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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
ringo
Member
Posts: 13970
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 466 of 536 (813220)
06-24-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by Phat
06-24-2017 10:53 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Also stay as far from religion as you can. They breed goats.


That's what I'm saying: Don't buy this nonsense that everlasting torment is your own fault.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Phat, posted 06-24-2017 10:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by Phat, posted 07-06-2017 2:03 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29765
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 467 of 536 (813223)
06-24-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by Phat
06-24-2017 10:53 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Also stay as far from religion as you can. They breed goats.

It is not religions that breed Goats but rather the Christian Cult of Ignorance.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Phat, posted 06-24-2017 10:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10231
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 468 of 536 (814324)
07-06-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by ringo
06-24-2017 12:26 PM


Re: God Unplugged
ringo writes:

Don't buy this nonsense that everlasting torment is your own fault.

I suppose you would blame God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by ringo, posted 06-24-2017 12:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by ringo, posted 07-07-2017 11:40 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13970
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 469 of 536 (814348)
07-07-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 468 by Phat
07-06-2017 2:03 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Don't buy this nonsense that everlasting torment is your own fault.


I suppose you would blame God.

Be honest with yourself. If somebody left a loaded gun in a crowded playground and children got hurt, who would you blame?

You'd blame the one who caused the problem, wouldn't you? You'd scoff at the idea that the children "chose" to be harmed, wouldn't you?

So why would you give your "loving", omniscient God a free pass?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by Phat, posted 07-06-2017 2:03 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by Phat, posted 07-07-2017 11:49 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10231
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 470 of 536 (814349)
07-07-2017 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Tangle
10-02-2016 4:42 AM


Re: repeating old material
Tangle writes:

You can be forgiven for believing in "a" god - at least until we know more about how our universe works - but you also believe in the ridiculous idea of religion.

Not totally. I rarely attend church lately.
Tangle writes:

You believe in an interventionist god that requires worship and condemns all other belief systems and their believers.

No. The God I believe in does not require worship. He desires relationship through prayer...largely for our benefit rather than His. No belief system is condemned, but He desires to draw all men unto Himself.
Tangle writes:

You believe in heaven and, I suppose, hell and all the daft human invented biblical trappings.

I focus on the present. I do not merely parrot belief like a sheeple.(Buzzsaws favorite word)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Tangle, posted 10-02-2016 4:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2017 12:16 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10231
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 471 of 536 (814350)
07-07-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by ringo
07-07-2017 11:40 AM


Re: God Unplugged
I see no evidence of guilt. I see no connection with your metaphor. Hell, if hell exists was never created for fallen humanity nor innocent children. You gotta work to get there. Choose your works wisely.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by ringo, posted 07-07-2017 11:40 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by ringo, posted 07-07-2017 11:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13970
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 472 of 536 (814351)
07-07-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 471 by Phat
07-07-2017 11:49 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Hell, if hell exists was never created for fallen humanity nor innocent children. You gotta work to get there.


The "fall" itself is evidence of guilt. God doomed every subsequent generation of humans to atone for Adam and Eve's "sin".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by Phat, posted 07-07-2017 11:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by NoNukes, posted 07-08-2017 8:08 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5237
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 473 of 536 (814353)
07-07-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Phat
07-07-2017 11:47 AM


Re: repeating old material
Phat writes:

Not totally. I rarely attend church lately.

Totally. Your religion is Christianity, you pray to a Christian god.

The God I believe in does not require worship. He desires relationship through prayer...largely for our benefit rather than His. No belief system is condemned, but He desires to draw all men unto Himself.

This is the trouble arguing with you believers - you all believe something different even within the same belief. It's almost as if you're cherry picking what suits you.....

I focus on the present. I do not merely parrot belief like a sheeple

You're telling me that you don't believe in heaven and hell?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 07-07-2017 11:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 7:29 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10119
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 474 of 536 (814382)
07-08-2017 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by ringo
07-07-2017 11:55 AM


Re: God Unplugged
God doomed every subsequent generation of humans to atone for Adam and Eve's "sin".

Humans and every other animal too if you let some people tell it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by ringo, posted 07-07-2017 11:55 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by Pressie, posted 10-13-2017 6:54 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10231
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 475 of 536 (821816)
10-13-2017 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
03-26-2016 12:57 PM


Re: Christianity 101
I'm continuing the Marketing Of Christianity Topic. A couple of new questions have come up.

If you recall, we were discussing at length the character and motive of Saul Of Tarsus 3.0, otherwise known as Paul.

jar writes:

Paul would only be happy marketing a new Pauline Christianity. Paul was not happy marketing James' Christianity or Peter's Christianity, Paul insisted on marketing Paul's Christianity. Pauline Christianity is based on Paul amplifying and explaining what Jesus really meant. What you see in Paul's Epistles is Jesus through the filter of Paul.
Remember that Jesus ministry only lasted 2-3 years.
Paul converted when he was about 25-30 year old and his ministry lasted for over 30 years, ten times as long as Jesus ministry.

Who wrote Jude? Zondervan says this:
The book of Jude tells us that it was written by “Jude, slave of Jesus the Anointed One, and brother of James.”

There is a consensus that the “brother of James” identifies the author as the brother of that James who led the community of Jesus-followers in Jerusalem from at least 40 CE until his execution in 62 CE—in other words, the same person who wrote the book of James.

That would make Jude the younger brother of Jesus. In lists of Jesus’ brothers, James is always listed first and Jude is listed last (Matthew 13:55) or next to last (Mark 6:3).

But note that neither Jude nor James mentions a family relationship between them and Jesus.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 03-26-2016 12:57 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by jar, posted 10-13-2017 7:17 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1858
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 476 of 536 (821823)
10-13-2017 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by NoNukes
07-08-2017 8:08 PM


Re: God Unplugged
And plants, too. Just because Adam and Eve sinned.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by NoNukes, posted 07-08-2017 8:08 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29765
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 477 of 536 (821824)
10-13-2017 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 475 by Phat
10-13-2017 2:18 AM


Re: Christianity 101
Phat writes:

Who wrote Jude?

Likely the same person or someone from the same chapter of Club Christian as the author of Jude that wrote 2Peter but we will never know the actual author.

BUT, like 2Peter it is apocalyptic literature and points to one of the first crisis that shook the new creation Christianity, the failure of Jesus to return during the lifetime of the first generation of converts.

Those three books, James, Jude and 2Peter are very interesting. For example, James makes no references to the death or resurrection of Jesus or even hints of Jesus as the Son of God and uses the title Lord more as a leader or ruler than as a divine being.

All three have a common theme though of patience under adversity and continued faith. They stress behavior and finally in 2Peter offer the apologetic that Jesus changed his mind and did not end the world to give more people time to join the club.

Remember, early Christianity was not a "The End is Near" religion but a "The End is Here" based religion. Like so many cults today the basis was that it's over, the fat lady done sung and here comes the trumpets.

But that never happened. The END did not come. Jesus did not return and so Christianity had to evolve, to change the story, to create some new revised Christianity.

Another interesting part often overlooked is that the author of Jude quotes passages from the Book of Enoch that is only seen as canonical by the Eritrean and Ethiopian churches.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Phat, posted 10-13-2017 2:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10231
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 478 of 536 (823972)
11-20-2017 1:58 PM


Food For Thought
Concerning the marketing of Christianity, I've come across several blogs on the internet lately that have in my opinion some persuasive words and food for thought.

The first one is titled The Christians Making Atheists by John Pavlovitz.

It is short, to the point, and in my opinion worth fodder for further discussion.

Edited by Phat, : punctuation


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by Pressie, posted 11-21-2017 6:05 AM Phat has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1858
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 479 of 536 (824002)
11-21-2017 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 478 by Phat
11-20-2017 1:58 PM


Re: Food For Thought
One of the comments on that article hit the mark for me. It is:

quote:
John, while I agree with your points about overly righteous Christians driving people away, you missed mark on what makes an atheist an atheist: We simply do not believe in your God or in any other gods.

For me it was simply that I stopped believing in existence of a God or Gods due to the lack of reliable evidence for the existence of Gods.

The so-called "evidence" provided by the so-called experts on theology were totally unreliable, often contradictory and most often outright lies.

That's it.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by Phat, posted 11-20-2017 1:58 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 6:48 AM Pressie has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10231
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 480 of 536 (824003)
11-21-2017 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 479 by Pressie
11-21-2017 6:05 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Your comment certainly calls to mind the reason that one is or is not a believer. Biblical Christians may claim that the experience which they had at one point--the well known Born Again claim popularized by evangelist Billy Graham, was what they chose at a certain point. Supposedly, after such an experience, the choice becomes internally obvious.

As an atheist, you mention the E word--evidence---and say that is what stopped you from accepting the call. So what do we make of this? Is the difference between believers and non-believers simply a matter of choice? Past experiences? Upbringing? Or does God Himself pick and choose? (Or are some people rational enough to see that not only is the Emperor wearing no clothes but that there is no Emperor! ) Personally, I go with confirmation bias. Some of us want to have a guiding father figure while others recoil at the prospect of spending eternity enslaved. In addition, some of us need evidence in order to make important decisions, while others are emotionally impulsive.

The article concludes by saying:

the reason the Church soon will be teetering on the verge of extinction and irrelevance, will be because those entrusted to perpetuate the love of Jesus in the world, lost the plot so horribly, and gave the world no other option but to look elsewhere for goodness and purpose and truth.

Soon these Christians will ask why humanity has rejected Jesus and we will remind them of these days, and assure them that they have not rejected Jesus at all—they just found no evidence of him in the Church.

And this brings up a point. Perhaps if the church were more loving and relevant, more atheists would attend out of the social need to do something relevant and fun for other people---regardless whether they believed in God or not. Sadly, the secular groups have met the need for social interaction much better than the phoniness of todays church. Tangle has said it all along---religion is dying globally...on the way out.

Edited by Phat, : added


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Pressie, posted 11-21-2017 6:05 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Pressie, posted 11-21-2017 7:22 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 486 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2017 8:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 487 by dwise1, posted 11-21-2017 10:30 AM Phat has responded

  
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