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Topic: Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 466 of 478 (776772)
01-19-2016 11:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 463 by jar 01-19-2016 9:07 PM
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Evidence in links at Jews for Jesus, plus edit added for clarification
Many people accept unsupported assertions without question. In fact that is the whole base of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. They are not unsupported at all, they have been defended by many able theologians down the centuries. You don't accept the arguments but millions of us do; there is nothing unsupported about them. Here, try a page of links to arguments on the subject from Jews for Jesus. Here's one of the links: "365 Prophecies" . I'm sure you dismiss all of them if only on the basis that they aren't direct prophetic statements. Nevertheless the Church down the centuries has regarded them as prophecies, fools that we are, because the New Testament treats them as prophecies. ABE 1/20/16: A few posts down Admin emphasizes that bare links are not acceptable, which I think refers to this post. In this case I have to point out that links are the whole thing here. The page of "365 Prophecies" is a list of quotes of that many Old Testament references as links, followed by the New Testament fulfillments, as links, as follows:
Tanach Reference Prophecy Fullfilment Genesis 3:15 Seed of a woman (virgin birth) Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:18-20 Genesis 3:15 He will bruise Satan's head Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 3:8 Genesis 5:24 The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated Mark 6:19 Genesis 9:26-27 The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem. Luke 3:36 Genesis 12:3 As Abraham's seed, will bless all nations Acts 3:25,26 Genesis 12:7 The Promise made to Abraham's Seed Galatians 3:16 Genesis 14:18 A priest after Melchizedek Hebrews 6:20 Genesis 14:18 A King also Hebrews 7:2 Genesis 14:18 The Last Supper foreshadowed Matthew 26:26-29 Genesis 17:19 The Seed of Isaac Romans. 9:7 Etc. The point is to illustrate the hundreds of references in the OT treated as prophecies in the New Testament. You have to read the links to get the message, there's nothing much I could add in my own words to make it any clearer. Also, I keep emphasizing the millions of believers in these things because jar's point of view is so far from what Christianity teaches, even possibly unique to him since I've never heard of half of what he says except from him, it seems important to point out that there is a traditional standard body of understanding held by a great number of believers down the centuries, just in case some readers don't know enough about these things to realize how completely jar's opinions are his own and represent no known branch of Christianity. GDR's beliefs are also far from the main line of traditional Christian understanding, but he does at least have a modern source of his opinions in N T Wright. Still a revisionist, still not in the main line of Christian thought. I think these simple statistics do say something substantial about the topic. I referred to the views of the early "church fathers" as evidence earlier. Perhaps should have repeated this since it's what I had in mind when I mentioned "able theologians" supporting this point of view. And kbertsche and I both referred to Bible verses as evidence of the standard understanding as well. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 463 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 9:07 PM | | jar has not replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 468 by Admin, posted 01-20-2016 8:29 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 467 of 478 (776774)
01-20-2016 2:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 465 by jar 01-19-2016 11:14 PM
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Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
jar writes: Except, of course, for the fact that none of the Jewish Messiah prophecies concern a Messiah who does not rule bodily as a Prince or King. That was certainly the understanding of the Jews at that time but Jesus saw it differently which is clear in the Gospel, with statements like the first shall be last etc. It does harken back to the vision of Israel as a suffering servant. Jesus led a kingdom movement but of a kingdom "not from this world". It is a kingdom that is to reflect God's love, peace and justice, or a kingdom called to serve God's creation.
jar writes: Should Jesus actually return then it might be claimed that he really is the Jewish Messiah; but according to the New Testament stories that is not what happened. ...but a resurrected Jesus did return according to the Gospels.
jar writes: Yes, I agree that the first generation followers of Jesus did likely view him as the Messiah but only by totally revising the Jewish understanding and writings on the subject and that they marketed the cult of Jesus based on those revisions. I agree that they revised the Jewish understanding of the writings but they revised them in the way that Jesus had. In what way do you see them revising the writings themselves. You then launch into your usual patronizing comments such as: "that they marketed the cult of Jesus based on those revisions". First off, they had nothing to gain but a great deal to lose by becoming followers of Jesus. Secondly why on Earth would they consider a man who had died a criminal's death, without ever having had any military success, or have even mounted a campaign against the enemy as their messiah? They claim that it is because He was resurrected.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
This message is a reply to: | | Message 465 by jar, posted 01-19-2016 11:14 PM | | jar has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 469 by jar, posted 01-20-2016 9:33 AM | | GDR has replied |
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Admin
Director Posts: 13023 From: EvC Forum Joined: 06-14-2002 Member Rating: 1.9
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Message 468 of 478 (776791)
01-20-2016 8:29 AM
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Reply to: Message 466 by Faith 01-19-2016 11:22 PM
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Moderator Ruling
I rule that for this discussion it is fact that millions and perhaps billions, including theologians of great insight and intellect, have believed as you do. I also rule that the argument that millions and perhaps billions have believed as you do cannot be used to support your points. Neither can unsupported assertions and links. You must present the evidence and arguments in your own words. From the Forum Guidelines:
- Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
- Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
-- | Percy | | EvC Forum Director |
This message is a reply to: | | Message 466 by Faith, posted 01-19-2016 11:22 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 469 of 478 (776796)
01-20-2016 9:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 467 by GDR 01-20-2016 2:05 AM
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Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
GDR writes: ...but a resurrected Jesus did return according to the Gospels. But did not rule and was not a Prince or King or leader of Israel.
GDR writes: You then launch into your usual patronizing comments such as: "that they marketed the cult of Jesus based on those revisions". First off, they had nothing to gain but a great deal to lose by becoming followers of Jesus. Secondly why on Earth would they consider a man who had died a criminal's death, without ever having had any military success, or have even mounted a campaign against the enemy as their messiah? They claim that it is because He was resurrected. But many other people in the Bible stories were also resurrected so the simple fact of resurrection is unrelated to any Messianic claims. Jesus was in no way unique when considering either his death or his resurrection. But wait...there's more. There was the Ascension and the promise from Jesus that during their lifetimes he would return as a warlord and ruler, kick ass and take names and bring about the end of times battles and win them. He would judge and punish and reward. They believed all that. They believed the revolution was imminent. That was the first real crisis of Faith when they all started dying off and yet Jesus had not returned. It was not going to happen in their lifetimes. That was when the revisionism really set in and the Messianic picture had to be modified to something in the unspecified future initially and then to "otherworldly", "Not of THIS world". By 30 years or so after Jesus death it was clear the End was not near and people either had to abandon the Messianic claims or revise the Messianic claims to fit with the reality. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to: | | Message 467 by GDR, posted 01-20-2016 2:05 AM | | GDR has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 470 by GDR, posted 01-20-2016 1:01 PM | | jar has replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 470 of 478 (776806)
01-20-2016 1:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 469 by jar 01-20-2016 9:33 AM
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Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
jar writes: But did not rule and was not a Prince or King or leader of Israel. The disciples would argue that He was King and was ruling, but it wasn't just about Israel, but about the world. The view was that it went back to the original Abrahamic promise that it was to be a blessing for all nations. They saw Him reigning in the manner described metaphorically in the Son of Man accounts of Daniel 7.
jar writes: But many other people in the Bible stories were also resurrected so the simple fact of resurrection is unrelated to any Messianic claims. Jesus was in no way unique when considering either his death or his resurrection.
Resurrection was never the same thing as resuscitation. Lazarus simply had his life extended. The point of resurrection is that Jesus was resurrected into a new bodily form that isn't subject to entropy and which is the first example of the time, whenever it is, that God will renew the whole cosmos.
jar writes: There was the Ascension and the promise from Jesus that during their lifetimes he would return as a warlord and ruler, kick ass and take names and bring about the end of times battles and win them. He would judge and punish and reward. They believed all that. They believed the revolution was imminent. That is just dead wrong. Jesus' message was that their revolutionary ways would result in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. He called them to love their enemies, turn the other cheek etc. Many Jews at that time believed in resurrection but there is no evidence of any belief that one person would be resurrected ahead of the general resurrection at the end of time. There is nothing in the Hebrew Scriptures that would cause anyone to make up an account of the resurrection as written in the Gospels. The Maccabees talked about being resurrected after actually ruling for nearly a century, but nobody thought of suggesting that it would happen until the end of time. The faith has always been in the belief that God resurrected Jesus and without that belief their is no rational reason for them to carry on with the movement that Jesus had started.
jar writes: That was the first real crisis of Faith when they all started dying off and yet Jesus had not returned. It was not going to happen in their lifetimes.
They probably did believe that Jesus would return in their life times in just the same way that Faith and others seem to think that His return is imminent now. It is human nature to predict such things.
jar writes: That was when the revisionism really set in and the Messianic picture had to be modified to something in the unspecified future initially and then to "otherworldly", "Not of THIS world". By 30 years or so after Jesus death it was clear the End was not near and people either had to abandon the Messianic claims or revise the Messianic claims to fit with the reality. The thrust of their message was not about His imminent return but about His message that His Kingdom had been established and that Jesus followers were to embody Christ's message of God's love, peace and justice to the world. Certainly humans, being humans, have as often as not failed miserably in doing that, but their are many who faithfully do reflect that image of God in their lives.
jar writes: By 30 years or so after Jesus death it was clear the End was not near and people either had to abandon the Messianic claims or revise the Messianic claims to fit with the reality. No, they just had to say that it hasn't happened yet. Sure, there is ambiguity and the writers of the epistles were the earliest theologians, who just like theologians today were working at understanding the message of the Gospels, which is a direct result of the Gospel message that God resurrected Jesus.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
This message is a reply to: | | Message 469 by jar, posted 01-20-2016 9:33 AM | | jar has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 471 by jar, posted 01-20-2016 3:12 PM | | GDR has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 471 of 478 (776813)
01-20-2016 3:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 470 by GDR 01-20-2016 1:01 PM
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Re: Your point has been fully made but was still pointless
The Epistle predate the Gospels, at least the known Gospels. Paul in particular is simply building a franchise and his message constantly evolved based on audience and era. Look at the evolution of the story of Paul's encounter as it expanded with retelling and the changes in the Great Commission over time. In both cases a relatively straight forward account got wooified and changed. They expected the end times because Jesus said the would happen during their lifetimes. Much of Paul's objections to marriage seem to revolve around the imminent end times, there simply would not be time to raise kids before the end. And nowhere does resuscitation enter into any of the stories of others resurrected. They are dead and made alive. It's not just one instance either but many. Look at the apocalyptic writings of the era. They do not show some cumbaya let's all get together and be alright times, they call for war and killings and punishment and suffering. Even the Gospels point to that.
quote: John 5 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to: | | Message 470 by GDR, posted 01-20-2016 1:01 PM | | GDR has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 472 by GDR, posted 01-20-2016 6:08 PM | | jar has not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 472 of 478 (776822)
01-20-2016 6:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 471 by jar 01-20-2016 3:12 PM
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jar writes: The Epistle predate the Gospels, at least the known Gospels. Paul in particular is simply building a franchise and his message constantly evolved based on audience and era. Some Epistles predate all of the Gospels and some were written at the same time. However that isn't the whole story. For eaxample Luke starts off his Gospel this way. quote: 1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
The Gospels are compiled from previous material, possibly "Q" for example, which presumably would have begun shortly after the resurrection and there may well have been accounts that were written during Jesus' life time. The fact that the Gospels as we know them were put together after some of the Epistles is immaterial. Paul would have received his information from the witnesses and from whatever written material there was at the time.
jar writes: Look at the evolution of the story of Paul's encounter as it expanded with retelling and the changes in the Great Commission over time. In both cases a relatively straight forward account got wooified and changed. They expected the end times because Jesus said the would happen during their lifetimes. Sure, there are differences between the authors in their understanding. Would you rather they had colluded. The reference that Jesus made about what you refer to as end times was in reality His message to the revolutionaries that were they were doing was going to bring about the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple which did happen in 70AD. I am not saying it took supernatural ability to know that but just a clear understanding of the politics of the age and knowing what the Roman response would be.
jar writes: Look at the apocalyptic writings of the era. They do not show some cumbaya let's all get together and be alright times, they call for war and killings and punishment and suffering. Even the Gospels point to that. quote: John 5 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. I have already agreed that the primary Jewish belief in that era was that Yahweh would help them to militarily defeat their enemies. Jesus' message was that it wasn't really the Romans that were the enemy but "evil" itself and that evil is ultimately only defeated by love. The evil of the crucifixion was overcome by the love of the resurrection. I looked at several translations of vs 29 and none of them used the word damnation. All the other translations I looked at used condemnation or judgement rather than damnation, which is a verey different thing.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
This message is a reply to: | | Message 471 by jar, posted 01-20-2016 3:12 PM | | jar has not replied |
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LamarkNewAge
Member Posts: 2337 Joined: 12-22-2015 Member Rating: 1.2
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Message 473 of 478 (776876)
01-21-2016 9:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 443 by Faith 01-18-2016 3:23 AM
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quote:
There is no reason whatever to think the vote was manipulated in any way, which is what LNA is claiming. The vast majority understood the scriptures to define the nature of Christ according to the Creed that the council produced, which expressed the beliefs of the majority of attendees against those of Arius: Christ begotten not made for starters.
The vote would have been different if not for the fact that the only people allowed to vote were Roman Catholics. James, the brother of Jesus (not to mention the apostles and Jesus himself) was considered a "heretic" by every single one of those bishops in 325 AD.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 443 by Faith, posted 01-18-2016 3:23 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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LamarkNewAge
Member Posts: 2337 Joined: 12-22-2015 Member Rating: 1.2
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Message 474 of 478 (776878)
01-21-2016 9:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 444 by Faith 01-18-2016 4:00 AM
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Re: Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
quote:
Hippity hoppin Judaizing revisionist history
That's what the Catholics called the followers of James and the Apostles. I've just about had it with people ignoring history and making up whatever they want. Faith is defending Roman "church" but just not calling it Catholic. Here is a historian (with theology like Faith, and frankly I don't agree with a lot of what he says) and even he admits that James (as represented in Acts 15 and 21) was a heretic by the 2nd century and afterwards. (He gets that part right!)
quote:
Early history of the Christian church from its foundation to the end of the fifth century Louis Duchesne CHAPTER 2 In Palestine, the one sanctuary of the worship of Jahve, the Temple, retained its high prestige. The sacerdotal hierarchy, swayed by the aristocratic Sadducean p.'irty, strictly maintained the ritual observances. But the luxury, the depravity, the religious indifference of these sacerdotal leaders, their subserviency to the Roman authorities, their contempt for the Messianic hope and the doctrine of the resurrection, had alienated from them the affection of the people, and, in the eyes of some, even cast discredit on the Temple itself Some indeed were so much disgusted that they fled from the official sanctuary and its servants, and, afar from the world, devoted them- selves to the service of God and a strict observance of the Law. The Essenes represented this movement : grouped in small communities they lived on the borders of the Dead Sea, near Kngaddi. The Sadducean priests persecuted Jesus Christ and His disciples. As for the Essenes, they lived alongside of the new Faith, and if they did embrace it, it was but slowly. The Pharisees, so often condemned in the Gospels for their hypocrisy, their false zeal, and their peculiar practices, did not form a special sect ; the name was applied generally to all those who were ultra-scrupulous in following the Law, and not the Law only, but the thousand observances with which they had amplified it, attributing as much importance to them as to the fundamental precepts of morality. Still, they were faithful defenders of the Messianic hope and of belief in the resurrection. Beneath their proud and overstrained attachment to details of observance, they had a solid foundation of faith and piety. Amongst them the Gospel made many excellent converts. .... All accounts agree in pointing out as its starting-point a small group of persons living in Jerusalem during the last years of the Emperor Tiberius (30-37 A.D.). These first believers acknowledged the name and doctrine of Jesus of Nazareth, recently con- demned to death by order of the procurator Pilate, at the instigation of the Jewish authorities. Many of them had known Him in life ; all knew that He had been crucified ; all believed also that He had risen from the dead. .... Meanwhile, His faithful followers went about spreading the good news, the Gospel, and thus gathering in the elect. They lived in close spiritual union : the same faith, the same expectation, bound them closely to one another. The leaders were twelve men who, during the preceding years, had lived in His most intimate circle; they had received from Jesus's lips the teaching they imparted in His name, and they could bear witness to His miracles. .... This first group of the faithful were still deeply imbued with the Jewish spirit. Between them and the pious Jews there was scarcely room for dissension. All that the sincerely religious people of their nation believed, hoped, and practised, they also believed, hoped, and practised. They went with the rest to the Temple ; they submitted to the common observances of the Law. One point alone distinguished them : for them the Messiah did not belong to a vague, uncertain future. They had found Him, for He had come and had revealed Himself: and they were sure of seeing Him again soon. Although this first Christian community grew rather rapidly, it soon had to give up the hope of incorporating the main body of Palestinian Jews. Its missionary work came into conflict not only with the ill-will of the religious authorities, but also with public opinion. Opposed in Jerusalem, it spread in other directions .... ...the infant Church gained the most unexpected adherent in the person of Saul of Tarsus, an eager and learned zealot of the Law, and till then a fanatical perse- cutor of the disciples of Jesus. Converted by a vision of the Lord as he journeyed from Jerusalem to Damascus, he joined himself first to the Christians there, and then began to evangelize the kingdom of Arabia. .... The admission of the centurion Cornelius and his companions into the Church roused such strong opposition among the Christians in Jerusalem, that the Apostle Peter found it necessary to confute them ; but he did so only by sheltering himself under a Divine intervention. .... CHAPTER 3 CHAPTER 3 CHAPTER 3 In the early Christian society the most strongly traditional and conservative elements from the Jewish point of view were represented by the converts from the Judaism of Pales- tine, who spoke Aramaic, and were necessarily impervious to external influences. .... When for a time persecution dispersed the community in Jerusalem, some of these converts carried the Gospel to the towns on the Phcnician coast, to the island of Cyprus, and as far as Antioch, There were even some they were natives of Cyprus and Cyrene who went so far as to preach to the " Greeks " of Antioch to men, that is, who however well disposed they may have been towards the God of Israel, yet were not of the circumcision. Many were converted, and formed the nucleus of the Church at Antioch, which quickly became a second centre of Chris- tian development, and especially of evangelization. .... In Antioch was organized the first mission to distant lands. And it was Saul and Barnabas again who were in charge of it. .... After four or five years, the missionaries went back to Antioch, leaving behind, in each town where they had sojourned, a little Christian community .... Saul, who was now called Paul, and his companion Barnabas were warmly welcomed by the Church. The conversions thej' had effected, and particularly their success among the actual pagans, could not but arouse the deepest interest. A problem, however, which had already presented itself in the community of Antioch, now assumed an urgent character. Under what conditions could they accept these new converts, drawn either directly from the heathen ranks or from the Jewish prosehtes? Was it necessary to impose upon them all the religious obligations which bound Jews by birth, and, above all, must they submit to circumcision? Many, and especially the missionaries themselves, thought not. Other influential people were inclined to be stricter. Dissensions arose, and it was agreed to appeal to the apostles and "elders" at Jerusalem. A deputation set out from Antioch for the Holy City, Paul and Barnabas being of the number. At first they met with very decided opposi- tion, as may be imagined in such surroundings. But those in authority, especially Peter, John, and James, the brother of the Lord, sided with Paul and Barnabas, and their view prevailed. Judas Barsabbas and Silas, two members of the Church at Jerusalem, carried a letter notifying this decision to the Church at Antioch. .... The Jewish converts, except in Palestine, were already in a minority, which diminished as time went on. .... He [Paul]set out at once for Asia .... On his way through Lycaonia he picked up a valuable assistant, Timothy, the son of a Greek father and a Jewish mother. He had him circum- cised, for he knew how to bend to circumstances, and had no wish to create unnecessary difficulties .... And besides Ephesus, many other places in Asia Minor were now initiated into the Gospel my.steries. At last the apostle determined to return once more to Syria, but not without first visiting his Christian colonies in Macedonia and Achaia. He wintered at Corinth (57-58 A.D.), and in the following spring, passing through Macedonia and by the coast of Asia, he definitely set sail for Phenicia and Palestine. About the Feast of Pentecost (58 A.D.)^ he arrived at Jerusalem. Paul thus returned to the cradle of Christianity, after long years spent in preaching the Gospel in distant lands, where no one else had as yet brought the " good news." He had laid solid and living foundations throughout the greater part of Asia Minor, Macedonia, and Achaia. Thanks to him, the great towns of Ephesus, Thessalonica, and Corinth, and many others also, had churches glowing with faith, zeal, and charity. What these great achieve- ments had cost him may be imagined ; indeed he tells us something of it in one of his letters;^ besides all the necessary inconveniences of long journeys, hunger and thirst, brigands and shipwrecks, he enumerates the results of his conflicts with the authorities, scourgings, stonings, " stripes above measure." The apostle was also a martyr. No one else had laboured or suffered more for the common faith. He brought to the mother church of Jerusalem the homage of his new foundations, and also, in token of their respectful love, a large tribute in alms. Yet he was far from hopeful as to the welcome awaiting him, and his misgivings, as was soon seen, were but too well founded. The narrow spirit, which Paul's broad - minded tendency had encountered ten years ago, had been over- come in Antioch, but in Jerusalem things were very different. The apostles had long quitted the Holy City. And if in such surroundings there had ever been any men with a wider outlook, they seem to have followed the apostles, and had either migrated to Antioch or had taken to mission work. Thus left to themselves, the old conser- vatives could not but become more inveterately rigid. At their head was James, the brother of the Lord, who had been held in high esteem from the days of the first apostles, and had with them ruled the local church. He was renowned for sanctity and profoundly pious, but deeply attached to Jewish customs, and little inclined to minimize their obligatory character. Over these conflicts and crises the peace-making book of the Acts passes very lightly. .... Paul was welcomed by his friends, and presented himself before James the day after his arrival. There he found the council of " elders " assembled, and he told them of his apostolic journeys, of the churches which he had founded, and no doubt handed over to them at the same time the proceeds of the collection he had made for the needs of the mother-church. When he had finished, they began by congratulating him. Then they called his attention to the great number of Jewish converts,^ to their extreme devotion to the Law, and to the unfortunate reputation which he (Paul) had amongst them. .... But, at any rate, they distributed their hatred with impartiality, for James also, James the Judaizer, the head of the Judaizing Church, suffered from it. In 62 A.D. the high priest Annas the younger, taking advantage of the death of the procurator Festus, summoned James, with several other Christians, before the Sanhedrim, as violators of the Law, and sentenced them to be stoned. This sentence was immediately executed. .... chapter 4 The Judaic- Christians, who, of the two, preferred the Law, and only consented to the evangelization of the Gentiles under exceptional circumstances, were soon out of the main stream of opinion ; in the 2nd century they were classed with heretics. ....
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Chapter 5 .... Towards the middle of the 2nd century, the monarchical episcopate also comes before us as an undisputed fact of received tradition, in the Western Christian com- munities of Rome, Lyons, Corinth, Athens, and Crete, as well as in more Eastern provinces. Nowhere is there a trace of any protest against a sudden and revolutionary change, transferring the government from a college of bishops to that of a single monarchical ruler. From the 2nd century onward in some places at least it was possible for them to name the bishops linking them to the apostles. Hegesippus, who travelled from church to church, made in various places a collection of lists of bishops, or drew them up himself from local recollections and documents. The line of succession of the bishops of Rome dates back to St Peter and St Paul, and is known to us through St Irenaeus ; that of Athens, dating back to Dionysius the Areopagite, is given by St Dionysius of Corinth. In Rome, the episcopal succession was so well known, and its chronology so clear, that it served to fix the date of other events. It was said of different heresies, that they appeared under Anicetus, or Pius, or Hyginus. In the discussion as to the observance of Easter, Irenaeus fixed a date in the same way, going back farther still, to Telesphorus and to Xystus I., that is to the time of Trajan and of St Ignatius. What conclusion can be drawn from all this, if not that the system of government by a monarchical bishop was already in existence, in countries west of Asia, at the time when such books were written as the Shepherd of Hennas or the Second Epistle of Clement, the Teaching of the Apostles, and the First Epistle of St Clement ; and that, therefore, the testimony of these old writers to the col- legiate episcopate does not preclude the existence of the monarchical episcopate? Towards the end of the 2nd century, the author of the Muratorian Canon said of Hermas, that he wrote a short time before, under the episcopate of his brother Pius : nuperrime, temporibus nostris, sedente cathetra (sic) urbis Romae ecclesiae Pio episcopo fratre eius. Thus Hermas seems only to know of the collegiate episcopate, yet writes under a monarchical bishop, his own brother. About the time of Commodus, a Modalist teacher was cited more than once to appear before the ecclesiastical authority of Smyrna. Hippolytus, who recounts the event ^ uses the expression " the priests " (ot irpecr/SvTepoi). Yet it is quite certain that Smyrna then had a bishop. Moreover, the collegiate episcopate, which was certainly the original system in more places than one, was not likely to be the final form : it had to modify itself very soon. Government cannot be carried on by commission, unless presided over by a head who has it well in hand, who inspires it, guides it, and acts in its name. Probably the members of these episcopal colleges in primitive times were rather more on an equality with their president, than are canons of our day with their bishop. According to the rather confused memories which tradition has transmitted to us, they for long retained the power of ordination, which now especially characterises the episcopal dignity. The priests of Alexandria in replacing their dead bishop, not only elected, but also consecrated his successor.- This custom no doubt dated from a time when Egypt had no church but that of Alexandria. It would not be surprising to find that the same circumstances had led to the same results in Antioch, Rome, and Lyons, and in fact, in every place where the local churches had a very wide jurisdiction. We are thus able to explain the custom of designat- ing both the president and his counsellors by a common denomination. We ourselves speak of the clergy, the priests, of a parish, although there is considerable differ- ence between the authority of the parish priest and that of his curates. In like manner, when they spoke of the priests of Rome, or the bishops of Corinth, the term covered both the higher grades of the hierarchy. But the natural course of events tended to concentrate the authority in the hands of one person, and this change, if change there were, was one of those which come about of themselves, insensibly, without anything like a revolu- tion. The president of the episcopal council in Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, and many other places, stood out sufficiently from his colleagues to be separately and easily remembered. The Church of God which " dwells in Rome" may have inherited the supreme authority of its apostolic founders in a diffused form ; this authority concentrated itself in the priest-bishops as a body, and one of them embodied it more specially, and exercised it. Between this president, and the one monarchical bishop of succeeding centuries, there is no difference in principle.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 444 by Faith, posted 01-18-2016 4:00 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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LamarkNewAge
Member Posts: 2337 Joined: 12-22-2015 Member Rating: 1.2
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Message 475 of 478 (776879)
01-21-2016 9:38 PM
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More history showing James' group
Once I get done, about 1/3 of the first 97 pages will be included here (I suspect I will get suspended for this, but Faith can't just keep on acting like the Roman church followed the apostles). I don't agree with the slant of this historian, but at least it's a history that takes notice of who the circle of followers of James was (I'm sure the suthor would ignore it if he could). It wasn't the Roman church, that Faith defends.
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After Jesus Himself, only St Stephen, James, the son of Zebedee, and James the brother of the Lord, are mentioned as suffering the extreme penalty .... On the death of Agrippa I. (44 A.D.) his kingdom had been restored to the procurators. But from 50 A.D. his son, Agrippa II., who was a favourite of the Emperor Claudius, obtained not only the little principality of Chalcis, in Anti-Lebanon, but also was given power of control over the temple, and the privilege of nominating the high priest. Three years later, his principality was exchanged for a kingdom beyond the Jordan, formed for him out of Philip's late tetrarchy, and part of that of Antipas. The Christians had no reason to complain of him. Indeed, during St Paul's trial before the Roman procurator, he showed himself on the whole favourable to the prisoner ; and when St James, the brother of the Lord, was stoned by the order of Hanan the younger the high priest, Agrippa, in his indignation at once deposed the pontiff. And during the insurrection the Christian community took refuge in his domain. This kindly prince hved till lOO A.D. But the position of Palestinian Christianity is peculiar. It should therefore not detain us from a survey of the empire as a whole. Let us see what chances of external security the Church is likely to meet with there. .... CHAPTER IX THE END OF JUDAIC-CHRISTIANITY Death of James, "the brother of the Lord." Insurrection of 66 A.D, The Church's migration from Jerusalem. Revolt of Bar- Kocheba : Aelia Capitolina. Judaic-Christian bishops. The Gospel according to the Hebrews. Connection with other Christians. Hegesippus. Ebionites. Elkesaites. Whilst St Paul's case was being tried in Rome before the imperial tribunal, the Judaic-Christian Church at Jerusalem was passing through a serious crisis. Festus the procurator had just died, and it was some time before his successor Albinus could reach Palestine. This led to an interval of confusion and anarchy. The high-priest at the time was Hanan II., the son of the Hanan (Annas) of the Passion, and a relative of the Ananias men- tioned in the story of St Paul.^ Like them, he detested the " Nazarenes." Eagerly seizing his opportunity, he attacked their local head, James, the " brother of the Lord," a man who seems to have been universally revered in Jerusalem, by Jews as well as Christians. His austerities and his protracted prayers in the Temple were long renowned. The people named him the Just, the bulwark of the people (Obliam). But this did not save him from the malice of the high-priests. Hanan assembled the Sanhe- drim and summoned James, with several others, to appear before it, and obtained a sentence of death against them. James and his companions were stoned near the Temple. Hanan paid dearly for his audacity. The procurator on his arrival from Alexandria was appealed to, and also King Agrippa II., who at once deposed the high-priest. This was 62 A.D. Four years later, under the pro- curator Gcssius Florus, who succeeded Albinus, the long smouldering revolution broke out at Jerusalem. In the autumn of 66 A.D. the Roman garrison was massacred, and insurrection spread rapidly throughout Judaea and the neighbouring countries. Cestius Gallus, the legate of Syria, made an ineffectual attempt to re-take the holy city. In the following year, Vespasian being sent by Nero to repress the revolt, restored Galilee to subjection. But the death of the emperor (68 A.D.) and the troubles which ensued, arrested the process. Jerusalem was a prey to factions, and went through a reign of terror. The high- priest Ananias and all the leaders of the sacerdotal aristo- cracy were massacred by the rioters ; fanatics and brigands contended for the Temple and the fortresses. On all sides anarchy, incendiary fires, and massacre prevailed. The Holy City had become the antechamber of hell. The Christian leaders received a heaven-sent warning,^ and the community decided to leave the town. They took refuge at Pella, in Decapolis, in the kingdom of Agrippa II. Pella was a Hellenic and a pagan town ; but they made the best of it. Long afterwards Julius Africanus (c. 230) re- ported the existence of other Judaic-Christian communities " at Kokhaba beyond the Jordan, and also at Nazareth in Gali- lee. I n the 4th century, there was another at Berea (Aleppo) in north Syria.* The exact time that they migrated, and whether from Jerusalem or from Pella, is unknown.^ This dispersion continued after the war. A return to Jerusalem was out of the question ; it had been so com- pletely razed to the ground, that it was difficult to believe it had ever been inhabited, and for sixty years the camp of the tenth legion {leg. X Fretensis) was the only sign of life. The Emperor Hadrian decided to found a new city on the spot, a pagan city of course, with a temple within the precincts of the ancient sanctuary. This profanation, similar to that of Antiochus Epiphanes, was too much for the scattered remnant of Israel. Simon-bar- Kocheba headed an insurrection, supported by the cele- brated Rabbi Akiba, and gave himself out to be the long- expected Messiah of the Jews. The Roman legion was driven from its camp ; and for some time the Jews held the ruins of their holy city. But Jerusalem was no longer of any military importance ; and the headquarters of the insurgents was at Bether. Near there they were finally crushed, but only after three years of a sanguinary struggle (132 to 135) which ruined and depopulated Palestine. The Judaic-Christians could not accept Bar-Kocheba as the Messiah of Israel ; they refused to join the revolt. This, as may be imagined, brought misfortune upon them, for the insurgents hunted them down remorselessly,^ till the Roman victory gave them peace, and they resumed their obscure existence. Hadrian's plans were carried out. On the ruins of Jerusalem arose the colony of /Elia Capitolina, with its theatres and pagan sanctuaries. Jupiter's Capitol and the emperor's statue profaned the Temple Hill. The Christian holy places did not escape ; a temple of Venus was set up on Calvary. Any Jew found in the new city was doomed to death. The Judaic- Christians could but keep away ; and they did so. The supreme authority in the Judaic-Christian world appears to have long remained in the hands of the kinsfolk of the Saviour : James was the " brother of the Lord " ; Simeon, who succeeded him as head of the Church of Jerusalem, and who lived till the time of Trajan, was also a kinsman of Christ's. Two sons of another " brother of the Lord " called Judas, were denounced to the authorities in Domi- tian's time ; they were sent to Rome, and examined by the emperor himself. He convinced himself that such feeble folk could not be dangerous, and that the Kingdom of Heaven was no menace to the Roman Empire. The two sons of David were sent back home to " preside over the churches."^ Bishop Simeon did not escape so well. Hegesippus reports that he suffered martyrdom under Trajan, Atticus being then (c. 107) governor of Palestine.^ In the days of Julius Africanus, well into the 3rd century, there still survived some of these Desposyni (kinsmen of the Lord), highly esteemed ^ amongst the Judaic-Christians. A list of the ancient bishops of Jerusalem has been pre- served by Eusebius,* who says that the line of succession continued until the Jewish revolt under Hadrian (132 A.D.). The first two are James and Simeon, who bring us down to 107 A.D. ; the remaining thirteen bishops have therefore to be got into twenty-five years. This is a large number, but if we accept the list, and the time-limits given by Eusebius, the natural explanation is that the list includes the bishops, not only of Pella but of other colonies from the primitive Church of Jerusalem. A more interesting relic of these early Christian days would be the Gospel they used, if only we had it in a more complete form. It was of course in Hebrew, or rather was an Aramaic Gospel, translated at a comparatively early date into Greek, when it received the title of Gospel accord- ing to the Hebrews, Ka& 'E^palovs. St Jerome^ often alludes to it ; the Semitic text, which he knew, he some- times identifies with the original Hebrew of St Matthew.^ This suggests that the canonical Gospel of St Matthew bore a marked resemblance to the Gospel of" the Hebrews." Judging by the fragments preserved, however, the differ- ences between them were rather important. This Gospel of the Hebrews appears to have been quite as ancient as our Synoptics, and quite independent of them : it was probably compiled in the community of Pella From Pella came also Aristo, the author of the dialogue of Papiscus and Jason, a propagandist work now lost. It represents a disputation between a Jew and a Judaic- Christian, culminating in the conversion of the Jew. Eusebius derived some information on Bar-Kocheba's revolt from this dialogue which appeared soon after that event.^ The Church of Pella, even with its colonies in Palestine and Syria, cannot be taken as representing the whole of Judaic-Christianity. To some extent everywhere, but more especially in great centres like Alexandria, there were Jewish converts to Christianity among the Jews of the Dispersion, who did not consider themselves absolved from the observance of the Law. They became Christians under shelter of the great doctrinal toleration ^ which pre- vailed in Judaism, but they did not cease to be Jews. Their relations with the other Christians, whose existence they certainly acknowledged, must have been much the same as those which, to the great vexation of Paul, had been authorised by Peter and Barnabas in Antioch. Justin* knew Christians of this type ; he thinks they will be saved, if they do not force Christians of a different origin to adopt their mode of life. He acknowledges, however, that his is not the universal opinion, and that some would not admit the Judaic-Christians to communion. [[[[[[[[[[NOTES ^ Hegesippus, quoted by Eusebius, //. E. iii. 20. 2 Eusebius, H. E. iii. 32. The date, 107 A.D., is that of his Chronicle. ^ Eusebius, H. E. i. 7. * B. E. iv. 5. '" St Epiphanius {Haer. xxix. 9) knew of its existence, but refers to it as though he had not seen it. * St Epiphanius does so also. From the time of Papias, a Hebrew version of Matthew is referred to which no one had seen, but which was, not unnaturally, identified with some such Gospel as that of the Nazarenes. END NOTES] Justin speaks only of individuals : he says nothing of Judaic-Christian communities, nor of their relations with the representatives of the main body of the Church. Ilegesippus, at the close of the 2nd century, goes rather more into detail. He describes the " Church," that is " the Church of Jerusalem," as being, at first, faithful to tradition, but afterwards riddled with heresies. The first of these originated with a certain Thebuthis, who was disappointed at not being elected bishop. According to Hegesippus, these heresies were connected with the different Jewish sects, Essenes, Galileans, Hemero- baptists, Masbotheans, Samaritans, Sadducees, and Pharisees. This list includes rather heterogeneous ele- ments, but broadly speaking the idea is correct, and is confirmed by facts. Like the Judaism from which it sprang, the Judaic-Christian Church attached an exaggerated im- portance to the ordinances of the Law, and was not sufficiently on its guard against doctrinal speculations. Hegesippus was himself a Judaic-Christian. That was the impression of Eusebius, who had read all he wrote ; and it is confirmed by his use of the Gospel of the Hebrews, by his language, which is full of Hebrew words, and by his familiarity with the history of the Church of Jerusalem. He evidently regarded that Church as orthodox and worthy of all respect. But nevertheless he did not feel out of his element in the Corinthian or Roman communi- ties. He investigated their episcopal succession, and the way they preserved primitive traditions. According to him, all their customs were in accordance with what the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord had taught. But the optimist views of Justin and Hegesippus did not affect orthodox tradition. Later, with St Irenaeus and Origen ^ an unfavourable opinion of the Judaic-Christians prevailed. These authors regard Judaic- Christianity as but a sect, the sect of the Ebionites or Ebioneans, '^^loouaioi. This term, which later was derived from the name of an imaginary founder, Ebion, really signified poor. From the beginning, the Judaic- Christians of Syria had been called Nazarenes.^ This name appears in the Acts;^ it was evidently derived from that of the Lord, " Jesus of Nazareth." Possibly they called themselves so, or others called them Ediouim, without intending any disparagement. Does not the Gospel say : "Blessed are the poor!"^ Later, the controversalists of the main body of the Church, proud of their transcendent Christology, connected the notion of poverty of doctrine with the name and used it as a nickname. Origen recognized, though it seems to have escaped St Irenaeus' notice, that in their case it was not a question of any real heresy, such as those of Cerinthus or Carpocrates, but merely of a late survival of an undeveloped primitive Judaic-Christianity. In St Irenaeus' description the Ebionites are characterized by their fidelity to the Mosaic ordinances,* circumcision, and the rest ; they hold Jerusalem in great veneration, and turn towards it to pray ; and their belief that the world was created by God Himself dis- tinguishes them from all the gnostic sects. Above all they cling to the Law ; the Prophets they treat with much subtle explanation.^ So much for their Judaism. As to their Christianity, it was observed that they had but one Gospel, St Matthew,^ that they rejected the epistles of St
[[[[[[[[[NOTES This is the term employed by St Epiphanius, notably in the chapter (xxix.) of his Panariutn devoted to this sect. The name Ebioneans is used by him to denote a particular heretical system of which we shall hear more. St Jerome generally employs the term Nazarenes to denote the Judaic-Christians, but evidently he regards Ebionites and Nazarenes as the same. - Acts xxiv. 5. 2 St Luke vi. 20 ; St Matt. v. 3. * In the account in the Philosophumena^ it is said that Jesus received that name, and the name " The Christ of God," on account of his fidelity to the Law. ^ "Quae autem sunt prophetica, curiosius exponere nituntur.'' * A confusion with the Gospel of the Hebrews. END NOTES] Paul, whom they regarded as an apostate, and that they considered the Saviour as the son of Joseph. On this point, however, opinions differed. Origen says the miraculous birth was accepted by some, but rejected by others. Thus, being shut up in the Law, the Judaic-Christians were led insensibly to separate themselves from the main body of the Church. And in spite of the sympathetic attitude of some individuals, this separation was already apparent by the close of the 2nd century. It had even led to controversy. Towards the end of the 2nd century, a certain Symmachus, an Ebionite, known by his Greek version of the Old Testament, wrote to defend the position taken up by his co-religionists against other Christians.! There were Ebionites scattered almost everywhere in the great Jewish colonies. In Trajan's time the Greek version of their Gospel was already known in Egypt ; and the name given to it, " Gospel according to the Hebrews," was doubtless intended to distinguish it from another Gospel accepted there, " the Gospel accord- ing to the Egyptians," used in the Christian community of Alexandria. Still furtheroff, amongst the peoples of southern Arabia where Judaism had already made, and continued to make, many converts the preaching of the Gospel had taken the Judaic-Christian form. Pantaenus, who visited them about the time of Marcus Aurelius, found the Hebrew Gospel ^ in use, and was told that the Apostle Bartholomew, the first missionary to these distant lands, had brought it to them.
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[NOTES 1 Eusebius, H. E. vi. i6, 17, where we learn that Origen had these books from a lady named Juliana (of Ca^sarea in Cappadocia, cf. Palladius, H. Laus. 147), who had received them as a legacy from Symmachus himself. Various Latin authors of the 4th and 5th centuries knew the Symmachians as a sect of Judaic-Christians. (Victorinus rhet.. In Gal. i. 19 ; ii. 26 ; Philastrius, Haer. 62 ; Ambrosiast., In Gal., prologue ; Saint Augustine, Contra Faustum^ xix. 4, 17; Contra Crescoftimn, i. 31). In the time of St Augustine, this sect counted but a very small number of adherents. St Epi- phanius, De mens, et pond. 18, xg, tells us that Symmachus was a Samaritan convert to Judaism. But he alone mentions the fact. Cf. Harnack, Chronologic^ ii., 164 ; H. E. v. 10. - Eusebius, who tells us this, identifies, as was customary, this Hebrew Gospel with the original Gospel of St Matthew. END NOTES] Nevertheless, the Judaic Church remained small, even when those of the dispersion were included. Doubtless it suffered, under Trajan and Hadrian, from the calamities which befell the Jewish nation. In the time of Origen, it was of comparatively small account. The great com- mentator rejects^ the notion that by the 144,000 elect of Israel, in the Apocalypse, the Judaic-Christians could be meant ; the number appears to him far too high. Origen wrote after two centuries of Christianity, so his estimate would cover five or six generations. He cannot have thought the Judaic -Christians very numerous. In the 4th century there were still Nazarenes. They are referred to by Eusebius, St Epiphanius, above all by St Jerome, chiefly in connection with their Gospel. The allusions to their doctrine are not in very favourable terms.- Now and then traces of the influence of the main Church can be discerned amongst them, and even of some attempt at a drawing together. A fusion no doubt did take place, but only on the part of individuals. None of the Judaic-Christian communities were received as such into the oriental patriarchates. Thus Judaic-Christianity died out in misery and in obscurity. As the Church developed in the Greco-Roman world she left her cradle behind. Emancipation from Judaic-Christianity was as necessary as from pure Judaism. St Paul, on his last journey to Jerusalem, suffered both from the brutality of the Jews and the malevolence of the Judaic-Christians ; he found a refuge and comparative safety amongst the Romans. This is symboh'c of the whole situation. But St Paul had not only had to deal with legalist Jews. He also encountered a subtilized form of Judaism which had added peculiar rites and ascetic practices to the Mosaic ordinances, whilst it supplemented the simple faith of Israel with high-flown religious and philosophic speculations. The Essenes in Palestine, and Philo, and others of his type, among the Dispersion, represent different aspects of this tendency to develop received tradition. The same tendency affected the primitive Christian communities. The teachers whom St Paul opposed in his Asiatic letters were connected with this sublimated form of Judaism as were also those with whom St Ignatius had dealings later on. It finds its special expression in the doctrines of Cerinthus. In the 2nd century, it appears that this movement had abated a little ; at any rate it is not discernible amidst the din of the Gnostic sects. A hundred years after Cerinthus and St Ignatius, there was a revival of this type of Judaic- Christian preaching.^ In the time of Pope Callistus (217-222 A.D.) a certain Alcibiades, coming from Apamea, in Syria, represented the movement in Rome. He brought with him a mysterious book, said to have been given in the mythical land of Seres to a good man named Elkesai, about the third year of Trajan's reign (100 A.D,).^ Elkesai had received it from an angel thirty leagues high, called the Son of God ; beside whom was a female being of the same dimensions, called the Holy Spirit.^ This revelation was nothing but a preaching of repentance, or rather of purification by baptism, incessantly renewed. The initiate immersed himself in the water, invoking the seven witnesses, that is. Heaven, Water, the Holy Spirits, and the Angels of Prayer, Oil, Salt, and Earth. This ceremony not only purified from sin, but cured madness and other diseases. The prescribed formulas were com- posed of Syriac words, said backwards. This sect does not appear to have met with much success outside the country of its origin, where it had more than one form no doubt, for St Epiphanius knew several varieties of it, described as Ossenes, Ebionites, and Sampsaeans. In his day it was confined to the countries lying east of the Dead Sea and the Jordan. Two women still remained of the family of Elkesai, Marthus and Marthana, whom their co-religionists held in great veneration. These sectarians observed the Jewish rites, but had views of their own on the Scripture canon. They repudi- ated the Prophets and eliminated from the Law all reference to sacrifice. They scouted the Apostle Paul and rejected his letters. Their New Testament opened with a Gospel, of which St Epiphanius has preserved fragments. The text claimed to have been compiled by St Matthew,^ in the name of the twelve Apostles. There were also stories about the apostles, contained in special books, such as the Preaching of Peter, from which the Clementines- were derived, and the " Ascensions of James," quoted by St Epiphanius. The teaching of all these writings is strongly ascetic, especially as to vegetarian food and an abhorrence of wine. Even in the Eucharist, water replaced wine. Their Christology resembled that of the Ebionites and Cerinthus : Jesus, the Son of Joseph and Mary,^ became Divine at his baptism, by union with the aeon Christ. This aeon was by some identified with the Holy Spirit, by others with Adam, or with one of the higher angels, created before all other creatures, who had previously been incarnate in Adam, and in other Old Testament personages. On the connection of this Christ with the angel called the Son of God they do not enlighten us. [[[[[[[[notes ^ We must not confuse this rather late production with the Gospel of the Hebrews, mentioned later, nor more particularly with the very ancient collection of Logia mentioned by Papias, and apparently one of the sources of our own canonical Gospel of St Matthew. Fabricators of apocryphal documents have specially exploited the name of this apostle. Clement of Alexandria {Paedag. ii. i) de- scribes St Matthew as a professed vegetarian. Whence he derived this notion I know not, but it would be specially likely to attract the Elkesaites. ^ Recent researches on the Clementines (Waitz, Die Pseudokle- mentinen, in the Texte und Unt., vol. xxv., fasc. 4 ; cf. Harnack, Chronologie, ii., p. 518 et seq.) show that the genealogy of these documents was as follows. First came a book called the Preaching of Peter, composed at the end of the 2nd, or the beginning of the 3rd end notes] These doctrines and practices were not really anything new. They were but a revival of the old " Jewish fables " of St Paul's day, tricked out as a fresh revelation, and bolstered up by new writings specially composed for the purpose. century ; the preface was formed of the letter of Peter to James, with the protest
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge
Member Posts: 2337 Joined: 12-22-2015 Member Rating: 1.2
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Message 476 of 478 (776880)
01-21-2016 9:46 PM
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James the Judaizer
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But, at any rate, they distributed their hatred with impartiality, for James also, James the Judaizer, the head of the Judaizing Church, suffered from it. In 62 A.D. the high priest Annas the younger, taking advantage of the death of the procurator Festus, summoned James, with several other Christians, before the Sanhedrim, as violators of the Law, and sentenced them to be stoned. This sentence was immediately executed. .... chapter 4 The Judaic- Christians, who, of the two, preferred the Law, and only consented to the evangelization of the Gentiles under exceptional circumstances, were soon out of the main stream of opinion ; in the 2nd century they were classed with heretics.
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Acts 15 Acts 15New International Version (NIV) The Council at Jerusalem 15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved. 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them. 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses. 6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. 12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. Brothers, he said, listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: 16 ‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, 17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things’ 18 things known from long ago. 19 It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath. The Council’s Letter to Gentile Believers 22 Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were leaders among the believers. 23 With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
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Acts 21 Paul Visits James at Jerusalem 17 When we arrived in Jerusalem, the brothers welcomed us warmly. 18 The next day Paul went with us to visit James; and all the elders were present. 19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard it, they praised God. Then they said to him, You see, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews, and they are all zealous for the law. 21 They have been told about you that you teach all the Jews living among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, and that you tell them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 So do what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow. 24 Join these men, go through the rite of purification with them, and pay for the shaving of their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself observe and guard the law. 25 But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled[e] and from fornication. 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having purified himself, he entered the temple with them, making public the completion of the days of purification when the sacrifice would be made for each of them.
James the heretic. Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Admin
Director Posts: 13023 From: EvC Forum Joined: 06-14-2002 Member Rating: 1.9
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Moderator Concern
From the Forum Guidelines:
- Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.
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Replies to this message: | | Message 478 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2016 2:16 PM | | Admin has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 478 of 478 (776914)
01-22-2016 2:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 477 by Admin 01-22-2016 8:04 AM
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Re: Moderator Concern
7. And don't do it anyway because nobody, but nobody reads it. The only surer way of being ignored is to link to 3 blogs and 2 Youtube videos.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 477 by Admin, posted 01-22-2016 8:04 AM | | Admin has seen this message but not replied |
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