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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4890
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 346 of 474 (792124)
10-04-2016 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by GDR
10-04-2016 10:16 AM


Re: repeating old material
GDR writes:

To some degree you are correct. Religions are not from God as such. The Bible is, as I have said, a progressive revelation of God working with the human race over time. Religions are man's attempt to understand what it is that a divine being or beings has done, is doing, well do, and how this should influence our lives.

[......]

I contend that my beliefs were held essentially as is by the writers of the Gospels and Epistles, although as I believe it is a progressive revelation, some beliefs have changed over time.

You're simply conflating the absolutely normal civilising processes of human development with a totally unnecessary and unevidenced assertion that these societal changes are god's progressive revelation.

The New Testament climaxed with the death of Christ and the forecast of his IMMINENT return to fulfil prophecy. None of that happened. You're clinging on to a 2,000 year old proven mythology.

Our development is the result of our own efforts, there's not even a hint of divine intervention - in fact the opposite, had this god of yours wished us to behave better towards each other he would not have set the system in place the way it is.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by GDR, posted 10-04-2016 10:16 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by GDR, posted 10-04-2016 2:27 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 10-05-2016 10:25 AM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4241
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 347 of 474 (792125)
10-04-2016 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Tangle
10-04-2016 12:52 PM


Re: repeating old material
Tangle writes:

The New Testament climaxed with the death of Christ and the forecast of his IMMINENT return to fulfil prophecy. None of that happened. You're clinging on to a 2,000 year old proven mythology.

Most of what are usually considered to be prophesies about end times were actually political messages to the zealots and others who wanted to raise a military force to get rid of the Romans. Jesus was talking about what would happen within a generation if they didn't cool their heals. This actually did happen in 70 AD but I contend that was simply Jesus' understanding of His world at that time and wasn't based on supernatural knowledge.

There was also mention of Jesus returning at the end of time and then just like today some people figured it would happen in their life time. That's pretty much human nature. The message is that whenever time as we know it ends Jesus will be there with us.

Tangle writes:

Our development is the result of our own efforts, there's not even a hint of divine intervention - in fact the opposite, had this god of yours wished us to behave better towards each other he would not have set the system in place the way it is.

We are simply going to disagree about that. Things are the way they are and we have now way of having certainty or not about divine intervention.

If God were just to make the world that way out the outset then we would have been simply puppets without the will to make moral choices.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Tangle, posted 10-04-2016 12:52 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Tangle, posted 10-04-2016 2:54 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4890
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 348 of 474 (792126)
10-04-2016 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by GDR
10-04-2016 2:27 PM


Re: repeating old material
GDR writes:

This actually did happen in 70 AD but I contend that was simply Jesus' understanding of His world at that time and wasn't based on supernatural knowledge.

Of course you do; you want it everyway, when he's wrong he's human, when he's right he's godly.

If God were just to make the world that way out the outset then we would have been simply puppets without the will to make moral choices.

That's flat-out wrong.

What is the purpose of creating 10% of the human race with inbuilt psychopathy incapable of empathy? Why make life compete for resource? Why make a food chain with the necessity for carnivores to kill to survive? This has absolutely nothing to do with puppetry or moral choice. The system is set-up to be what it is, a primitive and vicious survival system that our societies are only just learning how to overcome.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by GDR, posted 10-04-2016 2:27 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by GDR, posted 10-05-2016 4:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9736
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 349 of 474 (792132)
10-05-2016 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by GDR
10-03-2016 7:30 PM


Re: repeating old material
First off resurrection was not a term that people would use for what happened to Lazarus.

Which people refuse to call what happened to Lazarus a resurrection?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by GDR, posted 10-03-2016 7:30 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by GDR, posted 10-06-2016 10:57 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 350 of 474 (792138)
10-05-2016 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by Tangle
10-04-2016 12:52 PM


Responsibility
Tangle writes:

The New Testament climaxed with the death of Christ and the forecast of his IMMINENT return to fulfill prophecy. None of that happened. You're clinging on to a 2,000 year old proven mythology.

Not true. The New Testament climaxed with the resurrection...which spread through the people as a progressive revelation of new hope. In a sense Jesus has already returned..in His Body which is we ourselves.

Our development is the result of our own efforts, there's not even a hint of divine intervention - in fact the opposite, had this god of yours wished us to behave better towards each other he would not have set the system in place the way it is.

How can you not believe in God on the one hand and then use the system the way it is to prove that He would not have done it this way had He existed?

One side maintains that we are powerless without Him and need Him.

The other side maintains that we are responsible for every success and/or failure that we cause.

In my mind, our responsibility is His responsibility. In Him we breathe and move and have our being.

GDR writes:

The Bible is, as I have said, a progressive revelation of God working with the human race over time.

But even if there were no way to prove the Bible or God, Tangle would be responsible for every success and/or failure, as would you as would I.

The difference is that we believe God does it through us whereas Tangle believes its all a bunch of bollocks and we do it on our own!

Edited by Phat, : fixed spelling


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Tangle, posted 10-04-2016 12:52 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Tangle, posted 10-05-2016 10:41 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4890
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 351 of 474 (792140)
10-05-2016 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 350 by Phat
10-05-2016 10:25 AM


Re: Responsibility
Phat writes:

The New Testament climaxed with the resurrection...which spread through the people as a progressive revelation of new hope. In a sense Jesus has already returned..in His Body which is we ourselves.

This is another example of meaningless religiosity, Phat. Just a jumble of relious sounding words which avoid the substantive point which was that Jesus did NOT return as he was expected to do and as he said he would.

How can you not believe in God on the one hand and then use the system the way it is to prove that He would not have done it this way had He existed?

It's called debate. I'm taking the other sides argument - that god made us - and showing that if he did then he set it up so that we would be competitive, survival dependent preditors with a percentage of pychopaths and sociopaths to make it just a bit more unstable. That is not the act of a god you believe in is it? And yet that's the world you say he created.

In my mind, our responsibility is His responsibility. In Him we breathe and move and have our being.

More religiosity. This stuff sounds great in church doesn't it? To me it's meaningless made up junk.

The difference is that we believe God does it through us whereas Tangle believes its all a bunch of bollocks and we do it on our own!

Did god type this or did I?
(Serious question, when is god doing things through you and when isn't he? Why is this not just the puppetry GDR rejects?)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 10-05-2016 10:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Phat, posted 10-05-2016 10:45 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 352 of 474 (792141)
10-05-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Tangle
10-05-2016 10:41 AM


Re: Responsibility
That is not the act of a god you believe in is it?
Actually I believe it is.

Humans have the choice between following instinct or following conscience.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Tangle, posted 10-05-2016 10:41 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Tangle, posted 10-05-2016 10:55 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4890
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 353 of 474 (792142)
10-05-2016 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by Phat
10-05-2016 10:45 AM


Re: Responsibility
Phat writes:

Actually I believe iot is.
Humans have the choice between following instinct or following conscience.

You think it right for god to create carnivores and the kill and be killed, survival of the fittest ecology that created us? You have a weird view of a loving god.

Humans do NOT have a choice between conscience and instinct. The vast majority of our processes are unconscious. We need both sets of functions to get through our day and our reactions to different situations depend on a multitude of factors. If we talk of pychopaths, they are programmed to react in a totally different way than you. They follow their 'conscience' in a way the rest of us dislike intensely. Why did your god create psychopaths?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Phat, posted 10-05-2016 10:45 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 10-05-2016 11:11 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9500
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 354 of 474 (792143)
10-05-2016 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by Tangle
10-05-2016 10:55 AM


Re: Responsibility
If we talk of pychopaths, they are programmed to react in a totally different way than you. They follow their 'conscience' in a way the rest of us dislike intensely. Why did your god create psychopaths?
Does this relate to the broader philosophical questions such as
  • If God exists, why did He create evil?

    I believe that God allowed the possibility of evil---only to allow free will. Lucifer actualized evil by choosing it.

    As for humans, we are aware of both extremes. We are aware of when we do evil and when we choose good.

    Psychopaths, on the other hand have no conscience by nature the way that normal humans do.

    Thus you raise a good question. Why would God allow such a mutation to exist?

    Is there any evidence that humans grow stronger through facing adversity in life?

    Is the entire concept of satan not the story of how humanity gets stronger by resisting? (Weight lifting involves muscles growing through applied resistance)

    Is satan a necessary "mutation" in human development?

    Or...again..is it all a bunch of bollocks?

    All we know is that psychopaths exist.

    It is up to us to decide how to handle this reality.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 353 by Tangle, posted 10-05-2016 10:55 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 355 by Tangle, posted 10-05-2016 11:36 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
  • Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4890
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.7


    Message 355 of 474 (792144)
    10-05-2016 11:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 354 by Phat
    10-05-2016 11:11 AM


    Re: Responsibility
    Phat writes:

    Does this relate to the broader philosophical questions such as
    If God exists, why did He create evil?

    No. Evil is yet another silly religious concept that we've got used to hearing. I,m asking specific questions of about real things.

    Why create pychopaths?
    Why create carnivores? (Think about that Phat).
    Why create a biological ecosystem that ensures that humans will evolve with survival, kill or be killed, predatory instincts?
    Why create agression making hormones like testosterone?

    None of these things would create moral (ie freewill) problems if they didn't exist and all could be substited with friendlier alternatives. Your god created a hostile environment for almost all living organisms to merely survive in. This is not the act of a loving god.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 354 by Phat, posted 10-05-2016 11:11 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4241
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005


    Message 356 of 474 (792146)
    10-05-2016 4:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 348 by Tangle
    10-04-2016 2:54 PM


    God and suffering
    GDR writes:

    This actually did happen in 70 AD but I contend that was simply Jesus' understanding of His world at that time and wasn't based on supernatural knowledge.

    Tangle writes:

    Of course you do; you want it everyway, when he's wrong he's human, when he's right he's godly.


    I don’t necessarily attribute supernatural knowledge to Jesus. As I said earlier the prayer in Gethsemane doesn’t make sense if Jesus had absolute knowledge of what would happen to Him post resurrection. It appears as if He believed that God would somehow affirm and vindicate Him but it seems by the Gospel account that He went into Jerusalem knowing what the punishment would be for what He was going to do, as a great act of faith.
    I see Him as God because He perfectly embodied the eternal “Word” and nature of God. Jesus embodied Yahweh’s return to the Jews and God vindicated and affirmed Jesus by resurrecting Him and making Him Lord.
    Tangle writes:

    What is the purpose of creating 10% of the human race with inbuilt psychopathy incapable of empathy? Why make life compete for resource? Why make a food chain with the necessity for carnivores to kill to survive? This has absolutely nothing to do with puppetry or moral choice. The system is set-up to be what it is, a primitive and vicious survival system that our societies are only just learning how to overcome.


    I don’t know why things are the way they are. We live in a world with time flowing in one direction and subject to entropy. Maybe it is the only way it can be, but we as humans have the God given capability to mitigate much of the suffering. It is interesting to note that it is the countries with a Judeo Christian heritage that are the forerunners in that mission, both in our own countries and in other parts of the world.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 348 by Tangle, posted 10-04-2016 2:54 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 357 by Tangle, posted 10-05-2016 5:16 PM GDR has responded

        
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4890
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.7


    (1)
    Message 357 of 474 (792149)
    10-05-2016 5:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 356 by GDR
    10-05-2016 4:34 PM


    Re: God and suffering
    GDR writes:

    I don’t necessarily attribute supernatural knowledge to Jesus.

    Yes, so much is obvious. He's only a god when it's convenient for him to be a god.

    I don’t know why things are the way they are. We live in a world with time flowing in one direction and subject to entropy. Maybe it is the only way it can be, but we as humans have the God given capability to mitigate much of the suffering.

    This is just rubbish and you know it. This isn't the 'problem of suffering' it's simple, basic biology. The world is set up this way. It makes total sense to science and no sense at all to religious beliefs. You have no answers but the evidence of it totally contradicts the idea of a loving god.

    It is interesting to note that it is the countries with a Judeo Christian heritage that are the forerunners in that mission, both in our own countries and in other parts of the world.

    What???


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 356 by GDR, posted 10-05-2016 4:34 PM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 359 by GDR, posted 10-06-2016 11:05 AM Tangle has responded

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4241
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005


    Message 358 of 474 (792160)
    10-06-2016 10:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 349 by NoNukes
    10-05-2016 4:26 AM


    Resurrection
    GDR writes:

    First off resurrection was not a term that people would use for what happened to Lazarus.

    NoNukes writes:

    Which people refuse to call what happened to Lazarus a resurrection?


    There was a belief amongst early Jews that there would ultimately be a general resurrection, presumably just for the Jews at the end of time. That follows along to a degree with the story of the dry bones being re-enfleshed in Ezekiel. It was about new life not a continuation of the old which would still ultimately end in death.
    Here is a link to a site where N T Wright talks about resurrection.
    Resurrection of resurrection

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 349 by NoNukes, posted 10-05-2016 4:26 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

        
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4241
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005


    Message 359 of 474 (792161)
    10-06-2016 11:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 357 by Tangle
    10-05-2016 5:16 PM


    Re: God and suffering
    Tangle writes:

    Yes, so much is obvious. He's only a god when it's convenient for him to be a god.

    No, Jesus was a man who experienced life as such. The miracles, as well as the message was God, who Jesus prayed to and called Father acting through Jesus. As I said earlier Jesus embodied the return of Yahweh.

    Tangle writes:

    This is just rubbish and you know it. This isn't the 'problem of suffering' it's simple, basic biology. The world is set up this way. It makes total sense to science and no sense at all to religious beliefs.

    That is what you believe. We just disagree on whether it was "set up" by an intelligent agent or by an endless series mindless processes but we've been down this road before.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 357 by Tangle, posted 10-05-2016 5:16 PM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 360 by Tangle, posted 10-06-2016 12:43 PM GDR has responded

        
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4890
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.7


    (1)
    Message 360 of 474 (792162)
    10-06-2016 12:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 359 by GDR
    10-06-2016 11:05 AM


    Re: God and suffering
    GDR writes:

    No, Jesus was a man who experienced life as such. The miracles, as well as the message was God, who Jesus prayed to and called Father acting through Jesus. As I said earlier Jesus embodied the return of Yahweh.

    He was a man and a god and he sometimes knew the future and sometimes not, depending on whether it's convenient or inconvenient for the story. When he performed miracles it wasn't him it was god etc etc etc. All of this is just a bunch of stories that can be used to rationalise any incident to suit the occasion. With this setup you can make anything up and make it work for you.

    That is what you believe. We just disagree on whether it was "set up" by an intelligent agent or by an endless series mindless processes but we've been down this road before.

    It's nothing to do with what I believe. It's self-evident that life on earth is competetive. All life competes to survive. The food chain requires nature to be 'red in tooth and claw'. We understand all this in considerable detail and you don't deny it.

    The assertion is that if the process was set in place by your god, then your god is a twisted imoral creature. There was no need to do it this way, free will does not rely on the necessity to compete to survive. There is no need to have a life process set up in this cruel way. The question 'why did god made carnivores?' has never been answered.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 359 by GDR, posted 10-06-2016 11:05 AM GDR has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 361 by GDR, posted 10-06-2016 12:57 PM Tangle has responded

      
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