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Author Topic:   The Story in the Rocks - Southwestern U.S.
edge
Member
Posts: 4002
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 46 of 121 (781772)
04-07-2016 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
04-07-2016 2:13 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
Siccar Point same situation. They are "basically the same material," yes, basically, being both sandstone, but they are two different kinds of sandstone, one called greywacke and the other I forget, a reddish stone I think, enough of a difference to provide a point of what I think of as slippage between the two sections, so that the entire lower section could buckle separately from the upper because they are sufficiently different for that to happen.

There is exactly zero evidence to support this.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 2:13 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 121 (781773)
04-07-2016 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by edge
04-07-2016 2:21 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
You're right, we've been over this before and I don't see any reason to continue it.

Except to say, what you call a religious reason I call caring about the truth, and I've certainly learned that you guys do not have the truth despite all your posturing about the superiority of Science. I am totally convinced of my argument, I know it's right, it's far from some kind of "religious" position.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by edge, posted 04-07-2016 2:21 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-07-2016 2:51 PM Faith has responded
 Message 54 by jar, posted 04-07-2016 3:20 PM Faith has responded
 Message 56 by edge, posted 04-07-2016 4:10 PM Faith has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1590
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 48 of 121 (781774)
04-07-2016 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
04-07-2016 2:13 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
Faith writes:

The point is that you would not ever have gotten a flat horizontal surface from erosion of the buckled section if it occurred before the upper were laid on it, but it is always said that it was eroded flat, and this is to accommodate the fact that the upper section IS flat and horizontal in the majority of cases.

This whole "buckled section after the overlying layers were deposited thing" is something you made up.

You are the only one who claims the contact surface of the Grand Canyon unconformity is flat. It may look that way if you are viewing it from miles away, but up close it is quite irregular.

Edge has shown you examples of this irregular surface and it has been pointed out to you numerous times in the past. The flatness is an illusion cased by viewing distance.

And just how many are you calling a "majority of cases?" How many unconformities have you actually visited and analyzed?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 2:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 2:38 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 121 (781775)
04-07-2016 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Tanypteryx
04-07-2016 2:34 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
This whole "buckled section after the overlying layers were deposited thing" is something you made up.

Of COURSE I "made it up," it's MY THEORY for cryin out loud. And it's a fantastically good theory, it answers a lot of the blithering nonsense of OE geology.

You are the only one who claims the contact surface of the Grand Canyon unconformity is flat. It may look that way if you are viewing it from miles away, but up close it is quite irregular.

I posted pictures demonstrating the flatness, and I added a link to that post in Message 44 that you missed because you were answering it already. The pictures show the contact to be flat both close up and at a distance.

Again, we've done this to death and there is no reason to continue.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-07-2016 2:34 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-07-2016 3:03 PM Faith has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1590
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 50 of 121 (781777)
04-07-2016 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
04-07-2016 2:33 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
Faith writes:

I am totally convinced of my argument, I know it's right, it's far from some kind of "religious" position.

Right, despite being shown countless pieces of evidence that prove you wrong, and never having conducted a single second of scientific research, and having an argument that violates the laws of physics, that is based on a biblical myth, you still know you are right.

You have said in past discussions that no matter how much evidence there is against you the bible is still correct. Sounds exactly like religion and/or cognitive dissonance to me.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 2:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 2:57 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 121 (781778)
04-07-2016 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Tanypteryx
04-07-2016 2:51 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
I do not argue from the Bible. I argue the physical facts.

I've answered your "evidence" many times over. The thing is this is all a war of interpretations but you think it's about evidence. It's not. We all have the same facts, we interpret them differently.

And your tactics are deceitful. You pull rank instead of thinking about my argument. My argument doesn't need the kind of research you demand. It's just a way for you to beat your chest and claim superiority, it has nothing to do with the facts being discussed.

THIS CONVERSATION IS OVER.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-07-2016 2:51 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1590
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 52 of 121 (781779)
04-07-2016 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
04-07-2016 2:38 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
Faith writes:

I posted pictures demonstrating the flatness, and I added a link to that post in Message 44 that you missed because you were answering it already. The pictures show the contact to be flat both close up and at a distance.

Yep, you posted a bunch of photos, but subsequent posts blew your interpretation out of the water.

After all this time your argument has not gained a single convert, Geology must be a powerful argument.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 2:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 3:10 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 121 (781780)
04-07-2016 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tanypteryx
04-07-2016 3:03 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
Subsequent posts all aimed at finding a surface some where flat enough to justify the Party Line. Eventually one was found. But it blew nothing out of the water because getting a flat surface from mere erosion on top of a stack of angled slabs of rock isn't going to happen. In fact I think it probably occurred the way I keep postulating. The angled rock was sheared by the friction between it and a previously present very deep stack of horizontal sediments when tectonic force caused the buckling of the lower section.

There is no reason whatever for erosion to choose a level to flatten out a bunch of broken upright slabs of rock. Doesn't happen. Nothing but OE Geo fantasy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-07-2016 3:03 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by edge, posted 04-07-2016 4:25 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29623
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(2)
Message 54 of 121 (781781)
04-07-2016 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
04-07-2016 2:33 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
Faith writes:

I am totally convinced of my argument, I know it's right, it's far from some kind of "religious" position.

When you know your postion is right and not subject to being changed based on the evidence it IS a religious position.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 2:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 3:25 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 121 (781782)
04-07-2016 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
04-07-2016 3:20 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
Typical twisting. The usual definitional gameplaying.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 04-07-2016 3:20 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
edge
Member
Posts: 4002
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 56 of 121 (781784)
04-07-2016 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
04-07-2016 2:33 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
I am totally convinced of my argument, I know it's right, it's far from some kind of "religious" position.

However, the only reason to do so is because of adherence to a religious text.

Therefore it is a religious viewpoint.

Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 2:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 8:05 PM edge has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4002
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 57 of 121 (781785)
04-07-2016 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
04-07-2016 3:10 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
Subsequent posts all aimed at finding a surface some where flat enough to justify the Party Line. Eventually one was found. But it blew nothing out of the water because getting a flat surface from mere erosion on top of a stack of angled slabs of rock isn't going to happen.

Except when it does. You have been shown a number of examples. You have also seen where the pre-Tapeats surface was irregular.

You ignore all of it.

That's actually kind of insulting, you know.

In fact I think it probably occurred the way I keep postulating. The angled rock was sheared by the friction between it and a previously present very deep stack of horizontal sediments when tectonic force caused the buckling of the lower section.

Faith, it is kind of axiomatic that when rocks are deformed the have to go someplace because volumes are changed at any location. Where do you think the rocks go? Reality says that the 'room problem' is taken up by moving vertically. In other words if you take a substance like a marshmallow and squeeze it or stretch it, the upper surface has to move. This would deform the rocks above the deformation.

There is no other way to accommodate the strain.

Moreover that vertical movement is unlikely to be even. The very best case would be a strongly faulted upper layer. And that is not what we have.

When we combine that with a lack of shearing along the unconformity boundary, it's pretty clear that your model is dead on arrival.

We have plenty of cases where there was plastic flow beneath a section of sedimentary rock and guess what ... the upper rocks are severely deformed.

You can stamp your feet and cry all you want, but it isn't going to make a difference to anyone else on the planet. These are direct observations and logical reasoning.

There is no reason whatever for erosion to choose a level to flatten out a bunch of broken upright slabs of rock. Doesn't happen. Nothing but OE Geo fantasy.

Sure there is: erosion to base level, a resistant layer, glacial friction, etc., etc.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 3:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 7:58 PM edge has not yet responded
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 8:00 PM edge has not yet responded
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 8:08 PM edge has not yet responded

  
edge
Member
Posts: 4002
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 2.7


(5)
Message 58 of 121 (781786)
04-07-2016 4:38 PM


Here is an image of deformed sediments in a compression.

And here is one in tension.

In both cases, you can see that the uppermost layers are deformed, even more so than the lower layers. Some vertical deformation is required to take up strain.


Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 04-07-2016 4:59 PM edge has not yet responded
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 04-07-2016 7:55 PM edge has not yet responded
 Message 67 by jar, posted 04-07-2016 9:10 PM edge has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29623
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 59 of 121 (781787)
04-07-2016 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by edge
04-07-2016 4:38 PM


+additional cheers.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by edge, posted 04-07-2016 4:38 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26616
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 60 of 121 (781799)
04-07-2016 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by edge
04-07-2016 4:38 PM


Try it with compacted semi-hardened sediments, and be sure you have different kinds or at least two different kinds, and apply the pressure to the LOWER HALF of the stack. Then you'll be getting somewhere near what I'm talking about. But I've worked on a model for this problem for a long time and there really isn't a set-up that would fairly represent it. Yours certainly doesn't. It's just the usual OE flimflam, just a way to delude yourself and others like Tanypteryx.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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