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Author Topic:   Did Jesus teach reincarnation?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 151 of 166 (777776)
02-08-2016 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by NoNukes
02-08-2016 2:47 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
The things on which all Christians should agree are fairly small in number.

Do you see a need to, kind of, police talk among Christians ? Or should we here flag talk of Christians to non-Christians about things not universally agreed upon by Christian brothers. I mean to raise the matter "Not all Christians agree on that point" ?

I see you have some 7,671 posts on the Forum. Maybe you said something about a matter about which all Christians are not in agreement.

I hope you will allow me the freedom to express enthusiasm about a matter I think I can pretty well establish as a helpful understanding of a Bible teaching.

The unity among Christian brothers is living in the realm of this indwelling Christ. He Himself is the oneness, really. When He comes into a man the whole Triune God comes into a man. Romans 8:9-11 very nicely reveals that.

My next post will say something about Romans 8:17.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 2:47 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 9:58 AM jaywill has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9650
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 152 of 166 (777778)
02-08-2016 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by jaywill
02-08-2016 9:48 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
Do you see a need to, kind of, police talk among Christians ?

Not sure what the point of your question is.

I'll admit that I am not a fan of telling people who are doing their best to follow Christ that they are not real Christians based on some doctrinal point that is not even scriptural. But policing talk? How could I do that?

If what you are saying is that you want a free hand to comment on some matter without a response, I don't think I owe you that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 9:48 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 10:12 AM NoNukes has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 153 of 166 (777779)
02-08-2016 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by NoNukes
02-08-2016 9:58 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
Not sure what the point of your question is.

I'll admit that I am not a fan of telling people who are doing their best to follow Christ that they are not real Christians based on some doctrinal point that is not even scriptural. But policing talk? How could I do that?


Did I tell someone here they were not a real Christian ?

quote:

If what you are saying is that you want a free hand to comment on some matter without a response, I don't think I owe you that.


lol. Okay Nonukes.

Now to Romans 8:17

"And if children, heirs also; on the one hand, heirs of God; on the other, joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with Him that we may also be glorified with Him."

Here again, I see distinction but not separation. This probably involves a limitation of the human language. Maybe some would argue that distinction is separation and visa versa.

But given the whole context of the Bible, heirs of God and, on the other hand, joint heirs of Christ, still speaks of one three-one God.

I would like to know your opinion about something here. When you read the phrase "heirs of God" do you think that means God is the one inherited? Or do you think it means the believers are inheritors who belong to God ?

That is a genuine question. Do you have a leaning one way or the other about - "heirs of God" ?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 9:58 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 10:30 AM jaywill has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9650
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 154 of 166 (777781)
02-08-2016 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by jaywill
02-08-2016 10:12 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
When you read the phrase "heirs of God" do you think that means God is the one inherited?

It clearly does not mean God inherited. That's why the joint heirs with Jesus is problematic.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 10:12 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 10:37 AM NoNukes has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 155 of 166 (777783)
02-08-2016 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by NoNukes
02-08-2016 10:30 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
It clearly does not mean God inherited. That's why the joint heirs with Jesus is problematic.

But why are you so sure that it cannot mean that God is the one inherited ?
You're as bad as I am !


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 10:30 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 10:45 AM jaywill has responded
 Message 157 by Admin, posted 02-08-2016 10:57 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9650
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 156 of 166 (777784)
02-08-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by jaywill
02-08-2016 10:37 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
But why are you so sure that it cannot mean that God is the one inherited ?

Because the text states otherwise. The text says that Christ inherits from God and we inherit jointly with Christ.

At some point it is necessary to actually give words some meeting. What is an heir and what does it mean to be joint heirs? These are terms with ordinary and quite literal meanings.

ou're as bad as I am !

Correct. I am not better than you. But that is not the question here. I'd like to see you make a case for God inheriting from himself.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 10:37 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 11:19 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 162 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 12:58 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12516
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 157 of 166 (777785)
02-08-2016 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by jaywill
02-08-2016 10:37 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
The previous verse might provide some helpful context. Here is Romans 8:16-17:

"The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Here's my attempt to translate this into plain English:

quote:
"The Holy Spirit bears witness with our own spirit that we are the children of god. And if we are the Children of God, then we are also the heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. If we suffer with Christ then we may also all be glorified together."

I think what is being sought is an explanation for how this could be interpreted as God being heir to anything, or inheriting anything.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 10:37 AM jaywill has not yet responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 158 of 166 (777787)
02-08-2016 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by NoNukes
02-08-2016 10:45 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
Because the text states otherwise. The text says that Christ inherits from God and we inherit jointly with Christ.

Interesting.

quote:

At some point it is necessary to actually give words some meeting. What is an heir and what does it mean to be joint heirs? These are terms with ordinary and quite literal meanings.

...

I'd like to see you make a case for God inheriting from himself.


That I may get to latter, because that is not what I was asking about.

This passage definitely cannot exclude the truth of saved men inheriting God as their inheritance. It must include that.

Here's why. The Holy Spirit is God. And Paul says that the growing Christians have "the firstfruits of the Spirit". That is they are enjoying something of God by means of His indwelling Holy Spirit. That is God the Spirit has become an initial enjoyment they possess.

" ... but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit ... "(v.23a)

Paul's audience have as their possession "the firstfruits of the Spirit" . This they have as a foretaste of a fuller taste to come. This they have of God as a kind of appetizer of a full course to be theirs at a future time.

Here he speaks of the fuller enjoyment of God the Holy Spirit to come -

" ... but we who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we groan in ourselves eagerly awaiting sonship, the redemption of our bodies."

What he is saying is that the Christians, in their immaterial part, in their spirit and soul, today enjoy the inheritance of the Holy Spirit in that part of their beings. But they "eagerly await" this enjoyment to spread even into their physical bodies. That is they await the foretaste they inherit to expand to the fuller taste in their resurrected and glorified bodies.

This succeeding "fruit" of the Spirit will expand to be a fuller enjoyment known as "the redemption of our body". God starts to be possessed within the spirit of man. God continues to grow in the soul of man. God finally swallows up the body of man to fully saturate the saved man in the divine life.

So "heirs" of God has to include the meaning of possessing God Himself. The "firstfruits of the Spirit" is inherited in the church age. The redemption of the body as a continuation of the work of the Spirit of God, is eagerly looked forward to at the second coming of Christ.

Not only this, but to have God as our "Daddy" or our "Abba" - our own dear Father, sweetly and intimately, is for the Christian to inherit God Himself.

" For you have not received a spirit of slavery bringing you into fear again, but you have received a spirit of sonship in which we cry, Abba, Father !

The Spirit Himself bearing witness with our spirit [edited] that we are children of God." (vs. 15,16)

Formerly, these people were in a kind of slavery. That is laboring to do the best they could to be well pleasing to God through works of the law. Now they have been born of God to become His children. The life of God has been imparted into them. Now they can cry out in the most intimate fellowship with God -

"Daddy, my own Daddy! Abba Father. Now I have You, God, as my dear Abba Father. "

This surely is moving fallen sinners from being alienated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18) into an intimate "organic" joining of their innermost beings to God making Him their dear and sweet "Abba, Father".

They have become heirs of God Himself. The phrase "heirs of God" cannot possibly exclude that sinners receive God as their Father in coming to Jesus Christ.

I hope to speak to "joint heirs with Christ" in a subsequent post.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : Left out words from verse 16 "with our spirit"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 10:45 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 11:30 AM jaywill has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9650
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 159 of 166 (777788)
02-08-2016 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by jaywill
02-08-2016 11:19 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
This passage definitely cannot exclude the truth of saved men inheriting God as their inheritance. It must include that.

Okay. This is not a point that I addressed. I misinterpreted your question as saying God was the indirect object of inheriting and not the direct object. Even though I have no idea what you mean by inheriting God, the idea is not excluded by 8:17 which does not detail what is inherited. I suggest that it does not advance the proposition either.

I hope to speak to "joint heirs with Christ" in a subsequent post.

I assumed you were doing so here, but apparently I erred. Isn't this your third announcement that you would get to my question?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 11:19 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 12:12 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 161 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 12:31 PM NoNukes has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 160 of 166 (777789)
02-08-2016 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by NoNukes
02-08-2016 11:30 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
Even though I have no idea what you mean by inheriting God, the idea is not excluded by 8:17 which does not detail what is inherited.

The Trinity is about God dispensing His riches through Christ, by the Spirit, to the believers.

" He will glorify Me, for He will receive of Mine and will declare it to you.

All that the Father has is Mine; for this reason I have said that He receives of Mine and will declare it to you." (John 16:14,15)

All that that Father has is the possession of the Son. And the Holy Spirit will convey all these riches to the believers in the Son. Do you see a transmission of an eternal inheritance of God Himself into the believers ?

God the Father has. God the Son receives. God the Spirit conveys all this wealth to the believers in Christ.

In Romans 8 the believers inherit Christ the Son and with Christ the Son "all things".

"Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things? " (v.32)

Of course "all things" there include even negative things which God causes to work out for His sovereign will over the sons He is perfecting.

All things, mean all the past, all that has happened to the believers, all things good or bad that God is able in His eternal purpose to cause to work on behalf of the perfecting of His children.

" And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (v.28)

The believers inherit God Himself as their Father.
The believers inherit all things to be used by God for their growth and transformation into the image of the Firstborn Son Christ (v.29).
The believers inherit the restored creation, brought back from the slavery of corruption.

They inherit the divine life in every part of their being eventually.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 11:30 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 161 of 166 (777790)
02-08-2016 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by NoNukes
02-08-2016 11:30 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
Isn't this your third announcement that you would get to my question?

I don't know the count.

Above I wrote about the three-one God still being revealed in the believers being co-heirs with Christ.

What is going on there is that to the present time - they are heirs of God.
To a future time they will be co-heirs with Christ.

To be co-heirs with Christ is however conditional. There is an "IF" related to being co-heirs with Christ.

"And if children, heirs also; on the one hand, heirs of God;

on the other joint heirs with Christ, IF INDEED ... we suffer with Him that we may also be glorified with Him." (v.17)

If you study the chapter carefully, you should see that the suffering is to MATURE the children into grown up sons. The suffering drives them deeper and deeper into Christ, to live by Christ.

The suffering is used by God to give us the incentive to depend upon Christ. As we depend upon the indwelling Lord Jesus, He spreads more and more of His nature into our souls. That spreading of His life into our souls grows children up. And as a result the children are matured to be in a position to share the coming kingdom of Christ along with Him as co-heirs.

The process can be postponed. The process cannot be stopped.
The process can be prolonged. The process cannot be altogether halted.

This we can ascertain with other portions of the Bible.

Here at the conclusion of the Bible we all the children finally as sons inheriting God and with God the blessings of the new heaven and new earth.

"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me." (Rev. 21:7)

Heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ is the destiny of the Christians. But I have a feeling that I still am not relating this enough to the three-one God for you.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 11:30 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 3:34 PM jaywill has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 162 of 166 (777791)
02-08-2016 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by NoNukes
02-08-2016 10:45 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
What is an heir and what does it mean to be joint heirs?

The first thing heirs are in this chapter are possessors of God as a Father in life.
Of course they had to be forgiven and justified in order to have God as their Father.

The Holy Spirit bears witness deep within in their regenerated spirit that God is now their dear Father. They inherit God is "Abba Father" - a sweet personal and intimate possession.

They possess His life. This elementary relationship with God restricts His chirldren and limits His children in a saving way; a transforming and conforming way. In the process of them learning to live by a new life relationship they mature from children to sons.

Sons are qualified to be co-heirs with the Firstborn Son Jesus. Suffering helps to conform them into maturity. This is why Paul labors to teach the believers to have a positive attitude towards these sufferings. They work to prepare the coming glory to be revealed in them:

"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed upon us." (v.18)

So the inheritors of God should believe that God loves them and is able to cause all things to work together for the fulfillment of His eternal purpose.

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. " (v.28)

What does suffering DO for the believers? It causes them to HAVE to live by another life which is able to pass through anything. That is Christ Himself indwelling them (vs. 9-11).

If we allow this suffering to drive us deeper into living by and in Jesus Christ, we will be conformed to His image and prepared to be co-heirs with Him at His return.

The inheritance of Christ is a man who expresses God. God desires that all be perfected to share in the expression of God in humanity along with His Son. It is a destiny that has been pre- marked out. And in the eyes of God, it has taken place already. So He speaks of glorified in verse 30 in the past tense.

It is sure and certain to take place that believers are conformed to the image of Christ the Firstborn Son of "many brothers".

"Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers;

And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified." (vs.29,30)

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 10:45 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9650
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 163 of 166 (777800)
02-08-2016 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by jaywill
02-08-2016 12:31 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
Heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ is the destiny of the Christians. But I have a feeling that I still am not relating this enough to the three-one God for you

I yield. You win.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by jaywill, posted 02-08-2016 12:31 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by jaywill, posted 02-09-2016 7:23 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 164 of 166 (777817)
02-09-2016 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by NoNukes
02-08-2016 3:34 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
I win ?

Anyway, the Lord is recovering this realization throughout the earth in these last of days. We live under this realization.

www.localchurches.org

We better get back to the subject of "Did Jesus teach reincarnation ?"
No. He taught God's full salvation though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by NoNukes, posted 02-08-2016 3:34 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 165 of 166 (777818)
02-09-2016 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by LamarkNewAge
01-16-2016 7:57 AM


Re: Just to be clear
quote:
This is a 100% avatar statement. The definition of "avatar" is what he just said (if) as God "descended from heaven".

To the rest, the whole chapter 3:1-14 is about reincarnation for the rest of us. Then it seems to get twisted


Come back Shane.

You said above that John's Gospel surely must be fictional. Yet you use John's Gospel (John 3:13) to assert your concept about Jesus teaching about Avatars. What's up with this ?


This message is a reply to:
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