Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 122 (8764 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-27-2017 9:44 AM
386 online now:
NoNukes, PaulK (2 members, 384 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: aristotle
Upcoming Birthdays: ooh-child
Post Volume:
Total: 812,202 Year: 16,808/21,208 Month: 2,697/3,593 Week: 164/646 Day: 42/62 Hour: 1/7

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
2345Next
Author Topic:   The great basic question of science on origin of life
Vladimir Matveev
Junior Member (Idle past 219 days)
Posts: 25
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 11-08-2015


Message 1 of 64 (776433)
01-13-2016 12:54 AM


The great basic question of science: Membrane compartment or non-membrane phase compartment (biophase) is a physical basis for origin of life?

Matveev V.V. 2016. Comparison of fundamental physical properties of the model cells (protocells) and the living cells reveals the need in protophysiology. International Journal of Astrobiology, Page 1-8.
Stable URL: http://journals.cambridge.org/abstract_S1473550415000476

Preview PDF with highlights: http://www.bioparadigma.spb.ru/...Preview.and.Highlights.pdf

The Biophase is the Physical Basis of Life
http://www.bioparadigma.spb.ru/...physical.basis.of.life.jpg

Comments and critisim are welcome.

Highlights
1. If life originated in seawater, the origin of the first cell inevitably comes down to the origin of the sodium pump and any structure supporting it – the lipid membrane – without which the work of any pump would make little sense.
2. Since the sodium-potassium pump (Na+/K+-ATPase) was discovered, no molecular model has been proposed for a predecessor of the modern sodium pump. Neither Miller’s electrical charges, nor Fox’s amino-acid condensation, nor building ready-made biomolecules into coacervates; none of this has managed to lead to the self-origination of the progenitor of the ion pump even in favourable lab conditions.
3. In 2007, we saw the simultaneous release of two articles, in which it was posited that life originated not in seawater as previously thought, but in smaller bodies of water with a K+/Na+ ratio necessary to sustain life. In this conditions sodium pump is not needed and the pump can originate later. But why the pump is needed if K+/Na+ ratio is good? The origin of the sodium pump in conditions where there is no natural need for it may require the agency of Providence.
4. Potassium Big Bang on Earth instead of potassium ponds.
5. Fox's microspheres do not need potassium ponds.
6. Despite the fact that Fox's microspheres have no fully functional membrane with sodium pumps and specific ion channels, they generate action potentials similar to that by nerve cells and in addition have ion channels which open and close spontaneously. This ability of the microspheres contradicts to the generally accepted ideas about the mechanism of generation of biological electrical potentials.
7. Hodgkin-Huxley model of action potentials is similarly well-compatible with both the nerve cell and Fox’s microsphere.
8. Biophase as the main subject of protophysiology. In the past they considered the living cell as a non-membrane phase compartment with different physical properties in comparison to the surrounding medium, and this physical difference plays a key role in cell function. According to a new take on an old phase, non-membrane phase compartments play an important role in the functioning of the cell nucleus, nuclear envelope and then of cytoplasm. Somebody sees the compartments even as temporary organelles. According to available data, the phase compartments can play a key role in cell signaling. In this historical context, studies in recent years dedicated to non-membrane phase compartments in the living cells sound sensational.
9. It is essentially a Protocell World which weaves known RNA World, DNA World and Protein World into unity.
10. In the view of non-membrane phase approach, the usage of liposomes and other membrane (non-biophase) cell models to solve the issue of the origin of life is a deadlock way of the investigation.

Edited by Vladimir Matveev, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 01-13-2016 8:06 AM Vladimir Matveev has responded
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 01-13-2016 1:22 PM Vladimir Matveev has responded
 Message 36 by Genomicus, posted 01-16-2016 1:10 PM Vladimir Matveev has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12516
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2 of 64 (776434)
01-13-2016 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Vladimir Matveev
01-13-2016 12:54 AM


Vladimir Matveev writes:

The great basic question of science: Membrane compartment or non-membrane phase compartment (biophase) is a physical basis for origin of life?

Can you introduce your topic in a little more detail? Defining your two alternatives and saying a little about the significant differences between them would be enough.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-13-2016 12:54 AM Vladimir Matveev has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-13-2016 9:00 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Vladimir Matveev
Junior Member (Idle past 219 days)
Posts: 25
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 11-08-2015


Message 3 of 64 (776435)
01-13-2016 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
01-13-2016 8:06 AM


Details
Are added details enough?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 01-13-2016 8:06 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12516
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 4 of 64 (776437)
01-13-2016 10:40 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The great basic question of science on origin of life thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18664
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 5 of 64 (776441)
01-13-2016 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Vladimir Matveev
01-13-2016 12:54 AM


Welcome to the fray, Vladimir Matveev,

Interesting article

3. In 2007, we saw the simultaneous release of two articles, in which it was posited that life originated not in seawater as previously thought, but in smaller bodies of water with a K+/Na+ ratio necessary to sustain life. In this conditions sodium pump is not needed and the pump can originate later. But why the pump is needed if K+/Na+ ratio is good? The origin of the sodium pump in conditions where there is no natural need for it may require the agency of Providence.

I have previously thought of the cell membrane as a means to preserve an environment where the replicating molecules survive and thus make them more viable than the molecules alone.

In the above scenario we could have evaporating ponds providing the concentrations, then the cell membranes to protect them, perhaps in a semi-dormant phase, and then the pump.

Enjoy

... as you are new here, some posting tips:

type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:

quotes are easy

and you can type [qs=RAZD]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:

RAZD writes:

quotes are easy

or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:

quote:
quotes are easy

also check out (help) links on any formatting questions when in the reply window.

For other formatting tips see Posting Tips
For a quick overview see EvC Forum Primer
If you have problems with replies see Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-13-2016 12:54 AM Vladimir Matveev has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-14-2016 8:02 AM RAZD has responded

  
Vladimir Matveev
Junior Member (Idle past 219 days)
Posts: 25
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 11-08-2015


Message 6 of 64 (776479)
01-14-2016 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
01-13-2016 1:22 PM


RAZD: "In the above scenario we could have evaporating ponds providing the concentrations, then the cell membranes to protect them, perhaps in a semi-dormant phase, and then the pump."
Matveev: Only one question: why membrane sodium pump is needed in the potassium pond? In the pond K+/Na+ ratio is the same as in the living cell.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 01-13-2016 1:22 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 01-14-2016 8:42 AM Vladimir Matveev has responded
 Message 9 by AZPaul3, posted 01-14-2016 9:52 AM Vladimir Matveev has not yet responded
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 01-14-2016 9:53 AM Vladimir Matveev has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15645
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 7 of 64 (776483)
01-14-2016 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Vladimir Matveev
01-14-2016 8:02 AM


If you'd used the quote codes your message would have looked like this:

RAZD writes:

In the above scenario we could have evaporating ponds providing the concentrations, then the cell membranes to protect them, perhaps in a semi-dormant phase, and then the pump.

Only one question: why membrane sodium pump is needed in the potassium pond? In the pond K+/Na+ ratio is the same as in the living cell.

See RAZD's Message 5 for an explanation of how to use quote codes, or see dBCode help for quoting. You can also click the Peek button for this message, but in that case ignore my use of the [indent] and [blockcolor]. They're only there for presentation purposes.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-14-2016 8:02 AM Vladimir Matveev has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-14-2016 8:53 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Vladimir Matveev
Junior Member (Idle past 219 days)
Posts: 25
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 11-08-2015


Message 8 of 64 (776484)
01-14-2016 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Percy
01-14-2016 8:42 AM


quote:
See RAZD's Message 5 for an explanation of how to use quote codes

Thanks, Percy.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 01-14-2016 8:42 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 9 of 64 (776486)
01-14-2016 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Vladimir Matveev
01-14-2016 8:02 AM


why membrane sodium pump is needed in the potassium pond? In the pond K+/Na+ ratio is the same as in the living cell.

First, evolution does not work with a purpose. Is there some reason such a pump, even a most primitive one, could not develop absent a need? Second, does the ratio remain the same forever?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-14-2016 8:02 AM Vladimir Matveev has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18664
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 10 of 64 (776487)
01-14-2016 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Vladimir Matveev
01-14-2016 8:02 AM


Only one question: why membrane sodium pump is needed in the potassium pond? In the pond K+/Na+ ratio is the same as in the living cell.

To contain the concentration when the pond is diluted (rains) and perhaps they get flushed out of the pond into a stream etc. So the proto-life is now capable of surviving drought with the membrane and flood with the pump.

It is surviving to reproduce, it is evolving. I see "life" beginning when evolution begins - beneficial traits are passed down from generation to generation.

See Definition of Life for discussion and Message 69 and Message 75 for more of my comments.

Enjoy

ps you can use the "peek" function to see how things are coded

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-14-2016 8:02 AM Vladimir Matveev has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-14-2016 10:02 AM RAZD has responded

  
Vladimir Matveev
Junior Member (Idle past 219 days)
Posts: 25
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 11-08-2015


Message 11 of 64 (776488)
01-14-2016 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by RAZD
01-14-2016 9:53 AM


quote:
First, evolution does not work with a purpose. Is there some reason such a pump, even a most primitive one, could not develop absent a need? Second, does the ratio remain the same forever?

Sea tide floods potassium pond. And what happens after that?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 01-14-2016 9:53 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-14-2016 10:10 AM Vladimir Matveev has not yet responded
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 01-14-2016 10:33 AM Vladimir Matveev has not yet responded

    
Vladimir Matveev
Junior Member (Idle past 219 days)
Posts: 25
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Joined: 11-08-2015


Message 12 of 64 (776489)
01-14-2016 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Vladimir Matveev
01-14-2016 10:02 AM


quote:
To contain the concentration when the pond is diluted (rains) and perhaps they get flushed out of the pond into a stream etc. So the proto-life is now capable of surviving drought with the membrane and flood with the pump.

We need physical mechanisms rather than general assumptions. Pump, pump, pump... Where is experimental evidence of its spontaneous origin? There is no evidences, no proofs! No pump, no life.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-14-2016 10:02 AM Vladimir Matveev has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 01-14-2016 10:25 AM Vladimir Matveev has not yet responded
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 01-14-2016 10:39 AM Vladimir Matveev has responded
 Message 16 by AZPaul3, posted 01-14-2016 10:41 AM Vladimir Matveev has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15645
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 13 of 64 (776490)
01-14-2016 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Vladimir Matveev
01-14-2016 10:10 AM


Vladimir Matveev writes:

We need physical mechanisms rather than general assumptions. Pump, pump, pump... Where is experimental evidence of its spontaneous origin? There is no evidences, no proofs! No pump, no life.

For the sake of discussion let's say that there's no pump, and that that means there's no life. But obviously there's life, so what does the absence of a sodium pump mean to you?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-14-2016 10:10 AM Vladimir Matveev has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18664
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 14 of 64 (776492)
01-14-2016 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Vladimir Matveev
01-14-2016 10:02 AM


quote:
First, evolution does not work with a purpose. Is there some reason such a pump, even a most primitive one, could not develop absent a need? Second, does the ratio remain the same forever?

That was AZPaul3 in Message 9. The correct [reply] button is at the bottom of a post rather than at the top.

Indeed, I like to think of it as a series of accidents, some happy some not so happy.

Sea tide floods potassium pond. And what happens after that?

For the proto-life without a pump it has a problem maintaining it's optimum inner ecology, and osmosis would not help.

Thus an "accident" that provided a pumping action would be beneficial, allowing it to survive and breed in the wider environment.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-14-2016 10:02 AM Vladimir Matveev has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18664
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 15 of 64 (776493)
01-14-2016 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Vladimir Matveev
01-14-2016 10:10 AM


We need physical mechanisms rather than general assumptions. ...

Indeed, so now we need to look at what the physical mechanism is and then see if we can hypothesis and test how it could develop.

Enjoy

ps -- visited your lovely city in the 70's and rode on one of the hydrofoil boats.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-14-2016 10:10 AM Vladimir Matveev has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-14-2016 11:05 AM RAZD has responded

  
1
2345Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017