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Author Topic:   Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?
Faith
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Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 76 of 129 (821203)
10-03-2017 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by PaulK
10-03-2017 2:24 PM


Re: A Rabbi says it's rounding up
Since we do not have even a portion of a third night the main problem is unsolved.

But it is solved: when the rabbi says that "A day and a night make a whole day" according to the idiom. That is, the night is included in the day, so insisting that the nights be counted separately misses the gist of the idiom: they are part of the day and don't have to be in the picture at all since a day is a day with or without them.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2017 2:24 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2017 4:05 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
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Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 77 of 129 (821204)
10-03-2017 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
10-03-2017 3:58 PM


Re: A Rabbi says it's rounding up
quote:

But it is solved: when the rabbi says that "A day and a night make a whole day" according to the idiom

You assume too much. That's not an idiom, that's just normal usage in English as well. A whole day - 24 hours - includes a day and a night.

It's just rounding up. If you're talking about whole days you round up to a whole day. If you're talking about days and nights you wouldn't - and the Rabbi doesn't say that he would either.

quote:

That is, the night is included in the day, so insisting that the nights be counted separately misses the gist of the idiom: they are part of the day and don't have to be in the picture at all since a day is a day with or without them

Three days and three nights would seem to be counting the nights separately. That IS the issue.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 10-03-2017 3:58 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 10-03-2017 4:16 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 78 of 129 (821205)
10-03-2017 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by PaulK
10-03-2017 4:05 PM


Re: A Rabbi says it's rounding up
The rabbi clearly meant what I said he meant.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2017 4:05 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2017 4:21 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
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Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 79 of 129 (821206)
10-03-2017 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
10-03-2017 4:16 PM


Re: A Rabbi says it's rounding up
Even your commentary says that you need portions of three nights to get three days and three nights.

It is not clear or even likely that he meant that the "three days and three nights" can be reasonably read as "one whole day and small parts of two more and two nights"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 10-03-2017 4:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 10-03-2017 11:45 PM PaulK has responded

    
rstrats
Member
Posts: 109
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 80 of 129 (821210)
10-03-2017 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by kbertsche
10-03-2017 2:11 PM


Re: Why?
kbertsche,
re: "Please go back and re-read my post #3. As I said there, the evidence SUGGESTS that this is an idiom. It does not PROVE that this is an idiom..."

OK, let me try to clarify the topic request:

1. The Messiah said that 3 nights would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth".

2. There are some folks who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

3. Of those, some think that the "heart of the earth" refers to the tomb,

4. However, a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of the folks mentioned in the 3rd point say that the Messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time.

6. If it was common usage to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur, examples would have to be known in order to legitimately say that is was common.

7. I am simply asking for some of those examples, i.e., actual instances where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by kbertsche, posted 10-03-2017 2:11 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by kbertsche, posted 10-03-2017 10:58 PM rstrats has responded

  
rstrats
Member
Posts: 109
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 81 of 129 (821213)
10-03-2017 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
10-03-2017 1:52 PM


Re: A Rabbi says it's an idiom
Faith,
re: " Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah (around the year ad 100; cited in Clarke and other sources) explained this way of speaking when he wrote: 'A day and a night make a whole day, and a portion of a whole day is reckoned as a whole day.'”

As regards the Jewish practice of counting any part of a calendar day as a whole calendar day I would agree, but when "nights" is added to "days" to yield the phrase "X days AND X nights" it normally refers to a measurement of a time period where "day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and "night"¯refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical documentation that the phrase X days AND X nights was a unique first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English.

Azariah's interpretation of the meaning of the phrase, "A day and a night make an Onah, and a part of an Onah is as the whole" doesn't seem to make sense. On the one hand he is saying that a day AND a night define an Onah and then he turns right around and says that a day OR a night define an Onah. What makes more sense is that the rabbi is saying that a day is an Onah and a night is an Onah but that any part of a day can be counted as a whole day and any part of a night can be counted as a whole night. And that interpretation is supported by Rabbi Ismael, Rabbi Jochanan, and Rabbi Akiba, contemporaries of Azariah, who all agree that an onah was 12 hours long, either a day OR a night. "Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica". Also, a definition of Onah from "The Jerusalem Center for Advanced Torah Study" says: "The word onah literally means 'time period.' In the context of the laws of niddah, it usually refers to a day or a night. Each 24-hour day thus consists of two onot. The daytime onah begins at sunrise (henetz hachamah, commonly called netz) and ends at sunset (shekiat hachamah or shekiah). The night-time onah lasts from sunset until sunrise."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 10-03-2017 1:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 10-04-2017 12:09 AM rstrats has responded

  
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1405
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 82 of 129 (821214)
10-03-2017 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by rstrats
10-03-2017 5:50 PM


Re: Why?
rstrats writes:

I am simply asking for some of those examples, i.e., actual instances where a daytime or a night time was said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.


I haven't been able to find any example which EXACTLY, DEFINITIVELY shows what you ask. Perhaps examples exist in Rabinnic or Greek literature, and perhaps not. I am not enough of a Greek or Hebrew scholar to say for sure.

What I DID find and present to you is evidence:
1) that first century Jews thought and spoke about time differently than we do, and
2) that "three days and three nights" is synonymous for "the third day" (i.e. two days from now). Matthew himself uses both phrases interchangeably without noting a contradiction (the former in Mt. 12:40; the latter in 16:21; 17:23; and 20:19.) From Mt 27:57–28:1 it seems that this refers to a period of less than 48 hours.


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 129 (821217)
10-03-2017 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by PaulK
10-03-2017 4:21 PM


Re: A Rabbi says a day may or may not include night
Even your commentary says that you need portions of three nights to get three days and three nights.

It is not clear or even likely that he meant that the "three days and three nights" can be reasonably read as "one whole day and small parts of two more and two nights"

I think it clearly refers to three "days" in which nights may or may not be a portion.

BLB Commentary writes:

Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah (around the year ad 100; cited in Clarke and other sources) explained this way of speaking when he wrote: “A day and a night make a whole day, and a portion of a whole day is reckond as a whole day.”

"A portion of a whole day is reckoned as a whole day" saying nothing about whether that portion includes any night time at all.

BLB commentary writes:

This demonstrates how in Jesus’ day, the phrase three days and three nights did not necessarily mean a full 72-hour period, but a period including at least the portions of three days and three nights.

Reading this in the light of the statement above the meaning is NOT that any portion of actual night time is necessary in referring to a day. It is ambiguously worded but that's because it's stating the idiom itself, not because it is now contradicting the statement just before it about reckoning a portion of a day, defined as a day and a night, night being regarded as part of the whole day. Night is subsumed under day, part of day, the day is the whole that includes night but since any portion is counted as a day that portion does not have to include night.

You apparently aren't going to accept this and I don't know why but I think you are clearly wrong and there is no need for any part of night to be included in a particular "day."

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2017 4:21 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2017 11:51 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 84 of 129 (821218)
10-03-2017 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
10-03-2017 11:45 PM


Re: A Rabbi says a day may or may not include night
quote:

I think it clearly refers to three "days" in which nights may or may not be a portion.

We're discussing the phrase "three days and three nights" so that is obviously not relevant.

quote:

Reading this in the light of the statement above the meaning is NOT that any portion of actual night time is necessary to counting a day as a day.

And nobody is saying otherwise.

quote:

You apparently aren't going to accept this and I don't know why but I think you are clearly wrong and there is no need for any part of night to be included in a particular "day."

I did explicitly accept it, so this is just standard "Christian" misrepresentation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 10-03-2017 11:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 10-04-2017 12:12 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 85 of 129 (821219)
10-04-2017 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by rstrats
10-03-2017 6:00 PM


Re: A Rabbi says it's an idiom
.. but when "nights" is added to "days" to yield the phrase "X days AND X nights" it normally refers to a measurement of a time period where "day" refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and "night"¯refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period.

But I think that is a distinction WE make that they didn't make, and that the rabbi's explanation is that night is subsumed under day in a way that you can have a whole day without including any night time at all.

Azariah's interpretation of the meaning of the phrase, "A day and a night make an Onah, and a part of an Onah is as the whole" doesn't seem to make sense. On the one hand he is saying that a day AND a night define an Onah and then he turns right around and says that a day OR a night define an Onah. What makes more sense is that the rabbi is saying that a day is an Onah and a night is an Onah but that any part of a day can be counted as a whole day and any part of a night can be counted as a whole night. And that interpretation is supported by Rabbi Ismael, Rabbi Jochanan, and Rabbi Akiba, contemporaries of Azariah, who all agree that an onah was 12 hours long, either a day OR a night. "Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Hebraica". Also, a definition of Onah from "The Jerusalem Center for Advanced Torah Study" says: "The word onah literally means 'time period.' In the context of the laws of niddah, it usually refers to a day or a night. Each 24-hour day thus consists of two onot. The daytime onah begins at sunrise (henetz hachamah, commonly called netz) and ends at sunset (shekiat hachamah or shekiah). The night-time onah lasts from sunset until sunrise."

Well, let the rabbis hash it out then. I think Azariah's version does make more sense: calling a "night and a day" a whole day in which night is subsumed in a way that means you can call a time period a "day and a night" meaning a whole day, but without there being any actual night as part of it. Jesus died within a few hours of sunset on Good Friday which would be the beginning of Saturday in the Jewish system, yet that day is reckoned as a whole day though it is only a few hours and there is no night at all included. Saturday then happens to be a full 24 hour day with a full daylight and a full darkness of night, but then Sunday includes the night but only a few hours of daylight and it too is referred to as a whole day. All three completely different time periods are rightly referred to as a "night and a day" meaning a whole day in Jewish reckoning as Azariah explains it. One hour of daylight can be a "day and a night" and so presumably could one hour of night time. So I'd go with Azariah's interpretation just because it gives consistency to the New Testament usage.

But if you disagree I'm no scholar of these things and I've given my view of how it reads to me so there's really no more to say.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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 Message 81 by rstrats, posted 10-03-2017 6:00 PM rstrats has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 129 (821220)
10-04-2017 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by PaulK
10-03-2017 11:51 PM


Re: A Rabbi says a day may or may not include night
I thought you were disagreeing with me, but if not I'm sorry for the mistake.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2017 11:51 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 10-04-2017 12:18 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 87 of 129 (821221)
10-04-2017 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
10-04-2017 12:12 AM


Re: A Rabbi says a day may or may not include night
I'm disagreeing with the idea that the phrase "three days and three nights" can mean a time period that only includes two nights and not even a part of a third. That should have been absolutely clear. But that is not a point you addressed at all in your previous reply to me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 10-04-2017 12:12 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 10-04-2017 12:22 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 129 (821222)
10-04-2017 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by PaulK
10-04-2017 12:18 AM


Re: A Rabbi says a day may or may not include night
Sorry, I thought I did. As I understand Rabbi Azariah's interpretation, no portion of a night is necessary at all in the phrase "a day and a night" meaning "a whole day."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 10-04-2017 12:18 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by PaulK, posted 10-04-2017 12:30 AM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13228
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 89 of 129 (821223)
10-04-2017 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
10-04-2017 12:22 AM


Re: A Rabbi says a day may or may not include night
quote:

Sorry, I thought I did. As I understand Rabbi Azariah's interpretation, no portion of a night is necessary at all in the phrase "a day and a night" meaning "a whole day."

Let us note that the Rabbi does not say that you can round up to a whole day and then call the period "a day and a night" (you wouldn't in English even though everything in the quote also applies to English). And even if he did the plural usage would be "three days and nights", not "three days and three nights". And, as I have pointed out twice already, the commentary explicitly states that you would need at least portions of three nights.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 10-04-2017 12:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 10-04-2017 12:31 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26448
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 129 (821224)
10-04-2017 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by PaulK
10-04-2017 12:30 AM


Re: A Rabbi says a day may or may not include night
Well, as I have explained, I disagree.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by PaulK, posted 10-04-2017 12:30 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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