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Author Topic:   2014 was hotter than 1998. 2015 data in yet?
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 301 of 357 (778069)
02-15-2016 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by NoNukes
02-15-2016 3:04 PM


Re: Solar Power in Hawai'i
So you cannot wash your closes in the wee hours of the morning when most people in your locality are asleep.

No.

Because I am also asleep.

I don't have to be awake while the machine's washing - but I do have to be awake to put the clothes in it, and then move them to the drier/hang them.

And all this has to be completed well before I go to work, since I don't so much care to wear wet underwear.

But really: the fact that you're railing on me because I don't wake up at 2:00 am to do my laundry really shows how pathetic your position is.

But waiting to turn the dishwasher on until right before you leave the house is hardly going to have any impact whatsoever on peak load times.

It's one of a collection of things you can do.

And when everyone else does it, then what?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by NoNukes, posted 02-15-2016 3:04 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 302 of 357 (778071)
02-15-2016 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by NoNukes
02-15-2016 1:36 AM


Re: Solar Power in Hawai'i
In fact, LNA hasn't made a single post since his suspension about two weeks ago.

Sure he has.

You've made statements to the effect that using solar power to generate large percentages of power (and not all of our current usage) will cause us to have an economy like Kenya ...

Not really.

... and you persist in talking about 100% replacement even when you are not addressing people talking about running on nothing but solar power.

Again, not really.

If you want to talk about something other than 100% replacement, go for it.

But LNA started this thread to harp about global warming and then started pissing on about the miracle of solar power. I'm just going with the flow.

Let's talk about partial replacement. We can start with you getting some figures showing where it's decreased GHG.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by NoNukes, posted 02-15-2016 1:36 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 303 of 357 (778072)
02-15-2016 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by New Cat's Eye
02-15-2016 10:11 AM


Re: Solar Power in Hawai'i
Shallowing down the peaks allows for FF generators to not run non-stop at max capacity.

But that's what you want them to do. When they run at max capacity, they run the most efficiently (unless by 'max' you mean at the point where they're about to blow).

Look at your car. Idling is the least efficient thing you can do with your engine - it runs and burns gas yet propels you nowhere. Going very slow is only a step above idling and your car is still burning up more fuel just in keeping the engine running than what actually goes toward moving you forward. As you increase speed, though, you increase the ratio of fuel being used to move the car to fuel being used just to keep the pulleys spinning - you get more efficiency.

Those peaks and valleys aren't the same thing as the intermittency of renewable energy at all.

Of course not. They're one of the benefits of supplementing traditional energy with renewable ones.

Peaks and valleys are never 'benefits'.

Actually, there's a shorter peak in the morning and then a larger peak in the evening. And then on top of that the height of those peaks varies by day, by week, by month, and by year.

Yes. They are predictable and steady. The power ramps up and ramps down smoothly. Unlike renewables which generate one second and go dead the next.

That's why storage is such a key component, as I've been harping on.

I agree. But the storage technology isn't there; not at a cost that makes it feasible for the majority of people anyway.

Have you looked into the Tesla PowerWall yet?

Yes. Remember? I pointed out how ridiculously expensive it is and how little power storage you get with it: Message 279.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-15-2016 10:11 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-15-2016 6:31 PM Jon has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 304 of 357 (778074)
02-15-2016 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Jon
02-15-2016 6:22 PM


Re: Solar Power in Hawai'i
That's why storage is such a key component, as I've been harping on.

I agree. But the storage technology isn't there; not at a cost that makes it feasible for the majority of people anyway.

Have you looked into the Tesla PowerWall yet?

Yes. Remember? I pointed out how ridiculously expensive it is and how little power storage you get with it: Message 279.

Okay, so you do understand the concept I'm trying to get across. Thank you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Jon, posted 02-15-2016 6:22 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Jon, posted 02-15-2016 8:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 305 of 357 (778077)
02-15-2016 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by New Cat's Eye
02-15-2016 6:31 PM


Re: Solar Power in Hawai'i
Okay, so you do understand the concept I'm trying to get across. Thank you.

That's it?

I've always agreed that running on pure renewables would be the ideal as far as reducing electricity-related GHG emissions.

And I've always agreed that the big hurdle to overcome is the storage.

I personally do not see chemical batteries as being the answer to the storage problem. I'd be interested in ProtoTypical going further into depth on his concrete-lifting battery idea.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-15-2016 6:31 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by ProtoTypical, posted 02-15-2016 11:28 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1761
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 306 of 357 (778078)
02-15-2016 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Jon
02-15-2016 8:35 PM


Re: Solar Power in Hawai'i
I personally do not see chemical batteries as being the answer to the storage problem. I'd be interested in ProtoTypical going further into depth on his concrete-lifting battery idea.

Armchair proclamations are often best left unexamined.

The storage capacity of a 1000 tonnes is not dense enough at reasonable heights to be very useful. You might store enough for 3 or 4 homes and it would take up 400 m3. On the other hand it would probably last a long time.

The Ludington Pumped Storage power plant stores enough power for 1.65 million homes by using off peak power from a nuclear plant. It covers about 3 sq miles.

quote:
This process was designed to level the load of nearby nuclear power plants on the grid. It also replaces the need to build natural gas peak power plants used only during high demand.

Edit Flywheels would probably be a better idea.

Edited by ProtoTypical, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Jon, posted 02-15-2016 8:35 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 307 of 357 (778128)
02-17-2016 11:42 AM


2015 data is in and so is January 2016 data.
2015 was the hottest year on record and 2016 is starting out even worse.

Several of the months in 2015 were the hottest on record, leading to 2015 overall being the hottest year ever recorded

The global temperature anomaly for January 2016 was 1.13 Celsius. That makes it the hottest January on record (the previous record was 0.95 C in 2007). But theres more: 1.13 is the largest anomaly for any month since records began in 1880. There have only been monthly anomalies over 1C three times before in recorded history, and those three were all from last year. The farther back in the past you go, the lower the anomalies are on average.

Bad Astronomy

Dr. Plait does link to a refutation of a deniers argument in this article. I suggest any deniers at least take a look at it before you post some denial hog wash. Here I will make it easy for you.

Denier claims

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Jon, posted 02-20-2016 1:07 PM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 312 by RAZD, posted 02-20-2016 6:33 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 308 of 357 (778473)
02-20-2016 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Theodoric
02-17-2016 11:42 AM


With Great Power...
If it's true we can effect drastic changes in the climate system, then I suppose a few questions need to be answered:
  • What do we want the climate system to look like? What is optimal for our survival and how do we make that happen?
  • If we have to change the climate as part of improving our lives, what level of change is acceptable in return for what level of improvement?
I don't honestly believe any discussion about what we should/can do about anthropogenic climate change can really begin until these questions are answered.

This thread's probably not the place for that discussion... so I started a new one:

The Optimal Climate & Optimal Human Development


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2016 11:42 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 309 of 357 (778509)
02-20-2016 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Jon
02-13-2016 12:37 PM


vehicles etc
I think RAZD and LNA have given up trying to support their outrageous claims.

You wish. Your claims get more and more ridiculous and blind to reality.

It doesn't matter how cheap solar becomes, it will always be cheaper to run a grid system of mass-production and distribution than to run on a subsistence model of electricity generation.

My personal use is far from subsistence -- it is doing so well that I am looking at expanding my use of electricity so I can cut down on other energy.

The systems being installed in India and Kenya are lifting people OUT of subsistence living.

Nor do I envisage removal of the grid wiring, but converting it to a web network with billions of generation locations distribute in a way that the energy is shared as needed.

I produced more energy than I used in December, when days were short and sunshine limited. That surplus is out there on the web for others to use. So I expect to be producing more than I need for some time.

For little cost ($3,000.00-$5,000) you can buy off the shelf power backup that would allow you to power your peak-load time usage and replenish during low load times. This market is just beginning ... because solar power panels are creating a demand for it. The price will come down as the technology is developed -- and there is a LOT of activity in developing energy storage systems.

Solar and wind and tidal energy generation are developing more and more, and efficiencies are increasing while costs are dropping.

Remaining glued to fossil fuels is unrealistic.

One of the last "frontiers" is powering vehicles with renewable systems, and there are several approaches that are undergoing further development.

For example compressed air car technology is being developed into a practical system. This would be amazing for public transportation -- where the vehicles recharge at stations (and use air compression for brakes) -- no high voltage subway rails or trolley\trolly-bus overhead wires.

Of course you need compressors, but they can be powered by any energy. This is a common element of all new powering systems -- hydrogen, fuel cells, etc -- but I think compressed air is (a) the easiest for infrastructure (most garages have compressors ...) (b) the safest as there is nothing there to cause fires in a crash.

I don't even have a house...

One of my new projects is to work with my town so that it can go fossil fuel free by 2020 (the "2020 vision project") by installing solar panels on town properties ... with co-op funding: people "buy" panels to be installed, the town gets the electricity and the panel "owners" get credit against their property taxes. This is working with the existing way solar power is structured with the utility company. Co-op members could buy and sell shares (panels). The town gets cheaper electricity without having to fund the panels, the members get cheaper taxes -- both because they get a rebate but because town costs are lowered - win-win.

There is no reason that you couldn't have a company provide solar power and you could sign up to use their power -- you can already choose different utility companies to provide your electricity over the existing grid system.

Now I live -- intentionally -- in a small town in RI, and it is very very feasible to provide all the electricity that the town needs by this system.

I don't need to focus on your unrealistic extreme scenario cases (NY city may take a while but that doesn't mean the small town can't get started on it).

There is also more interest each year.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Jon, posted 02-13-2016 12:37 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 310 of 357 (778511)
02-20-2016 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Jon
02-13-2016 1:04 PM


Re: Solar Power in Hawai'i

What is the plan? Turn off the furnace and hot water while people are at home making dinner or taking a shower?

The furnace is only needed for part of the year. Without it hot water becomes 18/58=31% of usage. I have heard other sources say it is 40% of energy use.

I use hot water radiant floor heat, and water heaters are hot enough, so this summer I will be installing a large electric water heater for hot water and heat. It will be powered by the excess power I have been generating. This will double my savings from my panels.

In addition I will be adding solar hot water to "precondition" the water entering the water heater, reducing the energy demand.

If you want to conserve your power, conserve it. But the point is that it has to be up to you.

If it is not up to the end user to conserve, then you do indeed end up with a Kenyan economy where economic prosperity and the well-being it generates are constrained by the availability of reliable energy.

And I can take my house system and place it anywhere in rural America and not be reduced to a "Kenyan economy ... constrained by the availability of reliable energy." There is absolutely no reason everyone else cannot do this -- even if you have to "rent" panels half-way across the continent and access it through the energy web.

Every existing generation plant can be replaced with solar power and you would not even notice it.

It is your misconception that is your problem.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : lost some of that


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Jon, posted 02-13-2016 1:04 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Jon, posted 02-21-2016 12:03 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 311 of 357 (778514)
02-20-2016 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Jon
02-14-2016 10:05 AM


Re: Solar Power in Hawai'i
If we move the peak into the valley then it is no longer a peak.

You mean midnight?

Put your dishwasher and clothes washer on timers.

Though with large scale renewable energy systems, where the consumption of power is separated from its generation by the storage medium, these issues like peak load become less important. You just have to have enough power, period.

And the best place to store energy is as local as possible -- thus the Tesla Wall for homes and small businesses. This technology is just beginning to be practical, and it is one of the growing endeavors: competition will lower costs, technology improvements will improve efficiency.

It's not 'unlimited consumption' and it's not 'washing our hair so much' - it's just washing it at the time of our choosing.

Which is a cultural thing, and this can change. Personally I think Americans wash too much (and are unhealthy as a result).

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Jon, posted 02-14-2016 10:05 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Jon, posted 02-21-2016 12:01 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 312 of 357 (778519)
02-20-2016 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Theodoric
02-17-2016 11:42 AM


back to global warming ...
2015 data is in and so is January 2016 data.
2015 was the hottest year on record and 2016 is starting out even worse.

And 2015 was higher than previous records for each month of the year.

But that is only part of the story: Scientists are floored by whats happening in the Arctic right now

quote:

New data from NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration suggest that January of 2016 was, for the globe, a truly extraordinary month. Coming off the hottest year ever recorded (2015), January saw the greatest departure from average of any month on record, according to data provided by NASA.

But as you can see in the NASA figure above, the record breaking heat wasnt uniformly distributed it was particularly pronounced at the top of the world, showing temperature anomalies above 4 degrees Celsius (7.2 degrees Fahrenheit) higher than the 1951 to 1980 average in this region.

Indeed, NASA provides a zonal mean version of the temperature map above, which shows how the temperature departures from average change based on ones latitude location on the Earth. As you can see, things get especially warm, relative to what the Earth is used to, as you enter the very high latitudes:

Global warming has long been known to be particularly intense in the Arctic a phenomenon known as Arctic amplification but even so, lately the phenomenon has been extremely pronounced.

This unusual Arctic heat has been accompanied by a new record low level for Arctic sea ice extent during the normally ice-packed month of January, according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center over 400,000 square miles below average for the month. And of course, that is closely tied to warm Arctic air temperatures.

More ...


If there is a tipping point to sudden extreme change we could be approaching that.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Theodoric, posted 02-17-2016 11:42 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 313 of 357 (778538)
02-21-2016 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by RAZD
02-20-2016 6:16 PM


Re: Solar Power in Hawai'i
Put your dishwasher and clothes washer on timers.

I really don't understand this.

The dishwasher, sure.

But clothes washer? What happens to the clothes when they're done washing?

... competition will lower costs

And suddenly you're a laissez-faire capitalist.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by RAZD, posted 02-20-2016 6:16 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 314 of 357 (778539)
02-21-2016 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by RAZD
02-20-2016 6:00 PM


Re: Solar Power in Hawai'i
Every existing generation plant can be replaced with solar power and you would not even notice it.

Prove. It.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by RAZD, posted 02-20-2016 6:00 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2016 4:22 PM Jon has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 315 of 357 (778579)
02-21-2016 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Jon
02-21-2016 12:03 AM


Re: Solar Power in Hawai'i
Every existing generation plant can be replaced with solar power and you would not even notice it.

Prove. It.

The technology exists. Now. Off the shelf.

All it takes is implementation, not any new science or engineering of systems.

Also see http://www.vox.com/2015/6/25/8846507/community-solar

Community based systems sharing installation costs.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Jon, posted 02-21-2016 12:03 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Jon, posted 02-21-2016 8:15 PM RAZD has responded

  
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