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Author Topic:   The Bundys and the Armed Occupation of a National Wildlife Refuge
Faith
Member
Posts: 26712
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 196 of 254 (815403)
07-19-2017 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tanypteryx
01-12-2016 7:17 PM


Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
I hadn't known much about what was going on in that standoff but here Roger Stone lays it out as a clear violation by the government of the rights of citizens according to the Constitution, or specifically, the Federalist Papers. (By the way I couldn't care less what you think of Roger Stone). He also makes it clear that this was a Waco style use of unnecessary force against peacefully assembled citizens. Leftists tend to favor government power and control over citizen freedoms, why? From what I'm hearing the Bundys had a legitimate case that was trampled on by tyrannical government.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by vimesey, posted 07-20-2017 1:50 AM Faith has responded

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 197 of 254 (815415)
07-20-2017 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Faith
07-19-2017 11:53 PM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
I would recommend that you read this UN report on the state of affairs in North Korea: http://www.ohchr.org/...ortoftheCommissionofInquiryDPRK.aspx

The longer version of the report includes testimonies of some of the survivors of the North Korean regime. Examples of testimony include needles being driven underneath fingernails, forced starvation, and numerous brutal tortures.

If, having read that, you continue to describe the US government as tyrannical, then I am afraid you will be sorely embarrassing yourself.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 07-19-2017 11:53 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2017 2:22 AM vimesey has responded
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 07-20-2017 7:49 AM vimesey has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 198 of 254 (815421)
07-20-2017 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by vimesey
07-20-2017 1:50 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
I would recommend that you read this UN report

You mean you don't have a video? That's your only shot.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by vimesey, posted 07-20-2017 1:50 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by vimesey, posted 07-20-2017 4:39 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 204 by Diomedes, posted 07-20-2017 10:04 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
vimesey
Member
Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 199 of 254 (815423)
07-20-2017 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by NoNukes
07-20-2017 2:22 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
Hmmm, maybe :-/

There are some sketches of torture techniques in the longer document, drawn by a survivor. They're not pleasant, but they give something of an idea.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2017 2:22 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26712
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 200 of 254 (815426)
07-20-2017 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by vimesey
07-20-2017 1:50 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
So you object to my using the term "tyranny" for a violation of the Constitutional rights of citizens by the American government. Seems to me that was what the Constitution had in mind when those freedoms were originally crafted. I'm certainly thankful we aren't North Korea, but on the other hand I don't like to see a Constitutional infringement ignored because of a minor semantic objection.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by vimesey, posted 07-20-2017 1:50 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by jar, posted 07-20-2017 8:04 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 202 by vimesey, posted 07-20-2017 8:54 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 201 of 254 (815429)
07-20-2017 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
07-20-2017 7:49 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
What Constitutional violations are you alleging happened?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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vimesey
Member
Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


Message 202 of 254 (815438)
07-20-2017 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
07-20-2017 7:49 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
The language we use is important. And when wildly exaggerated language is used to inflame anger, fear and outrage, at the expense of cool thought and analysis, then the outcome is almost inevitably worse.

The liberal left is not completely innocent in this area, but the new right has taken to exaggeration as a duck to water. The US government is not tyrannical (the dictionary definitions refer to cruel and oppressive - and whilst there can be a debate about the extent of any law being "oppressive", it is impossible to describe a liberal democracy as cruel with any degree of accuracy).

So I will call out exaggerations such as this. Let's talk, not shout.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 07-20-2017 7:49 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Faith, posted 07-20-2017 9:48 AM vimesey has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26712
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 203 of 254 (815446)
07-20-2017 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by vimesey
07-20-2017 8:54 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
I don't consider the term "tyranny" to be a problem in this context where government force is used against citizens exercising their freedom of assembly to protest government ownership of land they have no right to, depriving the citizens of its rightful use, making them pay more than they can afford for that rightful use, then confiscating their cattle and arresting some of them. According to Stone they have also been denied normal communication with lawyers and others. I don't think we have to have cruelty on the order of North Korea to use the term "tyranny" for any wrongful use of government force against its citizens. It's not needles under the nails but being jailed for exercising a Constitutional right ought to figure at some degree on the tyranny scale. However, SOME word is needed and if you don't like "tyranny" or "oppression" for heavyhanded government interference with citizen rights, what would you suggest?

Ever since I moved to Nevada almost thirty years ago I've heard how most of the land of the state is wrongfully owned by the federal government -- a whopping 80%. Stone says the Federalist Papers argue for state ownership of the land, and in any case it should be available to ranchers for grazing their cattle. Although if you take a glance at the desert in this state it makes you wonder what on earth there is for a cow to graze on anyway, but that's another issue.

Sometimes I'm not sure if we're still a "liberal democracy" these days -- I'm not exaggerating at all when I say the activities of the Left, in government power and on the streets both, look like tyranny to me more and more every day, tyranny aimed at shutting up the right in particular. It's also tyranny enforced by murder, including an attempt on Stone a few months ago, though of course most of that can't be proved. If you don't see it you are not paying attention to the right sources. I voted for Trump as did so many in the hope that we could at least slow down that encroachment but all that's happened is that they've become more aggressive about it and Trump has caved on too many issues too.

As long as you don't call me PC names like racist and all that I'm not going to yell at you. In fact I may no longer even yell at those who do since as I've been pondering it I've realized God will vindicate me for all the lies against me anyway; vengeance is His, not mine. It just takes me a few days to recover from the wounds.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by vimesey, posted 07-20-2017 8:54 AM vimesey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Chiroptera, posted 07-20-2017 2:13 PM Faith has responded
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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 669
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 6.7


(2)
Message 204 of 254 (815448)
07-20-2017 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by NoNukes
07-20-2017 2:22 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
I would recommend that you read this UN report

You mean you don't have a video? That's your only shot.

Hey, maybe a picture will speak a thousand words:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2017 2:22 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11841
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 205 of 254 (815451)
07-20-2017 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Diomedes
07-20-2017 10:04 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Diomedes, posted 07-20-2017 10:04 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by NoNukes, posted 07-20-2017 11:23 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 206 of 254 (815459)
07-20-2017 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by New Cat's Eye
07-20-2017 10:23 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
quote:
Immigrated from Siberia

I suppose this would be funny absent the crushing irony that suppresses the reflex for me at least.

Edited by NoNukes, : Correct spelling.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-20-2017 10:23 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6397
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


(5)
Message 207 of 254 (815501)
07-20-2017 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Faith
07-20-2017 9:48 AM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
I don't consider the term "tyranny" to be a problem in this context where government force is used against citizens exercising their freedom of assembly to protest government ownership of land they have no right to, depriving the citizens of its rightful use, making them pay more than they can afford for that rightful use, then confiscating their cattle and arresting some of them.

These people are "protesting" against officials appointed by the democratically elected President enforcing regulations and laws under the authority granted by law by the democratically elected Congress. When protesters exercise their right to assembly to protest, say Trump's Muslim ban, suddenly it's all about how people should respect the results of the election.


Patriotism is the excuse that countries give to themselves for their failures. Stephen Marche

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Faith, posted 07-20-2017 9:48 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 07-20-2017 2:58 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26712
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 208 of 254 (815504)
07-20-2017 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Chiroptera
07-20-2017 2:13 PM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
Gosh that sounds so REASONable. And if the two situations were equivalent as you make them out to be I guess it would be reasonable. But protests against Trump are a dime a dozen these days, starting with his Presidency barely out of the gate, and most of them are engineered and aimed to destroy him personally far more than they are about any particular issue, some even with bussed-in and paid-for participants, and many become violent. It's hard for me to think of them as legitimate protests though there may be some clueless sincere liberals there too.

Do I really have to point out the difference from the Bundy situation?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Chiroptera, posted 07-20-2017 2:13 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Diomedes, posted 07-20-2017 3:13 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 210 by JonF, posted 07-20-2017 3:47 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 211 by Chiroptera, posted 07-20-2017 4:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 669
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 209 of 254 (815506)
07-20-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
07-20-2017 2:58 PM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
It's hard for me to think of them as legitimate protests though there may be some clueless sincere liberals there too.

You don't have to worry. I read that there were some dogmatic mis-informed conservatives counter-protesting as well. So maybe they cancelled each other out?

See? We can both be dismissive regarding people. Although to be fair, the Trump protests involve signs and marches. The Bundy 'protests' involved using guns and taking over a government building.

Oh, and here is an image you might find intriguing:

Food for thought.....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 07-20-2017 2:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 3998
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 210 of 254 (815509)
07-20-2017 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Faith
07-20-2017 2:58 PM


Re: Bundys victims of Constitution-violating government tyranny
most of them are engineered and aimed to destroy him personally far more than they are about any particular issue,

Bullshit. Show the evidence.

some even with bussed-in and paid-for participants, and many become violent.

Bullshit. Show the evidence. Note that "many" requires a comparison. "Many" compared with what, and why choose that? I would compare to all protests of a number of participants 50% or more the size of the smallest protest you cite.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Faith, posted 07-20-2017 2:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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