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Author Topic:   Did Jesus teach reincarnation?
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 121 of 166 (777429)
01-30-2016 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by jaywill
01-30-2016 6:17 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
I take it as me tending to agree with the New Testament about Abraham

Amusing.

All you would have to do to demonstrate this is to point out where I disagree with the New Testament. Instead what we find in this case is me demonstrating that the text does not say what you claim and then you changing your story until you are in agreement with the text, but then fail to make your point.

Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament discuss Abraham's belief in resurrection. Your attempts to make his wife's fertility or his own advanced age equivalent in Abraham's mind to resurrection just don't work.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jaywill, posted 01-30-2016 6:17 PM jaywill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-03-2016 6:03 PM NoNukes has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 764
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 122 of 166 (777565)
02-03-2016 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by NoNukes
01-30-2016 10:38 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
To be fair, Hebrews 11 might say that Abraham accepted some sort of resurrection. Romans 4 doesn't say it though.

It depends on the interpretation.

Here is the (generally more dependable)NRSV translation of the relevant part of Hebrews 11.

quote:

17 By faith Abraham, when put to the test, offered up Isaac. He who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son, 18 of whom he had been told, It is through Isaac that descendants shall be named for you. 19 He considered the fact that God is able even to raise someone from the deadand figuratively speaking, he did receive him back

The Hebrews 11 logic seems related to the text of Paul in Romans 4. Paul wrote on the human sacrifice issue too. Paul, along with the Hebrews author, seems to have been straining to find an example of the afterlife in the patriarchal stories. It was a metaphor in Paul's eyes.

The fact that Hebrews had to use a metaphorical teaching technique should speak volumes to us.

Here is the text of Hebrews 11.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11&v...

Notice that it was ONLY the 2 Maccabees reference (verses 35-37) that covered the individuals holding literal resurrection views. Daniel wasn't mentioned, but if he had been mentioned by the unknown Hebrews author, then that would have been all they certainly had from the Jewish canon.

Jaywill rejects 2 Maccabees (just like he rejects the "Ethiopian" Book of Enoch) so Hebrews 11 is absent any literal Old Testament "Biblical" characters (or texts) in Hebrews 11 holding resurrection views.

Jesus mentioned reincarnation in more New Testament spots than the entire Old Testament (as protestants consider such) verses/spots covering resurrection beliefs.

Additionally, Jesus mentioned reincarnation more times than Paul (or any New Testament text outside Matthew and Luke) mentioned the virgin birth. The virgin birth wasn't mentioned in Mark or John or Acts or in any of the 13 letters claiming to be Pauline.

At least Jesus seemed to predict that reincarnation would be difficult to swallow. For those with "eyes to see" implies few would see exactly what he was teaching.

No text claiming to be Pauline (aside from the dubious(?)possibility of Romans 9:5 being correctly translated in the KJV, NIV, etc. - compare the NRSV translation) called Jesus God till 60 A.D. Colossians, assuming Paul wrote it (and I don't), was a (59-61 A.D.) "prison epistle" just like Philippians (which Paul did write for certain).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 01-30-2016 10:38 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by jaywill, posted 02-03-2016 7:58 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
 Message 124 by Jon, posted 02-03-2016 8:30 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
 Message 125 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2016 9:46 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
 Message 127 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2016 7:58 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 123 of 166 (777572)
02-03-2016 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by LamarkNewAge
02-03-2016 6:03 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
The Hebrews 11 logic seems related to the text of Paul in Romans 4. Paul wrote on the human sacrifice issue too. Paul, along with the Hebrews author, seems to have been straining to find an example of the afterlife in the patriarchal stories. It was a metaphor in Paul's eyes.

It seems like you are attempting to say reincarnation is a main teaching of the New Testament but resurrection isn't. But there are many more mentions of resurrection. And you have one dubious mention of a passage which you're recommending as about reincarnation.

Do you seriously expect NT readers to put more weight on evidence of reincarnation in the New Testament ?

quote:

The fact that Hebrews had to use a metaphorical teaching technique should speak volumes to us.

What kind of "volumes" do you think it speaks ?

It is ironic that you are eager to dismiss as metaphorical speaking, the instance of Hebrews 11 but insistent that no metaphorical speaking could be occurring when Jesus speaks of John the Baptist being Elijah. This is very selective of you with a obvious bias towards your favored interpretation.

Jesus looked out on the crowd sitting around Him and said that those who did the will of God were His mother, brothers and sisters.

"And someone said to Him, Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside to speak to You.

But He answered and said to him who spoke to Him, Who is My mother, and who are My brothers ? And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, Behold, My mother and My brothers!

For whoever does the will of My Father who is in the heavens, he is My brother and sister and mother." (Matt. 12:47-50)

This way of speaking was just as allegorical as Christ's speaking in Matt. 11:14 that John the Baptist (if they can receive it) was Elijah's coming. In neither case was Jesus speaking of reincarnation. In both cases allegorical speaking was used.

quote:

Jaywill rejects 2 Maccabees (just like he rejects the "Ethiopian" Book of Enoch) so Hebrews 11 is absent any literal Old Testament "Biblical" characters (or texts) in Hebrews 11 holding resurrection views.

You mean that I do not include them in the canon of the Hebrew Bible which is true.

There was much religious writing in the intertestamental time. Some spurious and false and other spiritual and sacred. And the New Testament writers make use of a few of possible references to them -

Jude 14-15 - Book of Enoch
- The Assumption of Moses

Second Timothy 3:8 - Possibly an allusion to the Penitance of Jannes and Jambres

The formula of "the Scripture says" or " It is written " is not used for these citations.

The continuity of the prophetic writings ended with the book of Malachi. And the evidence of this is:

1.) Malachi 4:5 said the next revelation from God would be just before the coming of the Messiah. And Zechariah 13:2-6 said there would be no true prophet in the intervening period.

2.) In the intertestamental period no prophet after Malachi is confirmed by First Mac. 4:45; 9:27; 14:41. Passages there say the people were waiting "until a prophet should arise".

The Manual of Discipline from the Qumran community in the years before Christ's birth similarly said they were looking for the "coming of a prophet".

3.) The Jewish historians Josephus said so. It also comes from the Talmud which stated - "After the latter prophets Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, the Holy Spirit departed from Israel".

Verification comes from the New Testament which never quotes a post- Malachi book as also uses the expression "from ... Abel to ... Zechariah" (Matt. 23:35) . The expression encompasses only the books from Genesis to ii Chronicals, the last book in the Jewish arrangement of the Hebrew Old Testament.

This information comes to me from the book A General Introduction to the Bible by Geisler and Nix published by Moody Press. The chapter is called Development and History of the Old Testament Canon.

It includes also a quote from a certain scholar Harris who wrote:

"The chain of prophets evidently wrote a chain of histories from Genesis through Nehemiah, and the writings of these prophets were accepted, one by one, through the centuries, until, when the Spirit of Prophecy departed from Israel, the canon was complete."

I don't reject books written during the Maccabean period as historically enlightening or even devotionally significant. I reject them as the oracles of God's inspired word, as Scripture.

quote:

Jesus mentioned reincarnation in more New Testament spots than the entire Old Testament (as protestants consider such) verses/spots covering resurrection beliefs.

Edited by jaywill, : Various typos in this post needed fixing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-03-2016 6:03 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 124 of 166 (777575)
02-03-2016 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by LamarkNewAge
02-03-2016 6:03 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
Jesus mentioned reincarnation in more New Testament spots...

And what spots would those be?

Additionally, Jesus mentioned reincarnation more times than Paul...

Where did Jesus mention reincarnation?

Where did Paul?

At least Jesus seemed to predict that reincarnation would be difficult to swallow.

When did he predict that?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-03-2016 6:03 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 125 of 166 (777576)
02-03-2016 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by LamarkNewAge
02-03-2016 6:03 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
Hebrews 11 is absent any literal Old Testament "Biblical" characters (or texts) in Hebrews 11 holding resurrection views.

I find this idea quite bizarre. At a minimum we have here a NT interpretation of an OT story indicating resurrection. Why isn't that at least consistent with the author of Hebrews believing in resurrection, regardless of whether he is mangling the story regarding Abraham or telling it correctly?

Your OP talks about Jews saying that Jesus or John the Baptist was Elijah. Is there any indication that Jesus confirmed any of those claims? Because it seems to me that he answered them by acknowledging that he (Jesus) was the Christ. I've always taken that answer to be a denial that Jesus was Elijah. And what about Jesus literally claiming to be the resurrection in John?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-03-2016 6:03 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 126 of 166 (777582)
02-04-2016 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by ringo
01-25-2016 12:31 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Skepticism is how you learn. There is no dishonor in being an honest skeptic.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 01-25-2016 12:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 02-04-2016 11:07 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 127 of 166 (777598)
02-04-2016 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by LamarkNewAge
02-03-2016 6:03 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
No text claiming to be Pauline (aside from the dubious(?)possibility of Romans 9:5 being correctly translated in the KJV, NIV, etc. - compare the NRSV translation) called Jesus God till 60 A.D. Colossians, assuming Paul wrote it (and I don't), was a (59-61 A.D.) "prison epistle" just like Philippians (which Paul did write for certain).

1.) No text claiming to be Pauline ... ?

First Timothy 1:1 -

"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope."

The claim to be a letter of Paul is evident.

2.) Paul, speaking of his past as a strict thiestic Pharisee, now confesses to us that he had committed blasphemy when persecuting the Christian church.

"Who formerly was a blasphemer ... but I was shown mercy because, being ignorant, I acted in unbelief." (See 1 Tim. 1:13)

A "blasphemer" is one who blasphemes God. When this Pharisee Saul of Tarsus was a persecutor of the Christian church he believed in God and was zealous for Judaism's tradition (Acts 22:3; Phil. 3:4-5) . As such a person he would never blaspheme Yahweh God. But he did speak evil things about the Lord Jesus.

Now he confesses that those evil things he spoke against Jesus Christ made him a "blasphemer". This proves that he believed in the deity of Christ. For him to persecute and speak evil against Christ was to commit the sin of blasphemy against God.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-03-2016 6:03 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2016 11:13 AM jaywill has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 128 of 166 (777607)
02-04-2016 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by LamarkNewAge
02-03-2016 6:03 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
Jesus mentioned reincarnation in more New Testament spots than the entire Old Testament (as protestants consider such) verses/spots covering resurrection beliefs.

Take note:

" I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes into Me, even if He should die, shall live; ..." (John 11:25)

I would remind you that Jesus said that He WAS and IS "the resurrection" (John 11:25) . This is more than mention resurrection. This is to point absolutely to Himself as the resurrection.

Can you show us any sacred text with someone saying that he IS the reincarnation ?

Many teachers have said great things. But Jesus pointed to Himself and said He was the light of the world. Jesus pointed to Himself and said He was the bread of life. And Jesus pointed to Himself and said He was "the resurrection and the [divine] life"

The main part of Jesus' teaching was just Himself. Especially in John if you remove Jesus Himself you remove the main focus of the teaching of Jesus.

Did the founder of Hinduism tell the world that he WAS the reincarnation ?
I don't think so. Neither did Buddha say that he WAS the Nirvana. Other teachers of world religions came with doctrines which can be believed apart from who they were. But Jesus said the resurrection is Himself, the life is Himself, and the light was Himself.

He never spoke of reincarnation and He said He WAS "the resurrection" .

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-03-2016 6:03 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13023
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 129 of 166 (777608)
02-04-2016 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
02-04-2016 1:19 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Phat writes:

Skepticism is how you learn. There is no dishonor in being an honest skeptic.


You're preaching to the choir, sister. Now tell it to jaywill.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-04-2016 1:19 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2016 1:03 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 130 of 166 (777609)
02-04-2016 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by jaywill
02-04-2016 7:58 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
A "blasphemer" is one who blasphemes God.

jaywill, this argument is particularly weak. Just saying that Paul blasphemed is not a very strong argument. Surely there are more direct statements from Paul about Lord Jesus. Would it not be blasphemy to spit on God's plan for our salvation, regardless of the details regarding Jesus and his divinity?

Or viewed another way, your argument is that blasphemy consists only of statements that deny God's divinity. Surely that is wrong. Surely Paul viewed his persecution of Christians as blasphemy.

I had not given this idea much thought. I have always taken for granted Paul's belief in the divinity of Jesus. But apparently this concept is difficult to show directly. The link below is to an argument making the case that Paul believed that Jesus was God.

https://carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god

Assuming that the scripture cited there are the verses making the strongest case, and maybe that assumption is bad, the best evidence seems to be verses where Paul refers to Jesus as Lord. But Lord has many meanings. And there are just as many references to Jesus as the son of God. Trinitarians of course think these mean the same thing, but the correctness of Trinity doctrine is fairly difficult to demonstrate. Paul says for example that there is " but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ". In context with all of the verses that speak of Jesus as the Son of God, I find the issue difficult to resolve textually based solely on what Paul says.

Perhaps there is no consistent answer, and perhaps that is the reason why different religious sects profess to follow Jesus yet come up with different answers.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2016 7:58 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2016 3:17 PM NoNukes has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 131 of 166 (777622)
02-04-2016 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ringo
02-04-2016 11:07 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Phat should inform you. You are skeptical about everything except your own skepticism.
I think you should be more skeptical about your own skepticism.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ringo, posted 02-04-2016 11:07 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by ringo, posted 02-05-2016 10:50 AM jaywill has responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 132 of 166 (777626)
02-04-2016 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by NoNukes
02-04-2016 11:13 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
jaywill, this argument is particularly weak.

No it is not a weak argument. It is really accumulative point adding to many of the points mentioned in that link to CARM - https://carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god.

Of the points mentioned in that article I already, in the course of this discussion, used some of those passages. I used Gal. 4:4; Rom. 8:3; Rom. 1:3-4; and 1 Cor. 15:47.

I added to those already discussed passages Paul admitting that he was a blasphemer to speak evil of Jesus. It was never my intention to resort to every evidence in every post on Christ being God.

However, the statement I wrote was not a rigorously good definition of the word "blasphemer."

quote:

Just saying that Paul blasphemed is not a very strong argument.

In an accumulative sense, given the other evidences of Paul's teaching, it is a strong argument. Since, LNR has seen the arguments above, and perhaps still is unpersuaded, I added First Timothy 1:13.

But if you're unimpressed with your own references at https://carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god I can easily see that you'd think First Timothy 1:13 isn't significant either.

quote:

Surely there are more direct statements from Paul about Lord Jesus.

The end of the article at https://carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god had a significant footnote.

" It is interesting to note that Paul never systematically defends his views of Jesus (Christology). He takes his devotion and belief in the divinity of Jesus for granted in the Churches to which he writes. "

I already pointed this out to LNR. When I discussed Romans 8:9-11 I told him that this was not a statement of systematic theology. But it experiential and proves that the Spirit of God to Paul was Christ and was also the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.

Your phrase "more direct statements" I take to mean more systematic defense of a more doctrinal kind of debate.

If you cannot grasp the significance of Paul saying that Christ who indwells the believers is also the Spirit of God and the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead, then you're missing how strong an indication it is of Paul regarding Jesus as God Himself.

quote:

Would it not be blasphemy to spit on God's plan for our salvation, regardless of the details regarding Jesus and his divinity?

I think Paul was not just saying he did nasty things to Christians. I think he is saying that the One who appeared to Him, he instantly recognized as the Lord God. And he had said insulting things about this Lord Jesus, blaspheming God.

" And he fell on the ground and heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?

And he [Paul] said, Who are You, Lord ? And He said. I am Jesus, whom you persecute." (Acts 9:4-5)

I have no doubt that at that moment Paul realized that the Lord God Himself was speaking to him, blinding him with a light beyond the sun - "And he said, Who are You, Lord"

No, I do not think Paul meant any old "lord" or dignitary or person who deserved respect. I believe that the One whom he now was told he was persecuting was God, his Lord.

In Timothy he admits that he had been a blasphemer against this "Lord" .

quote:

Or viewed another way, your argument is that blasphemy consists only of statements that deny God's divinity. Surely that is wrong. Surely Paul viewed his persecution of Christians as blasphemy.

No, my argument was that in this case, he had spoken evil of God Himself in speaking evil of Jesus. The first mention of the sin of blaspheming, I think, is in Leviticus 2310 where it spoke of the son of an Israelite woman who "blasphemed the Name and cursed" (Lev. 24:11)

That perhaps other forms of blasphemy could be committed is worth looking into. IMO, THIS is the form of blasphemy Paul was now confessing to. He had spoken evil of Jesus the One who was the Lord whom he persecuted.

When Paul says he was "an insulting person" (1 Tim. 1:13) I think he means he insulted God.

When he says he acted "being ignorant, I acted in unbelief" he meant he did not believe that this Jesus was the Lord God Himself.

" ... Who are You, Lord? ... I am Jesus, whom you persecute."

quote:

I had not given this idea much thought. I have always taken for granted Paul's belief in the divinity of Jesus. But apparently this concept is difficult to show directly. The link below is to an argument making the case that Paul believed that Jesus was God.

https://carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god


It may allude you because of Paul's usual frequent way of emphasizing that God was being imparted to and into the Christians. In other words, he spends much time to talk about the subjective experience of God as their life. God, in much of the NT, is the imparted God to be indwelling - the dispensed God to be living in man.

If you realize this emphasis it is easier to see that Jesus is God wanting to be dispensed into man.

Here we see God the Father is in them.

"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

The God Who is over all and IN ALL (all the members of the Body of Christ) is Jesus Christ in them too.

"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith"

The God and Father Who is in the Christians is also the Christ making His home in them, in their hearts (Eph. 3:17) .

The God Who is "over all" is the Triune God. And He is also Christ Who is in them (Eph. 3:17) .

Christ being IN them also makes them "the habitation [or dwelling place] of God in spirit" (2:22)

Much of Paul's speaking is about God imparted, God dispensed, God come to indwell, God to be the One living within as divine life. There is much writing along that line. And that exemplifies Paul's revelation that God is Jesus Christ.

quote:

Assuming that the scripture cited there are the verses making the strongest case, and maybe that assumption is bad, the best evidence seems to be verses where Paul refers to Jesus as Lord.

Good evidence is as I have stated above also. The dwelling place of God in spirit or the habitation of God indicates that God dwells within human beings. And He does so by means of being Jesus Christ making His home in their hearts through faith.

Christ comes in and God comes in.
Christ lives within and God lives within.

So Romans 8 also indicated that the One indwelling the believers is the Spirit of God Who is the Spirit of Christ Who is Christ Himself. And this indwelling One, is also "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead." (Rom. 8:9-11)

quote:

But Lord has many meanings.

Paul says that to the Christians, "to us" who believe in Christ, there is One particular Lord among many so-called lords.

" For even if there are so-called gods, ...even as there are many gods and many lords,

Yet to us there is one God, the Father, out from whom are all things, and we are unto Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through Him." ( 1 Cor. 8:5,6) .

So it is mysterious yet experiential. God is indwelling those who confess Jesus is the Lord. The Spirit of God indwelling us is Christ indwelling us.

quote:

And there are just as many references to Jesus as the son of God. Trinitarians of course think these mean the same thing, but the correctness of Trinity doctrine is fairly difficult to demonstrate.

The Trinity as a doctrine is not only difficult to explain but likely impossible to fully do so. The Trinity is not difficult to experience and enjoy. And the Romans 8 passage AND the Ephesians 4 passage were more on the side of experiencial rather than systematic debate.

Again, CARM's good article included this in the final footnote -

" It is interesting to note that Paul never systematically defends his views of Jesus (Christology). He takes his devotion and belief in the divinity of Jesus for granted in the Churches to which he writes.

I might not say Paul "never" does so. But I would say more often Paul speaks in terms of the believer's experience and participation in God in a subjective way.

Most people arguing that Jesus is not God want to see straightforward systematic theological formulas in the NT stating "Jesus is God".

What we see a lot of is that "God in you is Jesus." Or we see "Jesus in you is God." And the audience seems to know this.

quote:

Paul says for example that there is " but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ". In context with all of the verses that speak of Jesus as the Son of God, I find the issue difficult to resolve textually based solely on what Paul says.

Ask God for more experience of what Paul is speaking about. That's more than fair.

quote:

Perhaps there is no consistent answer, and perhaps that is the reason why different religious sects profess to follow Jesus yet come up with different answers.

I don't think it is that significant that every group does not use the exact same words. We're speaking of Someone who is unsearchably rich. Words cannot exhaust how wonderful He is. Nothing can compare to Him. No one can compete with how wonderful He is.

And the Apostle Paul prays that the eyes of our hearts would be enlightened to see the revelation of the Triune God becoming our mutual as Christians inheritance. I mean, we inherit God, and God inherits us - dwelling within us as eternal life.

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him,

The eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, etc. etc. " (Eph. 1:17 - 23)

It is understandable that some use this passage and others use another. What is unfortunate is the different appreciations would give rise to divisions of sects in the Body of Christ. That is a tragedy.

But that there are many ways of affirming that Christ is God is understandable. If it were only a matter of a mathematical like formula then probably the NT would not consist of 27 books.

The link https://carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god is definitely worth reading.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2016 11:13 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2016 4:50 PM jaywill has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 133 of 166 (777628)
02-04-2016 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by jaywill
02-04-2016 3:17 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
No it is not a weak argument. It is really accumulative point adding to many of the points mentioned in that link to CARM - https://carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god.

Why didn't you address any of my complaints about the strength of your argument?

However, the statement I wrote was not a rigorously good definition of the word "blasphemer."

Exactly.

Your phrase "more direct statements" I take to mean more systematic defense of a more doctrinal kind of debate.

Then let me correct you. I am asking for textual statements having less ambiguity than merely saying Paul blasphemed when attacking Christianity and thus Jesus is God because 'blasphemy'. Some of the statements at the link I provided are examples where the implication that Jesus is God far more direct than your argument, and yet still somewhat problematic. And that's even given that I accept Jesus divinity.

If you cannot grasp the significance...

Yeah, I can grasp just fine. How about if you make a better argument?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2016 3:17 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jaywill, posted 02-05-2016 12:23 AM NoNukes has responded

    
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 134 of 166 (777647)
02-05-2016 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by NoNukes
02-04-2016 4:50 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
Why didn't you address any of my complaints about the strength of your argument?

Much of the post dealt with the validity of the argument, particularly Paul's experience in the book of Acts. You will likely to think its a weak argument.

Maybe you consider very much of the New Testament as a weak argument.

quote:
Then let me correct you. I am asking for textual statements having less ambiguity than merely saying Paul blasphemed when attacking Christianity and thus Jesus is God because 'blasphemy'.

I didn't mention Christianity at all.
Christ said "Why do you persecute Me."

Who was that "Me" ? I said Paul realized that it was the Lord God.

quote:

Some of the statements at the link I provided are examples where the implication that Jesus is God far more direct than your argument,

Go with the discussion in that article then.
That is no loss to me personally.

But it seemed like you were still wavering about the article's points.

quote:

and yet still somewhat problematic. And that's even given that I accept Jesus divinity.

Do you accept the divinity of Jesus ?
If so, why do you accept the divinity of Jesus ?

quote:

Yeah, I can grasp just fine. How about if you make a better argument?

Tell me about the best argument that causes you to accept Jesus' divinity.

What is it ?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2016 4:50 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by NoNukes, posted 02-05-2016 9:40 AM jaywill has responded
 Message 137 by NoNukes, posted 02-05-2016 9:48 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 33 days)
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 135 of 166 (777648)
02-05-2016 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by LamarkNewAge
02-03-2016 6:03 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
quote:
Jesus mentioned reincarnation in more New Testament spots than the entire Old Testament (as protestants consider such) verses/spots covering resurrection beliefs.

Additionally, Jesus mentioned reincarnation more times than Paul (or any New Testament text outside Matthew and Luke) mentioned the virgin birth. The virgin birth wasn't mentioned in Mark or John or Acts or in any of the 13 letters claiming to be Pauline.

At least Jesus seemed to predict that reincarnation would be difficult to swallow. For those with "eyes to see" implies few would see exactly what he was teaching.


LNR,

On the mountain where Jesus appeared transfigured and with Elijah and Moses, God did not allow Peter to consider them on the same level. If you remember when Peter wanted to make three tabernacles - one for Elijah, one for Moses, and one for Christ, his foolishness was divinely interrupted like this:

"While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold a voice out of the cloud, saying,

This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found My delight. Hear Him!" (Matt. 17:5)

Every other significant servant of God was overshadowed by the uniqueness of the Son of God. God did not treat the three as co-equal Avatars or co-equal reincarnations. God made certain that the disciples understood that NO ONE but NO ONE could be on the same level as the Son of God.

After the solemnity and fear of the moment, they saw no one except Jesus only.

" And when the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were greatly frightened.

And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, Arise, and do not be afraid. And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone." (vs. 6-8)

What do you think about the fact that the Divine Majesty would not allow ANYONE to be considered on the same level of importance to Jesus ?

" This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I have found My delight. Hear Him! " (v.5)

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : typo on hear


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-03-2016 6:03 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
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