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Author | Topic: The Bundys and the Armed Occupation of a National Wildlife Refuge | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
But as she notes, this has been going on for many years--more than 20 for Cliven Bundy, without consequence for him. Not just going without consequence. Didn't a couple of Congressmen celebrate Bundy during the last incident? WaPo: GOP Presidential Candidates Who Are Silent Over Oregon Standoff Previously Praised Cliven Bundy's Cause | Media Matters for America
quote: quote: I can understand the desire to be patient with the situation, but I don't understand why these guys are free to come and go and to have other people bring them candy bars. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Can this action in Oregon be considered levying war against the United States? I think you are correct in saying that charging as treason is quite a stretch. On the other hand, why do that kind of stretching. I suspect that most of the occupiers have already accumulated enough ordinary violations as to put themselves away indefinitely. Just carrying a firearm into a federal building for the purpose of committing a crime is punishable by up to five years. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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The only requirement is that you be willfully dishonest and ignorant. I don't think these guys lie anymore. Yeah, they must have started out as pure liars, but by now at least some of them have come around to believing their own BS. It is exactly the same as with the Bible, Constitution, History, just as you say. Cherry pick a phrase here, a verse there, and recite half a quote and claim that John Paul Jones[1] said it, and you've got a lie formed out of facts. I find it amusing that the article spends time analyzing whether or not it is even possible for the executive branch to meet the demands. [1] Go Navy!! Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
If the Feds were smart, they would surround the building and starve them out. I think that is pretty much what the feds are now doing. Some of the holdouts are realizing that they may have missed an opportunity to go home.
quote: That's a pretty silly thing to say, but according to the article I'm reading quite a few of the remaining occupiers don't understand why they cannot just go home. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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I imagine a hostile takeover of a government building could land them, at a minimum, 3-5 years in a federal penitentiary. That's about right. As a couple of people have pointed out, some of these guys may well accomplish their goal of occupying federal property until the Hammonds are freed from prison. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Will the government take Bundy land for failure to pay taxes and other fees? Not out of the question I would think -- there are laws allowing the seizure of property used during committing a crime Yes there are such laws, but for the most part those laws are total crap, and I cannot find the energy to support their use on anyone. If it is necessary to seize some Bundy property to get back that million dollars worth of grazing fees, then so be it. I'm down with that. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Sorry. RAZD already announced the capture of Cliven.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams |
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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RAZD writes: Oops ... Daddy Bundy busted ... Why did Cliven's arrest take so long. Well perhaps that is just the 2nd amendment working just the way some gun nuts tell us it is supposed to work.
quote: Now he has more serious charges than tax evasion. Cliven most likely will never roam his ranch again. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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Some of the legal theories mentioned in the article are nothing short of bizarre.
quote: Adverse possession allows acquiring property by sitting on the land for some amount of time without any significant action by the owner to recover the property. The time period is generally on the order of 10 years and is perhaps as long as 30 years in some states. But you cannot invoke adverse possession by taking over a property and repelling the owners attempts to recover the property by force of arms.
quote: In short, Medenbach's statement, rather than being a defense, is an admission to all of the elements needed to prove auto theft. Edited by NoNukes, : discuss another charge Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
mocks federal prosecutors Actually the lawyer did have a small point. Generally, adverse possession does not work for government held lands, but there is an exception under 43 U.S. Code 1068 that allows the Secretary of the Interior to recognize certain claims. See 43 U.S. Code § 1068 - Lands held in adverse possession; issuance of patent; reservation of minerals; conflicting claims | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute Now it will be trivial to show that the attempt by Bundy and his folks doesn't meet the requirements of the statute to be a good faith peaceable attempt, but doing so will take a tiny bit more than saying that adverse possession is unavailable against the federal government. Plus the defense may give up more than is gained because of the twenty year period required for adverse possession to vest. Are they going to admit to an intent to occupy the facilities for at least twenty years? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
We shouldn't have been pushing a constitutional amendment against gay marriage. Lol!! We who? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I would recommend that you read this UN report You mean you don't have a video? That's your only shot. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
quote: I suppose this would be funny absent the crushing irony that suppresses the reflex for me at least. Edited by NoNukes, : Correct spelling. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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n principle, public land should be available to me to use for my general welfare without the state hassling me about it What if your city spends money maintaining a lake as a public reservoir? Can you come by and use up the water for your for profit enterprise for free? What happens to my share of the water? You can make up rule you want and call it a principle. But is this one justified? How about a principle that the atmosphere is free so anybody ought to be able to put pollutants in it? There is no justification for a principle that property that is kept up at public expense can be confiscated by a single member of the public for free. Because we all cannot graze our animals, there is a rationing system in place involving money; money which is used to keep the place up. In this case, the federal government manages the property for the rest of us. How about trees in a national forest? Do you think you ought to be able to cut those down without paying the public back? Why you and not someone else? You fish on public property, but you buy a license to do that. If you don't you are going to be hassled. The land is owned by the federal government. I can understand an argument that the state would be a better place to regulate the land. But I don't see that a for profit enterprise ought to able to just grab it up without paying the rest of us the value of what it is worth. That principle you are trying to invoke is called the stealing principle. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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If I can't use the land I own to feed myself, then in what way do I own it? You have the same say on how the land is used as you do a fighter jet bought with public money. You own the land in a similar way that you own a piece of a company when you own stock in it. You own the land with hundreds of millions of the rest of us; you can petition the federal government for what the rules are for its use. At least you don't have to check with all of us first. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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