 PM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 454 of 478 (776732)
01-19-2016 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 452 by Faith
01-18-2016 11:08 PM


adding additional vague statements offers little value
As pointed out above, notice no specifics are included so that the assertions could be verified.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by Faith, posted 01-18-2016 11:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by Faith, posted 01-19-2016 12:39 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 455 of 478 (776743)
01-19-2016 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by jar
01-19-2016 8:55 AM


The point has been fully made
As pointed out above, notice no specifics are included so that the assertions could be verified.

The assertions are that the Church believes Christ was the subject of the Old Testament, and that was amply proved by the scripture quotes given by kbertsche and by me and by the quotes from the early church fathers. That is, Jesus Himself said, and the Church has believed from the earliest days, that the OT is about Him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 8:55 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 12:43 PM Faith has responded
 Message 457 by Bliyaal, posted 01-19-2016 1:47 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 456 of 478 (776744)
01-19-2016 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by Faith
01-19-2016 12:39 PM


Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
I don't doubt folk believed and tried to market such things but that says absolutely nothing about whether or not such a belief could be in anyway justified or true.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Faith, posted 01-19-2016 12:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by Faith, posted 01-19-2016 2:03 PM jar has responded

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 94 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 457 of 478 (776747)
01-19-2016 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by Faith
01-19-2016 12:39 PM


Re: The point has been fully made
The assertions are that the Church believes Christ was the subject of the Old Testament

Oh really? Let's take a look at it. You wrote :

She'd have to be told that the Hebrew scriptures all pointed toward the Messiah Jesus, that that was their purpose and that He fulfilled it all.

Not quite the same thing isn't it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by Faith, posted 01-19-2016 12:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Faith, posted 01-19-2016 2:08 PM Bliyaal has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 458 of 478 (776749)
01-19-2016 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by jar
01-19-2016 12:43 PM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
I don't doubt folk believed and tried to market such things but that says absolutely nothing about whether or not such a belief could be in anyway justified or true.

If Jesus' saying it and the Church Fathers affirming it isn't enough to verify it for you, nothing would.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 12:43 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 2:22 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 459 of 478 (776750)
01-19-2016 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by Bliyaal
01-19-2016 1:47 PM


Re: The point has been fully made
True, not quite what it seems to say but the point I intended was to answer her wondering about how Christianity took over from Judaism, and the answer is that Christianity reads the Hebrew scriptures as all pointing to the Messiah Jesus. What I actually wrote doesn't make it clear that I was talking about what Christianity teaches that sets us apart from Judaism's reading of the Hebrew scriptures. You are right the statement implies more but all that was intended was this much and this much got answered. I just left out the subject I had in mind, which should be inserted into the original statement as follows:

She'd have to be told that CHRISTIANITY TEACHES THAT the Hebrew scriptures all pointed toward the Messiah Jesus, that that was their purpose and that He fulfilled it all.

I wasn't intending to invite a debate on the truth of the Church's beliefs, with her or with anyone here, I just wanted to answer her question.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Bliyaal, posted 01-19-2016 1:47 PM Bliyaal has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 460 of 478 (776752)
01-19-2016 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by Faith
01-19-2016 2:03 PM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
Faith writes:

If Jesus' saying it and the Church Fathers affirming it isn't enough to verify it for you, nothing would.

Actually Faith, what would satisfy me would be ANY evidence that it was true but as been shown here at EvC repeatedly not one single Old Testament verse can be shown to relate to Jesus.

Unsupported assertions of course carry no weight and rightly so. Hell, some Christians even believe nonsense like a young earth or that evolution is not a fact or that one of the Biblical Flood myths actually happened.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by Faith, posted 01-19-2016 2:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by Faith, posted 01-19-2016 6:29 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 461 of 478 (776759)
01-19-2016 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by jar
01-19-2016 2:22 PM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
Actually Faith, what would satisfy me would be ANY evidence that it was true but as been shown here at EvC repeatedly not one single Old Testament verse can be shown to relate to Jesus.

Funny then that millions of us believe hundreds of them do, and with Jesus and Augustine and other church fathers affirming it we have pretty good evidence I'd say. Possibly a matter of having the ears to hear?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 2:22 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 9:07 PM Faith has responded

    
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1359
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 462 of 478 (776760)
01-19-2016 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by jar
01-19-2016 8:54 AM


Re: vague statements offer little value
jar writes:

If Jesus did say that then yes, he was mistaken.
Remember that the author(s) of the gospel of John were writing a revisionist document trying to market a different picture of the character Jesus and that he(they) also often went from quoting to editorial comment with no indication that it was not an actual quote from Jesus.

Also note that as was so often the case, no details were included; no list of verses or passages that could then be tested to verify or refute the assertion.


Interesting perspective.

I believe all of the gospel writers made claims that the OT spoke of Jesus, as did Paul (e.g. 1 Cor 15:3ff: Christ died, etc, "according to the Scriptures").

So do you take the position that all of this was first-century revisionism, including the very early creed in 1 Cor 15? (Even skeptics such as Bart Ehrman date this creed to just a few years after the crucifixion.)

Edited by kbertsche, : Clarification


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Ė Albert Einstein

ďI am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.Ē Ė Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 8:54 AM jar has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 463 of 478 (776767)
01-19-2016 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by Faith
01-19-2016 6:29 PM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
Faith writes:

Funny then that millions of us believe hundreds of them do, and with Jesus and Augustine and other church fathers affirming it we have pretty good evidence I'd say. Possibly a matter of having the ears to hear?

It's not that funny (sad perhaps) that millions believe such nonsense. Many people accept unsupported assertions without question. In fact that is the whole base of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

But the fact remains, so far no one has every been able to support any example presented of an Old Testament that refers to Jesus.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Faith, posted 01-19-2016 6:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by GDR, posted 01-19-2016 10:42 PM jar has responded
 Message 466 by Faith, posted 01-19-2016 11:22 PM jar has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 464 of 478 (776770)
01-19-2016 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by jar
01-19-2016 9:07 PM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
jar writes:

But the fact remains, so far no one has every been able to support any example presented of an Old Testament that refers to Jesus.

I take a middle of the road position on this question. I don't see anything in the OT that specifically refers to Jesus but there is a great deal that refers to Israel itself. I understand that Jesus' self understanding led Him to believe that He was standing in for the nation of Israel, and so that even though things like the suffering servant in Isaiah, or the lament in Psalm 22 were written about Israel itself Jesus saw Himself standing in for Israel in these accounts. His quoting Psalm 22 on the cross was to draw attention to the His belief that this is what was happening.

However again, I don't see any clear examples of specific OT quotes where the writer specifically saw the messiah coming or acting in the way that Jesus did. Jesus however through an inspired knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures saw them in a different light than any of His fellow Jews. In the end He is crucified and has just become another failed messiah like others before and after Him, except one that is apparently was more deluded than most in that He saw Himself as embodying the return of Yahweh to the Jewish nation.

That is where His followers believed it to have ended, which it would have if it wasn't for the fact that God resurrected Jesus thus vindicating the criminal's death that He had endured and at the same time affirming His life and message.

So again, although I don't see Jesus as being specifically prophesied about in the OT I do see him as being the climax of fulfilment of the OT narrative, which I contend is also the position of the NT authors.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 9:07 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 11:14 PM GDR has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 465 of 478 (776771)
01-19-2016 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by GDR
01-19-2016 10:42 PM


Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
GDR writes:

In the end He is crucified and has just become another failed messiah like others before and after Him, except one that is apparently was more deluded than most in that He saw Himself as embodying the return of Yahweh to the Jewish nation.

That is where His followers believed it to have ended, which it would have if it wasn't for the fact that God resurrected Jesus thus vindicating the criminal's death that He had endured and at the same time affirming His life and message.

So again, although I don't see Jesus as being specifically prophesied about in the OT I do see him as being the climax of fulfilment of the OT narrative, which I contend is also the position of the NT authors.

Except, of course, for the fact that none of the Jewish Messiah prophecies concern a Messiah who does not rule bodily as a Prince or King. Should Jesus actually return then it might be claimed that he really is the Jewish Messiah; but according to the New Testament stories that is not what happened.

Yes, I agree that the first generation followers of Jesus did likely view him as the Messiah but only by totally revising the Jewish understanding and writings on the subject and that they marketed the cult of Jesus based on those revisions.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by GDR, posted 01-19-2016 10:42 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by GDR, posted 01-20-2016 2:05 AM jar has responded

  
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