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Author Topic:   The Bundys and the Armed Occupation of a National Wildlife Refuge
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4407
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 16 of 254 (776477)
01-13-2016 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Omnivorous
01-13-2016 8:01 PM


This article is scary
This article is chilling. It is starting to feel like this is just one part of much larger, well-planned operation to steal public lands all over the western states.
How Refuge Occupation Could Fuel Land Privatization Movement

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Omnivorous, posted 01-13-2016 8:01 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Omnivorous, posted 01-14-2016 11:12 AM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3983
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.0


(6)
Message 17 of 254 (776498)
01-14-2016 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Tanypteryx
01-13-2016 10:39 PM


Re: This article is scary
Greed, mixed with an ideological and historical antipathy to the Feds, creates a special breed of patriot.
I followed a sidebar link on that page, Controversial Federal Grazing Fees Not A Great Deal For Anyone, to an article from Oregon Public Broadcasting. I'm still trying to work through all the points there, with some difficulty because it mixes numbers with general assertions, but many of the numbers there seem to contradict their headline.
But the first chart on that page, Federal Grazing Fees Vs. State and Private, is of particular interest to me (sorry, lost my screen capture with the Windows 10 upgrade and can't duplicate it here). One can see that the federal fees dipped in the early 1980s and have remained essentially flat with only a minor uptick in recent years. Private grazing fees have risen steadily since the early 80s, more steeply recently, and are now about 2.5x what they were in the 80s.
In the past five years, Oregon State grazing fees have risen more sharply than the others, after many flat years, and are now roughly 3x the federal rate.
You'd think that radical ranchers would occupy Oregon state lands and take over state government first, given the purported support of Oregonians, and you have to wonder why Oregon state can't do a better job of providing low cost leases.
The fact that federal fees cover a fraction of their management costs (we all make up the difference in taxes) suggests why Oregon's are so much higher, and makes it clear that, ultimately, only privitization could possibly serve the ranchers' land grab interests. But once they are private, the market rate of leases on that land would soar, as real world costs are recovered.
But a lot of people would make a lot of money in the process.
I've noticed in several reports the claim that Oregon is "land poor" because roughly half the state's 98K square miles are federal public lands. Oregon is the ninth largest state; 49K square miles weigh in as bigger than either Ohio or Pennsylvania. I understand that much of Oregon may not provide optimal terrain and climate for ranching, but that hardly seems an argument for turning it all over to what appears to be at best a marginally appropriate use.
I live in a small village in the Adirondacks, just a few miles from the Blue Line that defines the Adirondack State Park. The tourism and hospitality industries provide major influxes of cash to communities nearby and within the Park. Many of the communities here feel disadvantaged by this, convinced that a free hand at logging, mining, and vacation home/resort development would rescue them from their economic doldrums. The kids wouldn't have to leave to find a future, and the standard of living would improve.
They're probably right in the short term. A boom fueled by resource extraction and construction would probably lift all boats. But then what? People come here because it is beautiful and unspoiled: cut down the trees and mine the hills, ring the protected lakes with resorts and fill them with jet skis, and tourists could find everything we've got a lot closer to home. Despoiling these lands would be like using all your seed corn to make one great big enchilada: the boom would be a bomb.
Driven through W. Virgina lately? I stopped and wept the last time I drove through their zone of mountaintop coal extraction. I haven't been back.
The resentment of environmental and use laws also infuriate the local folks here. Winter sports--hunting, snowmobiling, cross-country skiing--are important attractors. There are 1,800 miles of snowmobile trails in the Park. But that's not enough--there is constant pressure to open up more, including into areas that enjoy the Park's highest protected status. If there is a one mile trail hike to a trout stream, the snowmobilers and 4-wheelers insist it is unfair to keep their vehicles off that trail. If a lake's pristine quiet is protected, then the lobbying is for opening up old fire and logging roads so that motorboats can use it, too.
It's only fair, they say. We should be able to use every square inch accessible to deep back country hikers and campers. Every lake should enjoy the noise, fuel and invasive species pollution brought by motorboats.,
This fight isn't going away anywhere. Some folks look at the natural world and see $$$ hanging from the trees or tumbling across the prairies and deserts. That extracting those $$$ would forever destroy a resource that banks many millions of dollars per year for local communities in perpetuity is irrelevant. We see again that there is no conserve in conservatives: drill it all, mine it all, cut it all down: our future generations can solve their own resource problems; the loss of truly wild nature isn't seen as a problem.
There may be more toxic mixes than greed and ideology (faith and ethnic fear/hate?), but I don't know any that pose a greater threat to a natural heritage that belongs to us all. There are also many New Yorkers determind to protect the Park, and I suspect that the ranchers, while succeeding in rousing like-minded folks, have also galvanized many more Americans who are aghast at their actions and intentions. I hope so.
Edited by Omnivorous, : Ack...fixed one thing, live with the rest.
Edited by Omnivorous, : Just couldn't leave cross-country skiing without the second o...

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-13-2016 10:39 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-14-2016 12:55 PM Omnivorous has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4407
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(2)
Message 18 of 254 (776500)
01-14-2016 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Omnivorous
01-14-2016 11:12 AM


Re: This article is scary
I followed a sidebar link on that page, Controversial Federal Grazing Fees Not A Great Deal For Anyone, to an article from Oregon Public Broadcasting. I'm still trying to work through all the points there, with some difficulty because it mixes numbers with general assertions, but many of the numbers there seem to contradict their headline.
The irony is that the ranchers have been getting a fantastic deal for more than a century. Extremely cheap grazing fees plus the feds do all the work as far as restoration of damage caused by grazing and control of invasive weeds.
I found this to be a very informative commentary about what these guys are after. The Bundys Have A Vision For The West, and You Aren't Included
quote:
Flash forward from 1947 to 2015, and think of this week's revelation that the occupiers at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge have been removing fences put in place by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to regulate where livestock can graze on the refuge.
That's right, "regulate." Not "prevent." Of 560 National Wildlife Refuges across the country, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service permits grazing on at least 183. The Malheur NWR is one of those 183, and its staff have a reputation for being quite willing to work with local ranchers. Malheur staff and local ranchers have worked for the last couple of decades to craft a management plan intended to provide food for cattle while improving wildlife habitat.
quote:
It's not hard to find environmentalists who object to such collaborative solutions between livestock growers and land managers, but those environmentalists don't run the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Or the Bureau of Land Management. Or the U.S. Forest Service. Grazing is even permitted in 32 units of the National Park system, including the Mojave National Preserve.
quote:
It's long been a truism that no industrial sector has been so coddled, with so little economic benefit in return, as public lands livestock grazers. The entire public lands ranching industry generates just three percent of the beef produced in the U.S., and accounts for less than one percent of either jobs or income even in ranch-heavy states like Wyoming and Montana.
That's despite significant federal subsidies. In 2016, it costs $1.69 a month to graze a cow and calf on BLM or Forest Service lands. That's somewhere around a sixth of what it costs the Feds to administer the grazing program, and as little as a tenth what ranchers pay for their livestock to graze on private lands.
quote:
The Federal government also spends an undisclosed amount -- certainly well into the millions of dollars each year -- on killing predators ranchers fear may be targeting their livestock, said campaign being administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Wildlife Services division.
And that's not counting the money we spend to repair landscapes, control invasive plants spread by livestock, fight fires sparked by those invasive species, and even to convene years-long collaboration sessions on the sage grouse instead of inconveniencing ranchers by just listing the species as endangered.
quote:
It's worth noting that most local ranchers in Harney County have treated the Bundy Bunch with something like derision.
By contrast, Ammon Bundy and the rest of his band seem stuck back in a 19th Century that never actually happened, where ranchers are "the people" and the actual people who might want to hike, camp, or watch birds on land they own are considered jackbooted thugs, good only for paying the bills and then staying away, carefully keeping to the front side of the No Trespassing sign.
So we can assume that the Bubbas will still have their hands out for public subsidies after they steal public lands. Considering the lack of response to the occupation by the DOJ so far, they might just get away with it.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Omnivorous, posted 01-14-2016 11:12 AM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Omnivorous, posted 01-14-2016 5:43 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3983
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.0


(3)
Message 19 of 254 (776507)
01-14-2016 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Tanypteryx
01-14-2016 12:55 PM


Urgent history
Tanypteryx writes:
I found this to be a very informative commentary about what these guys are after. The Bundys Have A Vision For The West, and You Aren't Included
If I could persuade everyone to read one article on the public land use issue, it would be this one.
I recently read a history of the transcontinental railroad, so I had some idea of the land grab associated with it; similarly, I was aware of the abuses by large ranchers of the Homestead Act--as the article notes, even Hollywood westerns made that clear.
But I found the scale of the loss/theft of public lands over the last 150 years staggering.
I'm not going to quote to illustrate it here. Read it.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-14-2016 12:55 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 20 of 254 (776509)
01-14-2016 6:57 PM


Now they have elected a "judge" who will try Hammond v. Bureau of Land Management. He will prepare a finding.
Words fail.
Access denied | Crooks and Liars
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3983
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.0


(2)
Message 21 of 254 (776550)
01-15-2016 4:28 PM


Hunters vs. Ranchers
Hunters Push Back, Tear Down Militants' Sign At Malheur Refuge
quote:
A group of Oregon sportsmen are attempting to drum up a formal opposition to the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in eastern Oregon.
Backcountry Hunters & Anglers, a sportsmen’s group based in Joseph, Oregon, posted a video to its Facebook page Tuesday showing a man tearing a makeshift sign used by militants to cover a refuge sign.
...
In the video released by the sportsmen, they say by tearing down the sign they are removing extremist attempts to grab our public lands.
...
It’s a baldfaced grab at the lands that belong to the people of the United States, Heckert said.
I can guarantee what that means is that pretty soon they’ll start saying, ‘Well, you guys can’t come out on this land because it’s ranchland.’
I've quoted most of the meat, but there's a heart-warming video
Hunters vs. ranchers: just when I was wondering, where's Gary Cooper when you need him?
I'm pleased to report hearing similar sentiments from hunters (everybody hunts here); and while New York cattle ranching is miniscule compared to the western states, the ranchers I know, who work hard to make a living without subsidies, show nothing but disdain for the terrorists.
Big Ken (Rocky to his friends), who shares my fondness for biscuits and gravy at Motors, and who supplements his ranching income by hauling other folks' cattle to market, says of the occupiers' long absence from their ranches, "Those guys ain't ranchers, they're investors."

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4407
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(4)
Message 22 of 254 (776552)
01-15-2016 4:40 PM


Another Point of View
I seem to be spending more time than I really want, looking for stories and opinions opposed to the criminals mounting an armed occupation on public land in SE Oregon.
Tobias Coughlin-Bogue writes about another point of view on the issues involving Malheur.
My Dad Worked at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, and He Knows What Happens When Ranchers Get Their Way (emphasis mine)
quote:
But there is one more point to be made here: The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge is also culturally significant. It isn’t federally protected because the government hates ranchers, it’s federally protected because the American people, like the Dixie Chicks, love wide-open spaces.
quote:
Bundy seems to assume that if the federal government let the ranchers manage their own affairs, we’d all be riding the gravy train to prosperity station.
But my dad worked on the refuge as a field archaeologist for five years in the 1970s, and he has a very different story to tell: My first experience with cattle grazing on the refuge lands was in the south part of the refuge near Frenchglen. Several fields between the west side canal and the Donner und Blitzen River were being used for grazing. There were lots of cattle there. I think these cattle were from one of the larger ranches in the area, can’t say which one, but Roaring Springs Ranch comes to mind. The cattle had pretty much eaten just about all available vegetation there. These fields were merely mud and cow shit. It was ugly. We were not able to survey these fields for prehistoric sites until a few years later when the fields were not used for grazing.
quote:
As my dad recalls, this poor stewardship of the land was what drove the government to limit grazing and buy up ranches:
From that time, the refuge management has focused on running a wildlife refuge, not a ranch.
quote:
...Bundy and his little band of misguided patriots are clinging to the notion that they’re fighting for the American people. What they’re really fighting for is the right to destroy a beautiful place.
I find myself remembering many great experiences at Malheur. In 1974, I attended a 3-week nature photography course at the Malheur Environmental Field Station. The course was limited to 15 students and we had incredible access to some of the best wildlife, scenery, cultural, and historical areas on and around the refuge.
Prior to that time and for many years after, my father and I spent long weekends every spring doing nature photography on the refuge and the surrounding areas. I like to visit during all the seasons most years.
The Malheur Environmental Field Station was run by Denzel Ferguson while I was there. Denzel Ferguson spent a quarter-century fighting to protect public lands from ranchers who thought they had a right to use them however they pleased. Ferguson wrote several books, Sacred Cows at the Public Trough, 1983 and Oregon's Great Basin Country, 1979.
The field station had 2 black and white darkrooms that were in use by the class at night. It was 3 weeks of the most intense focus on photography in my life, up until that time. The course was taught by a retired zoology prof from Oregon State University and could be taken for college credit. I was the oldest student by several years. There was one student who was in high school and the rest were in college. There were a couple dozen classes going on at the same time. Ornithology, Herpetology, Mammalogy, Archeology, Vascular Plants of the Steens, and many more were all packed with enthusiastic students. I learned so much. Richard Nixon resigned while I was there.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Omnivorous, posted 01-15-2016 5:17 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3983
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 23 of 254 (776554)
01-15-2016 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Tanypteryx
01-15-2016 4:40 PM


Re: Another Point of View
Tanypteryx writes:
I seem to be spending more time than I really want, looking for stories and opinions opposed to the criminals mounting an armed occupation on public land in SE Oregon.
Well, yeah, me too.
I've found opb.org really helpful at delivering some reassurance about local and regional sentiment out west: a 2013 survey showing western residents favor the benefits of public lands and parks over profit-driven exploitation by a wide margin; that 40% of Harney County residents are federal employees, with most families including both federal employees and ranchers, and that even local folks sympathetic to the Bundy's complaints reject their methods.
I'm a bit obsessed and considerably frightened, perhaps in part because I made my first wide-ranging visit to western states just a few years ago and have seriously considered relocating, spellbound by the splendor of it (Beartooth Pass is a life-changing sight); and because I fear a perfect storm of conservative electoral success and corporate-funded movements to take public lands for private profit.
Also, I have kids and grandkids. It's their land, too, and I'll be damned if I'll let these guys take it.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-15-2016 4:40 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3983
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.0


(1)
Message 24 of 254 (776559)
01-15-2016 6:28 PM


Some useful links
I'm trying to cut back but I found some useful links and encouraging Oregonian reactions here:
Wildlife enthusiasts plan protests over Oregon occupation
quote:
Friends of Malheur National Wildlife Refuge has gained about 400 new members to its original circle of about 150 since Bundy and about 20 other protesters took over the refuge on Jan. 2 after a rally to support the imprisoned local ranchers Dwight Hammond Jr., and his son, Steven Hammond.
New members and other donors have given about $10,000 to the group since the takeover began, Ivey said.
While the Friends would typically spend that money on projects, Ivey said, some of it now might have to go to fix things that they suspect occupiers have broken.
And while the Friends are careful about criticizing the law enforcement response, some are pushing the FBI and other agencies to act.
An online petition created on a White House Web page raises the point that continuing to allow the occupation could lead to similar actions in the future.
The comments are interesting as well, with some folks offering to run 'em off.
Don't mess with birders.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Theodoric, posted 01-15-2016 8:11 PM Omnivorous has not replied
 Message 27 by AZPaul3, posted 01-16-2016 7:48 AM Omnivorous has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 631 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


(2)
Message 25 of 254 (776562)
01-15-2016 7:40 PM


One of tne Militia arrested
Apparently, he was using one of the federally owned vehicles to pick up supplies, so he got arrested for unauthorized use of a government vehicle (for now)
Page not found | USUNCUT - US News | Breaking News | Latest News Today

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9133
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 26 of 254 (776563)
01-15-2016 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Omnivorous
01-15-2016 6:28 PM


Re: Some useful links
I found them earlier and sent them a little money.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Omnivorous, posted 01-15-2016 6:28 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 27 of 254 (776574)
01-16-2016 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Omnivorous
01-15-2016 6:28 PM


Re: Some useful links
And while the Friends are careful about criticizing the law enforcement response, some are pushing the FBI and other agencies to act.
Why? The growing public reaction to the Hummer Humper Brigade of Y'all Qaeda, Oregon Branch, is the best thing to happen to the "patriot" movement. Let them implode.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Omnivorous, posted 01-15-2016 6:28 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by RAZD, posted 01-16-2016 8:22 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1424 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 28 of 254 (776577)
01-16-2016 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by AZPaul3
01-16-2016 7:48 AM


Re: Some useful links
Why? The growing public reaction to the Hummer Humper Brigade of Y'all Qaeda, Oregon Branch, is the best thing to happen to the "patriot" movement. Let them implode.
But pick them off one by one or two by two as the leave. It's no Alamo ...
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8527
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 29 of 254 (776584)
01-16-2016 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by RAZD
01-16-2016 8:22 AM


Re: Some useful links
quote:
18 U.S. Code 2381:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death ...
Can this action in Oregon be considered levying war against the United States?
I think most of us realize such actions are actually attempts at theft from The People under the thin guise of anti-federal government "patriotism". I don't see treason here as much as out-and-out stupidity during the commission of a felony.

This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 254 (776588)
01-16-2016 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by AZPaul3
01-16-2016 11:33 AM


Re: Some useful links
Can this action in Oregon be considered levying war against the United States?
I think you are correct in saying that charging as treason is quite a stretch. On the other hand, why do that kind of stretching. I suspect that most of the occupiers have already accumulated enough ordinary violations as to put themselves away indefinitely. Just carrying a firearm into a federal building for the purpose of committing a crime is punishable by up to five years.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

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