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Author Topic:   The Nicene Creed Scam
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 1 of 26 (775291)
12-30-2015 8:00 PM


This is who Jesus Christ himself is. Let’s start with the one thing that will define who God really is? What is eternal life? John 5:26b…For as the Father HAS LIFE IN HIMSELF; so has he given to the son TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF. The life Jesus referred to is eternal or everlasting life. 


By his declaration and definition, he declared that he himself did not have eternal life at the time he was walking the earth or he was a complete liar! If you truly believe that the Bible is the Word of God, then you have to believe that Jesus Christ spoke the truth. If so, from his own mouth, he declared that only God had eternal life. Christ himself only had the promise of eternal life! This scam is too long to post here.


http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/


Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 11:57 PM Bob Bobber has responded
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-31-2015 12:42 AM Bob Bobber has responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1781
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 26 (775292)
12-30-2015 11:11 PM


Welcome To EvC
Welcome to EvC! I have allowed your link to stay for now, though we do have rules about spam. Forum Guidelines

I browsed that blog, Robert. If you indeed wrote all of that stuff I would imagine that you have something to teach us. Please make your points in your own words and dont cut & paste from your blog.

Please reply to me here before I promote your topic and tell us your basic worldview in order to get this topic started. Prepare to have your beliefs challenged, questioned, and laughed at---but dont get discouraged.

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

Edited by AdminPhat, : clarification


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-30-2015 11:31 PM AdminPhat has acknowledged this reply

    
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 3 of 26 (775293)
12-30-2015 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
12-30-2015 11:11 PM


Re: Welcome To EvC
Those who believe Jesus was purely human tended to understand the Israelites history and they even accept him as a messiah, but that does not mean they think he was God. 


They know the monotheism of Israel does not and cannot evolve from polytheism, because the two are based on radically divergent world-views, radically divergent intuitions about reality.

The monotheism of Israel was not, it could not be the natural outgrowth of the polytheism of an earlier age, it was a radical break with it. 
Monotheism was a revolution, not an evolution.

I did write that blog, but I depend on that blog to answer questions?


This message is a reply to:
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 Message 4 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-30-2015 11:46 PM Bob Bobber has not yet responded

    
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 4 of 26 (775294)
12-30-2015 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Bob Bobber
12-30-2015 11:31 PM


Re: Welcome To EvC
I can still answer questions without a link to that blog, but I will be presenting my case with that blog. If you don't mind me bring some of that blog to your forum? I have find in other debates I have going on, that people will not look at that blog anyways?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-30-2015 11:31 PM Bob Bobber has not yet responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1781
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 5 of 26 (775296)
12-30-2015 11:53 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
No you are fine. We want to get to know you a bit.

Thread copied here from the The Nicene Creed Scam thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9268
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 6 of 26 (775298)
12-30-2015 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bob Bobber
12-30-2015 8:00 PM


Getting This Rolling.
Bobber writes:

If you truly believe that the Bible is the Word of God, then you have to believe that Jesus Christ spoke the truth. If so, from his own mouth, he declared that only God had eternal life.

So are you saying that while on earth Jesus was but a human?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-30-2015 8:00 PM Bob Bobber has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 12:11 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 7 of 26 (775299)
12-31-2015 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
12-30-2015 11:57 PM


Re: Getting This Rolling.
Jesus was everything that the first Adam was before the fall. Being created in the image of God means that we must view ourselves as intrinsically valuable and richly invested with meaning, potentially and responsibilities. We are to be and to do on a finite scale, what God is and does on an infinite scale.

By virtue of being created in the image of God, human beings are capable of reflecting his character in their own life; animals possess none of these qualities. What distinguishes people from animals is the fact that human nature inherently has godlike possibilities.

Omniscience, omnipotence, or omnipresence, none of these other divine attributes have been ascribed to the human race as part of the image of God. We have been created to reflect God in our thinking and actions, but the physical sustained by God and dependent upon him for our existence in this world and in the world to come.

Developing a godly character in this present life, this will be our personal identity in the world to come. It is the character or personality that we have developed in this life, that God preserves in his memory.

Jesus was TO HAVE that life?


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 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 11:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by kbertsche, posted 12-31-2015 12:38 AM Bob Bobber has responded

    
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1345
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 8 of 26 (775300)
12-31-2015 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Bob Bobber
12-31-2015 12:11 AM


Re: Getting This Rolling.
In other words, Bob Bobber is promoting the Arian heresy.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 12:11 AM Bob Bobber has responded

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15485
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 9 of 26 (775301)
12-31-2015 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bob Bobber
12-30-2015 8:00 PM


I find your reasoning incomprehensible. There's nothing in the passage you quote that suggests that Jesus was saying he was not alive, or that he would not live eternally. Indeed, looking at the wider context of the quote it seems to me that he wasn't discussing these questions at all, but rather expanding on John 5:21.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-30-2015 8:00 PM Bob Bobber has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 1:00 AM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 25 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 11:07 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 10 of 26 (775303)
12-31-2015 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by kbertsche
12-31-2015 12:38 AM


Re: Getting This Rolling.
Adam and Eve had access to this tree up to that point, as long as their will conformed to the will of Yahweh, there was no danger to their going on eternally, being immortal. Once they discovered their moral freedom, once they discovered that they could thwart Yahweh and work evil in the world, and abuse and corrupt all that Yahweh had created, then Yahweh could not afford to allow them access to the tree of life.

That would be tantamount to creating divine enemies, immortal enemies. So Yahweh must maintain the upper hand in his struggle with these humans who have learned to defy him. And Yahweh maintains the upper hand in this, the fact that humans eventually must die. Yahweh stations the cherubim and the fiery ever-turning sword to guard the way back to the tree of life, once Adam and Eve were banished from the garden.

The tree of life is now inaccessible; no humans have access to immortality, and the pursuit of immortality is futile. So it might be then that Yahweh really spoke the truth after all, the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad did bring death to the human race.

That life is no longer inaccessible. Remember Jesus was TO HAVE that life, the same life that tree of life produced?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by kbertsche, posted 12-31-2015 12:38 AM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 11 of 26 (775304)
12-31-2015 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Adequate
12-31-2015 12:42 AM


Jesus did not have life in himself, so he could not be the source of that life; however, that being said, he was given the authority to give the promise to whomever he wished. He was not the source, but he was the only way to obtain the life from God himself. This is not semantics, the scriptures make it quite plain to anyone who reads it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-31-2015 12:42 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-31-2015 1:04 AM Bob Bobber has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15485
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 12 of 26 (775306)
12-31-2015 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Bob Bobber
12-31-2015 1:00 AM


Jesus did not have life in himself ...

You've just referred us to a passage of the Bible in which he explicitly says that he did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 1:00 AM Bob Bobber has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 1:16 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 13 of 26 (775307)
12-31-2015 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Adequate
12-31-2015 1:04 AM


What is eternal life for the Israelite? The monotheism of Israel was not, it could not be the natural outgrowth of the polytheism of an earlier age, it was a radical break with it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-31-2015 1:04 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-31-2015 1:29 AM Bob Bobber has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15485
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 14 of 26 (775308)
12-31-2015 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Bob Bobber
12-31-2015 1:16 AM


Your point is obscure.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 1:16 AM Bob Bobber has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Bob Bobber, posted 12-31-2015 1:46 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
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Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 289 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 15 of 26 (775309)
12-31-2015 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Adequate
12-31-2015 1:29 AM


Remember that the human race is cut off from that eternal life. So after Yahweh Gave up on the nations, Yahweh experiments with a single individual of believing; Abraham’s believing withstands many a trial. Yahweh is the owner of the land, Abraham was called to. Yahweh is empowered to set conditions or residency requirements for those who would reside in it, like a landlord. Yahweh is seeking replacement tenants who are going to follow the moral rules of residence that Yahweh has established for his land. 


Yahweh’s promise to Abraham is formalized in a ritual ceremony called a suzerainty covenant. The patriarchical covenant, which is a covenant in which a superior party, a suzerain dictates the terms of a political treaty usually, and an inferior party obeys them. The arrangement primarily serves the interest of the suzerain, and not the vassal or the subject. So Yahweh is making a land grant to a favored subject, and there’s an ancient ritual that ratifies the oath. In this kind of covenant, the parties to the oath would pass between the split carcass of a sacrificial animal, as if to say, that they agree they will suffer the same fate as this animal, if they violate the covenant. 


Abraham cuts sacrificial animals in two, and Yahweh, but only Yahweh, passes between the two halves. Only Yahweh seems to be obligated by the covenant, obligated to fulfill the promise that he’s made. Abraham doesn’t appear to have any obligation in return. In this case, it is the subject, Abraham, and not the suzerain, Yahweh, who is benefited by this covenant, and that’s a complete reversal of this ritual ceremony.


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