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Author Topic:   People ARE Mixing the Gospels Together!
ringo
Member
Posts: 12933
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 211 of 280 (780140)
03-11-2016 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Bob Bobber
03-11-2016 11:37 AM


Re: When the earth was in the first heaven
Bob Bobber writes:

Yes there are!


That's not a very strong argument. Point 'em out.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-11-2016 11:37 AM Bob Bobber has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-11-2016 12:05 PM ringo has responded

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 212 of 280 (780144)
03-11-2016 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by ringo
03-11-2016 11:47 AM


Re: When the earth was in the first heaven
I am thinking about jar's thoughts on something right now. I am not blowing off. I look forward to going down that road with you, but it is important to have jar come down that road with us. Please allow me to try to make a point with jar first. Thank you for your understanding.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by ringo, posted 03-11-2016 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 03-11-2016 12:07 PM Bob Bobber has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12933
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 213 of 280 (780145)
03-11-2016 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Bob Bobber
03-11-2016 12:05 PM


Re: When the earth was in the first heaven
Bob Bobber writes:

I am thinking about jar's thoughts on something right now.


I'm glad to see you're still thinking.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-11-2016 12:05 PM Bob Bobber has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-11-2016 12:15 PM ringo has responded

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 214 of 280 (780146)
03-11-2016 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by ringo
03-11-2016 12:07 PM


Re: When the earth was in the first heaven
A lot people got chips on the table. You made me get a Bible remember, so I dug my 'torah' out of the box I have in storage. I never thought I would have this much opposition, this is a tuff crowd. I see now that nobody is going to come on this forum and piss down these people's back and tell them it is raining.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 03-11-2016 12:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by ringo, posted 03-11-2016 12:21 PM Bob Bobber has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12933
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 215 of 280 (780148)
03-11-2016 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Bob Bobber
03-11-2016 12:15 PM


Re: When the earth was in the first heaven
Bob Bobber writes:

You made me get a Bible remember, so I dug my 'torah' out of the box I have in storage.


Imagine that, actually having to use a Bible in a discussion about the Bible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-11-2016 12:15 PM Bob Bobber has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-11-2016 12:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 216 of 280 (780154)
03-11-2016 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by ringo
03-11-2016 12:21 PM


Re: When the earth was in the first heaven
All the imagery in the 'torah' is a lot to take in. I like to reason, but I can and will use Chapter and Verse to make my points. But can anyone establish truth, besides your truth?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by ringo, posted 03-11-2016 12:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 03-11-2016 2:08 PM Bob Bobber has responded
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 03-12-2016 10:45 AM Bob Bobber has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28702
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 217 of 280 (780159)
03-11-2016 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Bob Bobber
03-11-2016 12:27 PM


Re: When the earth was in the first heaven
All the imagery in the 'torah' is a lot to take in. I like to reason, but I can and will use Chapter and Verse to make my points. But can anyone establish truth, besides your truth?

What is written is what is written; cherry picking verses and "proof texts" are simply bullshit.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-11-2016 12:27 PM Bob Bobber has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-12-2016 11:00 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24503
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 218 of 280 (780176)
03-12-2016 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bob Bobber
03-06-2016 11:35 AM


The Errors of Dispensationalism: Old and New Testaments are One Whole
Reviewing this thread I discovered that the OP has some interesting issues I thought I could respond to, that really didn't get addressed in our earlier exchange.

So-called Christendom today fails to rightly divide the word of truth, because they have mixed God’s program with Israel and his program with the Body of Christ and mixed dispensations together; dispensations that do not mix together, and as a result, they think they have taken on Israel’s role from the point where Israel left off.

Yes, "dispensationalism." That's where you are getting the idea that there are two gospels, which I was trying to answer earlier. I've been trying to represent the view of traditional Christianity to the best of my ability, which sees all of history as focused on the cross of Jesus Christ, including all of the Old Testament. Dispensationalism is actually a very popular theology these days and most of it would agree with this focus on the cross, but there are extreme versions of it, which yours seems to be.

Dispensationalism makes a distinction between Old Testament and New Testament religion, as of two different "dispensations" given by God, one extreme of it claiming one form of religion for the Jews and another for believers in Christ. I was arguing earlier that this is a big error. We're ALL saved through Christ's death on the cross, and most of the historical facts of the Old Testament were intended to be types or symbols of this ultimate truth.

(One might ask, Why is its meaning so cloaked in symbolism and obscurity? And the answser is to keep Satan from figuring it out. And it worked. If he'd known that Jesus' death was the way to our salvation he wouldn't have worked to make sure He died, he'd have knocked himself out keeping Him alive (can’t find the reference, drat: ABE: Well I did find it, it's in First Corinthians 2:8 but it's talking about the rulers of this world, rather than specifically Satan, and at least one commentary mentions that there has been a longstanding controversy about whether human or demonic rulers are meant, so I won't get into that here/ABE). But the obscuring also works to keep insincere people from understanding it too, as Blaise Pascal said in his "Pensées" -- how the Bible contains enough light to guide the believer but enough obscurity to mislead the insincere. (Note: I just found this other quote from him I should make part of my signature: "Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid it may be true.")

Anyway, you think we are mixing things together that aren’t supposed to be mixed, and taking on Israel’s role from where Israel left off. But what I’ve been trying to say is that this is a fleshly misunderstanding of what the traditional Church has done. The New Testament itself shows that the Old Testament points to Christ as the fulfillment of all of it, as I’ve tried to show. There is certainly a future role to be played by the Jews, but not as the nation of Israel, and not through the literal terms of their ancient religion, because all that was symbolic of the true salvation which was to come through Christ. But Paul tells us in Romans 9 through 11 that great numbers of Jews will join us eventually. Calvin, one of the leaders of the Protestant Reformation, also says that the Jews will have the preeminence in the Church because they were God’s firstborn. There is a glorious future salvation for the Jews but they are going to have to come through faith in Christ as we all do. There’s ONE gospel and it’s salvation through faith in Christ, who is the Messiah promised by God throughout the Hebrew scriptures, promised to come through the Jews, and who did come through the Jews though most of them rejected Him. When they finally recognize Him it’s going to be a glorious day.

The programs have simply been intertwined in the minds of the religious world.

See above.

Any kind of works at all, even if they appear to be good works in a our minds, that are done for the purpose attaining salvation, or for the purpose of maintaining salvation, and even for the purpose of proving our salvation is a slap in the face of God, who had to provide the gift of salvation, because our righteousness would be totally incapable of meriting it.

Now here you’ve switched topics. I don’t think even the most extreme of the dispensationalists think the Jews are saved by works. NOBODY is saved by works. We are simply incapable of the perfection required by the Law of God, to such an extent that our own best, most righteous, works are said to be “filthy rags” in the eyes of God, and that was said in the Old Testament. The OT also says “We like sheep have gone astray” and shows the people of God committing one sin after another throughout their history, even to the extent of following the heathen religions into sacrificing their own children to a heathen god. The idea that the Jews could be saved by their works with that kind of history is laughable, or really, pitiable. But even the best of humanity can’t be saved by our works anyway. As the NT says, ONE little sin is a violation of the infinite and perfect law of God to the extent that it might as well be a violation of it all. If Christ hadn’t died on the cross absolutely no one could be saved. And that certainly includes the Jews, the ancient Jews and today’s Jews both. They may be living admirable lives in many ways, but it’s all “filthy rags” by God’s standards. They need Christ like all the rest of us need Christ.


It was God’s plan to use the faith and its resultant faithfulness of the son of God in the ultimate glorification of human-kind who would take him at his word, the union of believers to Christ is that which allows God to remain just when he credits those with the righteousness of his son. 
Are we to study the Word of God as though it were a hodge-podge assortment of instructions that are all the same for all the people of all the ages? Some people study it that way, and then wonder why they can not make sense of it. 


Oh dear. No, we don’t study it as a hodge-podge, as I think I've shown to some extent we study it as the unit it was intended to be, through understanding that the Old Testament was given to foreshadow salvation through faith in Christ. The hodge-podge happens with the dispensationalists who make the OT into one religion and the NT into a completely different religion. We're ALL to be saved through faith in Christ and union in Christ, and that's how all the Old Testament saints were saved too. As I already tried to show.

Cafeteria Christianity, each group placing on their plate the portion, or portions of Scripture that appeal most to them. “We want this, but we will ignore that.” “We will take one of these, but we will leave the others off our plate.” But we can not pick and choose whatever doctrine suits our appetites, as though it is left up to us to sere ourselves.

This certainly happens a lot these days as there seem to be an awful lot of Lone Ranger theologians who make it all up to suit themselves (and I sometimes think they've all decided to descend on EvC), and you certainly seem to me to be one of then; but this isn't the case with the traditional Reformation Christianity I try to follow, which has a thoroughly unifying theology that very satisfyingly shows the fulfillment of the Old Testament in the New Testament.


We have to allow God to tell us in the Word, the portions of that Word that are specifically written about and directly apply to us. If you read the words “ye men of Israel,” “ye men of Judaea” do not take from the table of that nation and put that instruction on your plate. You are not the nation Israel. You are not under the law, they were. You are under grace!

Well, you are wrong about that. The Church IS the true Israel of God, the heavenly Israel, not to be confused with earthly Israel, which is still the earthly home of the Jews until they come to see and love their Redeemer the Lord Jesus Christ. And though they were given the Law, they couldn't have been saved by it because none of us can be. The Law condemns, that's all it can do because we are fallen, we are sinners, ALL of us. And we're ALL "under the Law," Bob, all human beings in our natural fallen flesh, not just the Jews, we're all condemned by the Law, all under the wrath of God, until we are saved through faith in Christ's death in our place.

Here's what the Reformer Calvin had to say about the future salvation of the Jews:

"I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning, ­When the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also shall return from their defection to the obedience of faith; and thus shall be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both; and yet in such a way that the Jews shall obtain the first place, being as it were the first born in God's family.

I quoted him and Jonathan Edwards on this subject at one of my blogs, HERE.

"Israel," he says here, refers to "all the people of God." Jews AND Gentiles. We are in a dispensation of sorts now, when the Gentiles are still being gathered in to the true Israel of God, but when all Gentiles have been gathered, the Jews will enter in droves, and fill out the "whole Israel of God" as Calvin puts it, and they will come through faith in Christ, whom they will love with a fervor that will probably put ours to shame.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : To add note about whether Satan was fooled by the obscurity of the OT


He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.

2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

Political Correctness is Cultural Marxism


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-06-2016 11:35 AM Bob Bobber has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-12-2016 10:25 AM Faith has responded

    
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 219 of 280 (780178)
03-12-2016 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
03-12-2016 10:00 AM


Re: The Errors of Dispensationalism: Old and New Testaments are One Whole
In order to build my case, what are points of view about this. Thanks

Matt. 27:51, the earthquake that fractured the rock opened a fissure that ran down through 20 foot of solid rock into a cave and cracked the stone lid on top of a black stone volt where the Ark of the Covenant lie hidden inside, pushing the lid aside. John 19:34, the blood that poured from the side of Jesus, ran down through that crevice and dripped onto the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant that was hidden by God and the prophet Jeremiah, right under where they crucified Jesus, 620 years earlier when the Babylonians destroyed Salomon’s temple. 


The Greek word used for “the cross” on which Jesus was put to death is “stauros,” which denotes an upright pale or stake. It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone. There is nothing in the Greek of the New Testament even to imply two pieces of timber. The blood of Jesus would do no good for the Israelites dripping on “stauros,” because the second Adam’s blood was the basis by which Yahweh would now have just cause to remit or to clear the accounts of those with faith in time past, those who had trusted Yahweh’s word to them and who obeyed what Yahweh told them to do. 


According to Israel’s New Covenant, when would Yahweh finish what forgiveness alone would not accomplish where Israel’s sins were concerned? When would the forgiveness come? At what time would Yahweh completely clear the slate for Israel nationally-those believers who had been baptized according to John the Baptizer’s program? The blood of the second Adam would make it possible, but when would that total clearing of the accounts take place for Israel?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 03-12-2016 10:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 03-12-2016 10:49 AM Bob Bobber has responded
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 03-12-2016 1:50 PM Bob Bobber has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12933
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 220 of 280 (780179)
03-12-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Bob Bobber
03-11-2016 12:27 PM


Re: When the earth was in the first heaven
Bob Bobber writes:

But can anyone establish truth, besides your truth?


That's my question. You're the one who seems to be advocating The Truth.

I accept the stories in the Bible as stories. There are some valuable truths in them and there's some insight into how people thought in different cultures at different times. But I don't think there's much historical "truth" in the Bible. Certainly there is nothing like a historical flood in Genesis 1:1.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-11-2016 12:27 PM Bob Bobber has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-12-2016 11:01 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12933
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 221 of 280 (780180)
03-12-2016 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Bob Bobber
03-12-2016 10:25 AM


Re: The Errors of Dispensationalism: Old and New Testaments are One Whole
Bob Bobber writes:

Matt. 27:51, the earthquake that fractured the rock opened a fissure that ran down through 20 foot of solid rock into a cave and cracked the stone lid on top of a black stone volt where the Ark of the Covenant lie hidden inside, pushing the lid aside. John 19:34, the blood that poured from the side of Jesus, ran down through that crevice and dripped onto the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant that was hidden by God and the prophet Jeremiah, right under where they crucified Jesus, 620 years earlier when the Babylonians destroyed Salomon’s temple.


Made-up nonsense. Those citations say nothing like that.

Edited by ringo, : spelling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-12-2016 10:25 AM Bob Bobber has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-12-2016 11:02 AM ringo has responded

  
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 222 of 280 (780183)
03-12-2016 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
03-11-2016 2:08 PM


Re: When the earth was in the first heaven
So Yahweh finishes all his works and takes his rest. So Yahweh is taking it easy as he watches Adam and Eve having a good timing. In their childlike innocence they were just working the garden, growing food to eat, learning about each other. Then one day they find themselves in the middle of the garden, we know the story of what happened.

This tree thing, did it end Yahweh’s rest?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 03-11-2016 2:08 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by jar, posted 03-12-2016 11:03 AM Bob Bobber has responded

    
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 223 of 280 (780184)
03-12-2016 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by ringo
03-12-2016 10:45 AM


The Stars
Creation versus Evolution, I get it now. Maybe we should go to the stars.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by ringo, posted 03-12-2016 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by ringo, posted 03-12-2016 11:03 AM Bob Bobber has not yet responded
 Message 228 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-12-2016 11:08 AM Bob Bobber has not yet responded

    
Bob Bobber
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 187
Joined: 12-30-2015


Message 224 of 280 (780185)
03-12-2016 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by ringo
03-12-2016 10:49 AM


Re: The Errors of Dispensationalism: Old and New Testaments are One Whole
Prove it didn't happen?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 03-12-2016 10:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 03-12-2016 11:05 AM Bob Bobber has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12933
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 225 of 280 (780186)
03-12-2016 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Bob Bobber
03-12-2016 11:01 AM


Re: The Stars
Bob Bobber writes:

Maybe we should go to the stars.


You're dodging. That's not a good sign that you have a strong case.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Bob Bobber, posted 03-12-2016 11:01 AM Bob Bobber has not yet responded

  
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