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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
jar
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 331 of 536 (792098)
10-03-2016 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Tangle
10-03-2016 11:49 AM


Re: repeating old material
Tangle writes:

Before I asked you the question I read all your previous posts and I'm still puzzled about what exactly you believe. It's simple enough, did Jesus die, resurrect and ascend into heaven?

I don't know. I believe Jesus lived, died was resurrected (he had nothing to do with that) and ascended into heaven and that he will judge us all when we die.

Tangle writes:

I'm just reading what is written. It also complies with what I was taught. It's pretty standard stuff.

I don't doubt that is what you were taught but it seems most people are never really taught much about Christianity.

I try to help expand their knowledge in that area.

Tangle writes:

Of course you can. You can support any view you like with interpretation and context and this text and that text. My point.

Again, I have always said that. I have constantly pointed out that all of the various religious "scripture" contain contradictions, factual errors and reflect the bias and purposes of the authors, editors, redactors and Committees of Canon.

Religions, including Christianity, are a human construct.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 11:49 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 3:22 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 332 of 536 (792099)
10-03-2016 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Phat
10-03-2016 11:10 AM


what is important?
Phat writes:

To say that the Creed is irrelevant is not a good decision, in my mind. Do you believe that the Creed is irrelevant in comparison to our decisions?

None of that even makes any sense.

The Nicene Creed is simply one of many, many Christian Statements of belief and has no relevance outside those Chapters of Club Christian that subscribe to that Statement of faith.

Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that perhaps the only thing relevant on a daily basis is Who He is, who We are, and our response to this truth?

God, I certainly hope not.

Again, that just has no meaning whatsoever.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Phat, posted 10-03-2016 11:10 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29820
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 333 of 536 (792100)
10-03-2016 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by New Cat's Eye
10-03-2016 11:52 AM


Re: repeating old material
Cat Sci writes:

1. one - one body and one spirit
2. holy - on purpose from God
3. catholic - universal and complete
4. apostolic - originated from Jesus' apostles

And for most of the history all four of those characteristics were not in evidence. First there was the Holy Roman Empire that was neither Holy or Roman and one body and one spirit as long as Charlemagne was alive but then various Italian bodies and spirits until Otto was crowned.

By 1054 the first of the Great Schisms led to the creation of the Roman Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church with all ties between the two severed.

Then there was the Avignon Papacies when the Throne of Peter and papacy were in Avignon instead of Rome. That lasted for seven popes IIRC.

Then there was the Western Schism when the College of Cardinals elected multiple simultaneous Popes with three different men all claiming to be the legitimate pope.

And then came the Reformation and Henry.

And onward and upward to the thousands of bodies today.

In fact today the vast majority of Christian sects are not Apostolic but rather claim the legitimacy of being "called".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-03-2016 11:52 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-03-2016 2:47 PM jar has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 334 of 536 (792102)
10-03-2016 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by jar
10-03-2016 8:24 AM


Re: on Jesus
GDR writes:

If Jesus is simply a man, (as I recall you saying), who lived and died like anyone else never to be seen again, then the Gospel stories aren't good news only good advice. On top of that, as I have said before, it shows Jesus as being delusional, with the idea that He could replace the Temple by forgiving sins, and saying essentially that He was embodying Yahweh's return to His people. Christianity is the belief that Jesus got it right and this belief is vindicated by God with the resurrection.

jar writes:

Again, you still are misrepresenting my position. Let me try again.
What I have said is that Jesus while living here on the earth among us was fully human. Not part human/part god but purely and totally and only human.
What I have said is that I see no real sacrifice if it is a God dying, a God being resurrected, a God ascending but the idea of a God becoming simply, fully, completely human, being born as a human child unable to focus his eyes, to feed himself, to control his bowels to even turn over by himself; becoming simply, fully, completely human with no knowledge, having to learn how to think, how to speak, how to get along with others, how to earn a living, how to put on clothes; becoming simply, fully, completely human suffering from bugs, fleas, rash, pain, hunger, doubt, fear, confusion; becoming simply, fully, completely human being whipped, sentenced to die, nailed to a cross with no assurance of resurrection other than human faith; that is a real sacrifice.


I’m pretty much with you here except that while I agree that He was fully human He was unique.
jar writes:

What Jesus was before his birth or after the resurrection is a different issue. I believe that Jesus was God before his birth and after the resurrection but again, I really don't think that is an important part of the narrative.

I believe it is crucial to the narrative and it also depends on what you mean by Jesus being God which brings up the whole idea of the trinity.
jar writes:

It is Jesus life that tells us how to behave.
It is Jesus the simply, fully, completely human man that is resurrected that tells humans there can be life after death.


I wouldn’t quite see it as Jesus telling us how to behave but as telling us and showing us where are hearts should be and assuring us that we have the Holy Spirit to be with us in that journey. (That may be nit picking.)

I agree that the resurrection is evidence of what is in store for creation, but I suggest that it is more than that. Death is the ultimate power that evil holds over us. The Romans used the power of evil to maintain their power. The ultimate threat was crucifixion. The resurrection shows that evil does not have the final word.

I’ll say how I see it and we’ll see where we agree or disagree.

I think it is important that we see Jesus as fully man or we do lose sight of the sacrifice and understanding that we have of the nature of God. I also see Him as being fully God but I think that to understand that we have to go to the first chapter of the Gospel of John.

quote:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

So here we have Jesus who was fully man yet who embodied the “Word” of God that existed before the dawn of time. The Israelites had for generations anticipated the return of Yahweh to them, and many of them also had anticipated a human messiah that would somehow save them from the yoke of tyranny of a series of brutal oppressors who at that time were the Romans.

Jesus understood His God given vocation to be the one through whom God would fulfill these two strands of Jewish prophesy. I contend that He came to this understanding of His vocation through the study of the Hebrew Scriptures, through prayer and through His understanding and observations of human nature.

I also believe that He came to a belief, not knowledge, that somehow God would see Him through death and out the other side. He often referred to Himself as the “Son of Man” which is an obvious reference to Daniel 7 where the one like a “Son of Man” is presented to the “Ancient of Days” and given dominion over the “Kingdom of God”, (or as Matthew has it the “Kingdom of Heaven”), which was for both now but also for eternity.

I contend that it is clear that Jesus did not have supernatural knowledge of the resurrection. If He had, then the prayer in Gethsemane where He prays that He not have to go into Jerusalem and do what He was going to do doesn’t make sense. He knew what the punishment was for someone who upset the powers that be with such actions. He was upsetting everyone from the Romans, the Pharisees, the zealots and everybody but the lower classes. It is so telling how God always seems to work through the powerless. He chose a lowly Middle Eastern tribe and then he chose a poor bastard child to reveal Himself to the nations.

If the resurrection didn’t happen, then Jesus got it all wrong, and if He got that wrong it does make Him delusional as I said. If however, as I personally am convinced, that Jesus was bodily resurrected, then we can know that Jesus did represent the true nature of God, we can know that ultimately good does fully defeat evil, we can know that this world is not going to end in some cataclysmic way but will be renewed and we can know that what we do to love and look after our nieghbours, our enemies and our world matters eternally.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 8:24 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 335 of 536 (792103)
10-03-2016 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by jar
10-03-2016 12:58 PM


Re: repeating old material
And for most of the history all four of those characteristics were not in evidence. First there was the Holy Roman Empire that was neither Holy or Roman and one body and one spirit as long as Charlemagne was alive but then various Italian bodies and spirits until Otto was crowned.

By 1054 the first of the Great Schisms led to the creation of the Roman Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church with all ties between the two severed.

Then there was the Avignon Papacies when the Throne of Peter and papacy were in Avignon instead of Rome. That lasted for seven popes IIRC.

Then there was the Western Schism when the College of Cardinals elected multiple simultaneous Popes with three different men all claiming to be the legitimate pope.

And then came the Reformation and Henry.

And onward and upward to the thousands of bodies today.

As I understand it, the belief statement in the creed is claiming that all of that falls under one umbrella of "The Christian ChurchTM", or something like that.

In fact today the vast majority of Christian sects are not Apostolic but rather claim the legitimacy of being "called".

I still laugh at one protestant in particular responding to me pointing out that Jesus said that Peter would be the rock of his church, and that the church today descends from that through apostolic succession, with claiming that the Bible was really talking about Peter's faith as being the rock of the church and the apostolic succession had nothing to do with being a true christian today.

I don't remember exactly, but that's where I bowed out. Seems anything can be spun to fit that narrative.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 12:58 PM jar has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 336 of 536 (792104)
10-03-2016 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Tangle
10-02-2016 4:42 AM


Re: repeating old material
Tangle writes:

You can be forgiven for beliving in "a" god - at least until we know more about how our universe works - but you also believe in the rediculous idea of religion.

I suggest that the more we learn about how the universe works the more we see the likelihood of an intelligent root cause.
Tangle writes:

You believe in an interventionist god that requires worship

Worship is not about feeding the divine ego but about my understanding that it isn’t all about me, and better equipping me to, (as per my signature), humbly love justice and kindness.
Tangle writes:

and condemns all other belief systems and their believers.

It doesn’t condemn other belief systems, it condemns hatred, injustice, cruelty etc.
Tangle writes:

You believe in heaven and, I suppose, hell and all the daft human invented biblical trappings.

It is about the resurrection of all things with the ability to reject love of self at the expense of others and embracing love of God’s creatures and creation.
Tangle writes:

You could only believe those things by being born where you were born at the time you were born there. (A few hundred years earlier you would have believed in ancestor worship.)

That is obviously only partially true. There are those born in Christian families and cultures who reject Christianity and some born in non-Christian families and cultures who embrace the Christian faith.
Tangle writes:

But the issue is that you believe something different to Jar and something different to Faith and something different GDR. All the same damn religion. All supposedly the revealed truth. Well if that not proof that people make up their beliefs I don't know what is.


Yes there is ambiguity about the religion. The fundamental message though on which we agree is that God is a god of love and that He wants us to reflect that love into His creation. Christianity is man’s effort to work out where God fits into this world and neither Phat, Jar, Faith nor even I have it all worked out perfectly.
As I see it Christianity centres on the resurrection of Jesus which affirms His life and message to give us an understanding of God’s nature and His ultimate plan for this world. It is painted in broad brush strokes without definitive knowledge in spite of what fundamentalists will say.
As I’ve said elsewhere the Bible tells the story of the progressive revelation of God and that still holds true today.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Tangle, posted 10-02-2016 4:42 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 337 of 536 (792105)
10-03-2016 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by jar
10-02-2016 8:55 AM


Re: repeating old material
jar writes:

I do believe that there is a GOD and I do believe that we all will be judged based on our behavior, not our beliefs or acclamations.

I just wanted to respond to this. I just don't see it as judgment based on what we do. I was raised in a loving home which gave me a sense of self worth. Should I be judged according to what I do in comparison to someone who was raised in an abusive non-loving environment or maybe even in an environment where I am encouraged to blow myself up in order to kill others.
I suggest that in this life we are called to embrace a trajectory that moves us towards hearts that love others sacrificially and away from self love at the expense of others. The things that we do are derived from what and who we love.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by jar, posted 10-02-2016 8:55 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 4:28 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 338 of 536 (792106)
10-03-2016 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by jar
10-03-2016 12:30 PM


Re: repeating old material
Jar writes:

I don't doubt that is what you were taught but it seems most people are never really taught much about Christianity.

I think a lot of people are taught rather too much about Christianity.

I try to help expand their knowledge in that area.

No doubt you think your knowledge is somehow better than others - and no doubt it often is - but I imagine they think the same. It strikes me as being a lot like driving, everybody says they're better than average. And in any case you can simply make it up if you're stuck.

Nevertheless, I think we're on the same page. You think it may be all made up but believe it anyway, I know it's all made up and don't believe a syllable of it. We both probably lead decent lives, so we're both saved. Thank god.

Pffnnrrr.......


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 12:30 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 339 of 536 (792108)
10-03-2016 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by GDR
10-03-2016 3:03 PM


Re: repeating old material
GDR writes:

I suggest that in this life we are called to embrace a trajectory that moves us towards hearts that love others sacrificially and away from self love at the expense of others. The things that we do are derived from what and who we love.

I was going to reply to your last post to me but this sort of sums it up.

It's all pure wishful thinking isn't it? You believe what you want to be true, then find the mechanisms in the religion you're born into to give it credence, add a dash of liberal idealism commensurate with the stage of development of our society and, shezam! everyone gets to go to Christian heaven.

Lovely.

Sadly it's all garbage as far as Christianity goes, you've polluted it with modernity. What you're talking about is humanism+ or religion-


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by GDR, posted 10-03-2016 3:03 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by GDR, posted 10-03-2016 5:06 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 340 of 536 (792109)
10-03-2016 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by Tangle
10-03-2016 4:28 PM


Re: repeating old material
Tangle writes:

It's all pure wishful thinking isn't it? You believe what you want to be true, then find the mechanisms in the religion you're born into to give it credence, add a dash of liberal idealism commensurate with the stage of development of our society and, shezam! everyone gets to go to Christian heaven.


First off things aren’t exactly as I would like them to be. Basically I would have preferred the idea that I would be king and you minions would be groveling at my feet, but actually I came to believe that isn’t the way the world is supposed to work.

As I have said before the Christian faith all boils down to the resurrection. If God resurrected Jesus then everything changes. If God did not resurrect Jesus then you are essentially correct about the Christian faith.

Actually I contend that what I believe about the Christian faith is based more on what was believed by the first writers of the Gospels and epistles and reject a lot that came later in the reformation. I believe that the historical context that the NT was written in is fundamental to understanding what the writers had to say and why they said it.

Incidentally, I don’t see it as being about getting to heaven as such anyway but ultimately about the renewal of all things including our world.

Tangle writes:

Sadly it's all garbage as far as Christianity goes, you've polluted it with modernity. What you're talking about is humanism+ or religion-

Christianity does encompass humanism though. Jesus’ message of love your neighbor etc can be considered humanism. However that is just one side of Christianity. As I said to jar, the other side is the Christian narrative of what God is doing in and for this world, and what the final plan is in broad brush strokes, but not in detail.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 4:28 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 5:40 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 341 of 536 (792110)
10-03-2016 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by GDR
10-03-2016 5:06 PM


Re: repeating old material
GDR writes:

First off things aren’t exactly as I would like them to be. Basically I would have preferred the idea that I would be king and you minions would be groveling at my feet,

I know this is supposed to be tongue in cheek, but you don't believe this at all do you? You believe in a fair and open society where we are governed by decent people along principles derived from the 'golden rule'. N'est pas?

As I have said before the Christian faith all boils down to the resurrection. If God resurrected Jesus then everything changes. If God did not resurrect Jesus then you are essentially correct about the Christian faith.

An objective view - rather than a religious view - would make the resurrecting of Jesus no more impressive than the resurrecting of Lazarus. The obsession with Jewish prophecy is pure superstition and dogma.

Actually I contend that what I believe about the Christian faith is based more on what was believed by the first writers of the Gospels and epistles and reject a lot that came later in the reformation. I believe that the historical context that the NT was written in is fundamental to understanding what the writers had to say and why they said it.

What you believe is only possible in our Western, modern, democratic, liberal society. At almost any other time in Christian history you would have been burnt for heresey. You beliefs are a product of the society you now live in, nothing more.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by GDR, posted 10-03-2016 5:06 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-03-2016 6:24 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 343 by GDR, posted 10-03-2016 7:30 PM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 342 of 536 (792111)
10-03-2016 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Tangle
10-03-2016 5:40 PM


Re: repeating old material
An objective view - rather than a religious view - would make the resurrecting of Jesus no more impressive than the resurrecting of Lazarus.

Given what's in the story, objectively:

Lazarus didn't predict his own resurrection.
Jesus predicted Lazarus's resurrection.
Jesus predicted his own resurrection.

∴ Jesus' resurrection was more impressive than Lazarus's.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 5:40 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 343 of 536 (792112)
10-03-2016 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Tangle
10-03-2016 5:40 PM


Re: repeating old material
Tangle writes:

I know this is supposed to be tongue in cheek, but you don't believe this at all do you? You believe in a fair and open society where we are governed by decent people along principles derived from the 'golden rule'. N'est pas?

Well ya. However, I don't really know what I would think if it wasn't for the influence of God in all of our lives. I do know that my Christian faith has caused me to change my views on a number of things.

Tangle writes:

An objective view - rather than a religious view - would make the resurrecting of Jesus no more impressive than the resurrecting of Lazarus. The obsession with Jewish prophecy is pure superstition and dogma.

First off resurrection was not a term that people would use for what happened to Lazarus. That was a case of bringing him back to life as we know it. He eventually did die. Resurrection was about Jesus passing through death and coming out the other side in a new and eternal physicality that seemed to be able to pass between God's dimension and our own.

As far as Jewish prophesy goes I don't see it necessarily as someone who supernaturally foretold the future. My own thinking is that they were views held by the early Jews that God was going to do something special for them that would give them what they wanted, which was that they would be the powerful nation and dominate their neighbours.

God seems primarily to work through people, and seems to have worked through the man Jesus to redefine and fulfill these prophesies, in reaction to what they hoped for, as I have talked about numerous times in other threads.

GDR writes:

Actually I contend that what I believe about the Christian faith is based more on what was believed by the first writers of the Gospels and epistles and reject a lot that came later in the reformation. I believe that the historical context that the NT was written in is fundamental to understanding what the writers had to say and why they said it.

Tangle writes:

What you believe is only possible in our Western, modern, democratic, liberal society. At almost any other time in Christian history you would have been burnt for heresey. You beliefs are a product of the society you now live in, nothing more.

I don't buy that. There have been rare occasions where people have been burned for heresy but I don't see my views as being outside the norm. NT Wright is called by Newsweek as the world's leading New Testament scholar and my views have been influenced by him and are consistent with his in the vast majority of cases.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 5:40 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Tangle, posted 10-04-2016 2:48 AM GDR has responded
 Message 349 by NoNukes, posted 10-05-2016 4:26 AM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5264
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 344 of 536 (792115)
10-04-2016 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by GDR
10-03-2016 7:30 PM


Re: repeating old material
GDR writes:

I don't really know what I would think if it wasn't for the influence of God in all of our lives. I do know that my Christian faith has caused me to change my views on a number of things.

I've had discussions were people have claimed that without god we'd all be rapists and mass murderers. It's obvious twaddle. You'd behave perfectly normally - you're influenced by the values of your immediate society and upbringing, not some invisible directing influence up in the clouds.

I don't see my views as being outside the norm. NT Wright is called by Newsweek as the world's leading New Testament scholar and my views have been influenced by him and are consistent with his in the vast majority of cases.

Your beliefs are perfectly normal for a modern, Western democratic country. Outside the USA every Christian I know has the liberal views that you do - though much less obsessed. (The vast majority don't even think about their beliefs outside one hour on a Sunday.)

My point is that the positions you take on your religion is a product of the society and time you live in - you could and would not have held them any other time since the crucifixion.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by GDR, posted 10-03-2016 7:30 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by GDR, posted 10-04-2016 10:16 AM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 345 of 536 (792122)
10-04-2016 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Tangle
10-04-2016 2:48 AM


Re: repeating old material
Tangle writes:

My point is that the positions you take on your religion is a product of the society and time you live in - you could and would not have held them any other time since the crucifixion.


To some degree you are correct. Religions are not from God as such. The Bible is, as I have said, a progressive revelation of God working with the human race over time. Religions are man's attempt to understand what it is that a divine being or beings has done, is doing, well do, and how this should influence our lives.

Most world religions were about, and to a lessor degree still are about trying to get their deities to do what it is that they want them to do. In the OT though although that view is prominent there are threads within that narrative of things like love your neighbour and even your enemy. In the climax of the Biblical narrative we find Jesus pulling those threads together and saying that all the law and the prophets are brought together in the love of others.

It is a good thing to take that message on board, but there is no need to build a specific religion around the life and message of Jesus Christ except that God resurrected Jesus. So yes, religions are man made from man's attempt to understand and deal with a divine entity but with Christianity it is a case of God reaching down to us as opposed to us reaching up to God. Also the message became, (although often abused), not about how we can control God but about giving our hearts over to God and serving Him, by loving and serving His creation.

I contend that my beliefs were held essentially as is by the writers of the Gospels and Epistles, although as I believe it is a progressive revelation, some beliefs have changed over time.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Tangle, posted 10-04-2016 2:48 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by Tangle, posted 10-04-2016 12:52 PM GDR has responded

    
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