Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8805 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-13-2017 7:22 PM
331 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), Percy (Admin) (2 members, 329 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,103 Year: 28,709/21,208 Month: 775/1,847 Week: 150/475 Day: 43/17 Hour: 1/2

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
3132
33
343536Next
Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1856
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 481 of 536 (824004)
11-21-2017 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by Phat
11-21-2017 6:48 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:

So what do we make of this? Is the difference between believers and non-believers simply a matter of choice?

Nope. The exact opposite for me.

To believe or not to believe is not a matter of choice. It's a matter of convincing evidence.

I don't choose to "believe" that the form of the earth is that of a more-or-less oblong spheroid. I got convinced through reliable evidence that the earth has the form of a more-or-less oblong spheroid. No choice involved at all.

Same as that the chooks coming from the eggs of my other chooks will also be chooks and not sheep. No choice in my beliefs at all.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 6:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 482 of 536 (824005)
11-21-2017 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 473 by Tangle
07-07-2017 12:16 PM


Heaven & Hell
Tangle writes:

You're telling me that you don't believe in heaven and hell?

What I will say is that I don't believe that we simply cease to exist once our physical bodies die. It is equally difficult to believe in a place with streets of gold where people sing praises for eternity to God. jar has mentioned before how that would be worse than hell.

And I dont believe in a place of eternal torment. If God is as loving as many suggest, He would most certainly give people the option of ceasing to exist, should they not make the cut. So in conclusion, for me not believing that we simply cease to exist means that I believe in a positive future after this life.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Tangle, posted 07-07-2017 12:16 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by jar, posted 11-21-2017 7:53 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 483 of 536 (824008)
11-21-2017 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 482 by Phat
11-21-2017 7:29 AM


Re: Heaven & Hell
Go back to the quote you included from the end of the article.

quote:
the reason the Church soon will be teetering on the verge of extinction and irrelevance, will be because those entrusted to perpetuate the love of Jesus in the world, lost the plot so horribly, and gave the world no other option but to look elsewhere for goodness and purpose and truth.

Soon these Christians will ask why humanity has rejected Jesus and we will remind them of these days, and assure them that they have not rejected Jesus at all—they just found no evidence of him in the Church.


What does that mean? What would be evidence of Jesus?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 7:29 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 484 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 8:04 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 484 of 536 (824009)
11-21-2017 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 483 by jar
11-21-2017 7:53 AM


Jesus as Mythos
jar writes:

What does that mean? What would be evidence of Jesus?

The point has been brought up before that there is no evidence that Jesus even existed. I disagree with this statement because I find that the issue is far from conclusive, but in any event, I will agree with you that the issue of whether Jesus existed, exists, is or is not God, or that GOD either exists or doesn't is irrelevant.

Santa Claus exists only because people don the traditional suit and imitate his legendary character. If more people did the same with Jesus, Jesus would exist even as mythos. I'm not fully persuaded by your overall arguments on this topic, first because I don't agree with the accusation that the editors and redactors had an impure motive.

Some evidence exists that much was added to the compilation of the Bible since Jesus allegedly died and resurrected.

In order to find current evidence, one has to look at the church. And, as the article attests, we dont do a very good job of donning our suits and going out and doing. In conclusion, the only evidence that we have of Jesus Christ is the behavior and actions of his followers. Speaking for myself and to myself individually, the only evidence that I would accept involves the behavior and actions of myself and others. I'm still waiting...


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by jar, posted 11-21-2017 7:53 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by ringo, posted 11-21-2017 11:15 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 486 of 536 (824012)
11-21-2017 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by Phat
11-21-2017 6:48 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:

Is the difference between believers and non-believers simply a matter of choice? Past experiences?

You're trying to make this far, far more complicated than it is.

The majority of atheists of my age grew up in Christian communities where church and religion was as natural a part of our young lives as Sunday lunch and Father Christmas.

But I became an atheist in exactly the same way that I stopped believing in Father Christmas - it just grew naturally and obviously. It all just became absurd. It wasn't just that there was no evidence, it was that it is was so utterly absurd. Of course as soon as you see that the emperor has no clothes you can't stop laughing at him and you wonder not just why you were fooled for so long but why so many grown ups continue to be fooled.

After that initial falling away of belief which combines with an increasing acknowedgement of the faith's total absurdities - it's rituals, traditions, costumery, preposterous theatre and so on; the bells and smells - there is a lifelong build up of hard evidence against.

Religion simply doesn't stand a chance against real knowledge. It's inevitable that it will decline in its current form and you can see this happened very rapidly both in simple numbers and in the changes of beliefs inside the religions themselves to make them acceptable to modern life.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 6:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3028
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 487 of 536 (824016)
11-21-2017 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by Phat
11-21-2017 6:48 AM


Re: Food For Thought
As an atheist, you mention the E word--evidence---and say that is what stopped you from accepting the call. So what do we make of this? Is the difference between believers and non-believers simply a matter of choice? Past experiences? Upbringing? Or does God Himself pick and choose? (Or are some people rational enough to see that not only is the Emperor wearing no clothes but that there is no Emperor! ) Personally, I go with confirmation bias. Some of us want to have a guiding father figure while others recoil at the prospect of spending eternity enslaved. In addition, some of us need evidence in order to make important decisions, while others are emotionally impulsive.

Actually, I became an atheist by trying to learn what I was supposed to believe as a Christian. So I started reading the Bible and found that entire thing so unbelievable ... well, since I couldn't believe what it said, then I couldn't be a Christian. Over the next half decade I learned more about the history of Christianity and found it even less appealing. Then came the Jesus Freak Movement of which I was a "fellow traveler". The more I learned of what they taught and believed, the less I could believe it and the more it confirmed that I had made the right decision to leave. Then came "creation science" and the Religious Right, both of which demonstrate how even more reprehensible {their} Christianity is. Now we have the evangelicals supporting the Anti-Christ (or is Trump the Beast?) in pursuit of secular power -- they keep getting worse and worse.

More generally in the case of many if not most ex-Christians, they started thinking and examining and found that they could no longer believe what they were supposed to. In case after case, they tried as hard as they could to continue to believe, but either you believe or you don't -- you cannot choose to believe.

And this brings up a point. Perhaps if the church were more loving and relevant, more atheists would attend out of the social need to do something relevant and fun for other people---regardless whether they believed in God or not.

Certainly that would contribute towards showing that Christianity is a viable option. Knowing "true Christians" as I do, I'm not holding my breath.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 6:48 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 494 by Phat, posted 11-27-2017 8:19 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 488 of 536 (824020)
11-21-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by Phat
11-21-2017 8:04 AM


Re: Jesus as Mythos
Phat writes:

In conclusion, the only evidence that we have of Jesus Christ is the behavior and actions of his followers.


That doesn't make any sense. The behaviour of Christians can not be distinguished from the behaviour of atheists. If the behaviour of Christians was evidence of Christ, wouldn't the behaviour of atheists be evidence that there is no God?

No. It seems clear that behaviour is not evidence for beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 8:04 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 8:12 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 489 of 536 (824043)
11-21-2017 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by ringo
11-21-2017 11:15 AM


Re: Jesus as Mythos
ringo writes:

The behaviour of Christians can not be distinguished from the behaviour of atheists. If the behaviour of Christians was evidence of Christ, wouldn't the behaviour of atheists be evidence that there is no God?

Not necessarily. The behavior of any human may well be evidence of some external influence. I cannot prove it, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by ringo, posted 11-21-2017 11:15 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 490 by dwise1, posted 11-22-2017 1:56 AM Phat has responded
 Message 493 by ringo, posted 11-22-2017 2:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3028
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 490 of 536 (824060)
11-22-2017 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 489 by Phat
11-21-2017 8:12 PM


Re: Jesus as Mythos
Not necessarily. The behavior of any human may well be evidence of some external influence. I cannot prove it, however.

Well, basically, everybody is influenced by a number of external influences, as well as internal ones (which in turn may have been created by external influences). And in some cases (or many cases), they will project their own personal desires on that "external influence" in order to pervert it to serve their needs, as is far too often done with religion.

Here's an interesting one: The Matthew 7:20 Test.

How well do you do?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 8:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by Phat, posted 11-22-2017 3:08 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 491 of 536 (824061)
11-22-2017 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 490 by dwise1
11-22-2017 1:56 AM


Re: Jesus as Mythos
I could do better. There have been times I have been fruitful and other times I have been lazy and selfish.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 490 by dwise1, posted 11-22-2017 1:56 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 492 by jar, posted 11-22-2017 6:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 492 of 536 (824063)
11-22-2017 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 491 by Phat
11-22-2017 3:08 AM


Re: Jesus as Mythos
You need to go beyond just Matt 7:20.

The people Jesus is talking to respond pointing out that they have cast out demons in Jesus name and prophesied in Jesus name and done wondrous works in Jesus name.

That sure sounds like the typical Evangelical Bible Christian carny midway. Miracles on miracles, healing and casting out demons and prophesy and show. Praise in His name.

An Jesus' response to them is found in Matt 23.

Once again, it is Jesus' followers that Jesus' is discussing; not heathens, not atheists, not Muslims, not Buddhists but Followers of Christ.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin or is spelt with an f not an r

Edited by jar, : more appalin spelling it is of that is spelt with an f


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by Phat, posted 11-22-2017 3:08 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 493 of 536 (824083)
11-22-2017 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 489 by Phat
11-21-2017 8:12 PM


Re: Jesus as Mythos
Phat writes:

The behavior of any human may well be evidence of some external influence.


We are all the product of external influences. The point is that there is no distinguishable difference between those who think they are influenced by "God" and those who think they are not. So again, behaviour is not evidence of belief.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by Phat, posted 11-21-2017 8:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 494 of 536 (824341)
11-27-2017 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 487 by dwise1
11-21-2017 10:30 AM


Re: Food For Thought
dWise1 writes:

More generally in the case of many if not most ex-Christians, they started thinking and examining and found that they could no longer believe what they were supposed to. In case after case, they tried as hard as they could to continue to believe, but either you believe or you don't -- you cannot choose to believe.

Interesting. I'll have to think more about this premise.I assumed that belief was a choice, but now that you put it that way....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by dwise1, posted 11-21-2017 10:30 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2017 11:26 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 496 by ringo, posted 11-27-2017 11:42 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5235
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 495 of 536 (824361)
11-27-2017 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 494 by Phat
11-27-2017 8:19 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:

I assumed that belief was a choice, but now that you put it that way....

It can't be a choice can it? The vast majority are simply born into it and learn belief like they learn to speak.

If the 'truth' is 'revealed', then it's not a choice either - it's an imposition.

With Father Christmas, kids are taught about him and given evidence of his existence every year, they live in a culture where he's real. At some point doubts will set in as they begin to work it out and for a while kids probably know he's a fake but prefer to carry on believing, finally the whole thing is swept away by real knowledge.

You can't not believe in FC as a child and you can't believe as an adult. The only point where choice MAY come into it is during the process of beginning to disbelie, but it's an unconcious process so choice is really the wrong word. It's developmental.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by Phat, posted 11-27-2017 8:19 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 496 of 536 (824364)
11-27-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 494 by Phat
11-27-2017 8:19 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:

I assumed that belief was a choice....


You can choose to pretend to believe something that you really know to be false. In retrospect, I don't think I was ever a True believer but it was easier to go with the flow.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by Phat, posted 11-27-2017 8:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by Phat, posted 11-27-2017 4:19 PM ringo has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
3132
33
343536Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017