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Author Topic:   Creation
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1 of 360 (782424)
04-22-2016 3:13 AM


I would like to discuss what the Bible says about creation in comparison to what Science says about creation.

Since my arguments will be based on the Bible this will need to be placed in the Bible Study.

I would like to discuss one point at the time starting with creation according to what the Bible has recorded in it.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This verse tells us that "In the beginning" is when the heaven and the earth was created.

YEC's tell us that was 6 to 10 thousand years ago.

Science tells us that was 13.4 to 20 billion years in the past. Some scientist have shortened the time to 8 billion years in the past.

The Bible does not say when the beginning was, just that it was. There is no verse in the Bible that says when the beginning was.

Therefore the universe could have began to exist at any point in past duration.

Thus the Bible and science agrees that the universe began to exist and it is old.

Once we have discussed what the bible says about the beginning to exist of the universe and the scientific view we can move on to how God might have accomplished that event.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Pressie, posted 04-22-2016 6:55 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 04-22-2016 7:05 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2016 10:40 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 04-24-2016 12:10 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply
 Message 29 by ProtoTypical, posted 04-24-2016 9:40 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 176 by arachnophilia, posted 05-07-2016 10:01 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 260 by Davidjay, posted 06-05-2017 9:54 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 277 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-11-2017 6:26 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 2912
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 2 of 360 (782425)
04-22-2016 3:43 AM


Who cares what the Bible says? That is the Word of Man.

Here is a little song:

quote:

From desert cliff and mountaintop we trace the wide design,
Strike-slip fault and overthrust and syn and anticline. . .
We gaze upon creation where erosion makes it known,
And count the countless aeons in the banding of the stone.
Odd, long-vanished creatures and their tracks & shells are found;
Where truth has left its sketches on the slate below the ground.
The patient stone can speak, if we but listen when it talks.
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the rocks.

There are those who name the stars, who watch the sky by night,
Seeking out the darkest place, to better see the light.
Long ago, when torture broke the remnant of his will,
Galileo recanted, but the Earth is moving still.
High above the mountaintops, where only distance bars,
The truth has left its footprints in the dust between the stars.
We may watch and study or may shudder and deny,
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the sky.

By stem and root and branch we trace, by feather, fang and fur,
How the living things that are descend from things that were.
The moss, the kelp, the zebrafish, the very mice and flies,
These tiny, humble, wordless things---how shall they tell us lies?
We are kin to beasts; no other answer can we bring.
The truth has left its fingerprints on every living thing.
Remember, should you have to choose between them in the strife,
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote life.

And we who listen to the stars, or walk the dusty grade,
Or break the very atoms down to see how they are made,
Or study cells, or living things, seek truth with open hand.
The profoundest act of worship is to try to understand.
Deep in flower and in flesh, in star and soil and seed,
The truth has left its living word for anyone to read.
So turn and look where best you think the story is unfurled.
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.



Turn and look. Are you a creationist? Then tell me Who Created the Universe.

Do you want to tell me that the Bible tells us something different from what is plainly evident? Based on what?

What the universe says about what God has wrought is indisputable. Do you then wish to dispute it?


    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 3 of 360 (782426)
04-22-2016 5:41 AM


ICANT writes:

I would like to discuss what the Bible says about creation in comparison to what Science says about creation.

Science doesn't have anything to say about any form of religious creation.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 9:33 PM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 4 of 360 (782427)
04-22-2016 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
04-22-2016 3:13 AM


quote:
Since my arguments will be based on the Bible this will need to be placed in the Bible Study.
So, your arguments will be based on a collection of 73 books?

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 04-22-2016 3:13 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25844
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 360 (782428)
04-22-2016 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
04-22-2016 3:13 AM


Apparently you wanted this to be treated as a topic proposal to be promoted to Bible Study, but you have begun it in the Coffee House forum instead of the Proposed Topics forum.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 04-22-2016 3:13 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11665
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 6 of 360 (782429)
04-22-2016 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
04-22-2016 3:13 AM


Thus the Bible and science agrees that the universe began to exist and it is old.

But science disagrees with the that very first verse in the Bible because the earth was not created in the beginning. There's billions of years between the beginning of the universe and the beginning of the earth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 04-22-2016 3:13 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 2:28 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5625
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 7 of 360 (782430)
04-23-2016 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by New Cat's Eye
04-22-2016 10:40 AM


Hi Cat

Cat Sci writes:

But science disagrees with the that very first verse in the Bible because the earth was not created in the beginning. There's billions of years between the beginning of the universe and the beginning of the earth.

Genesis 1:1 Does not say the heaven and the earth were created at the same moment. It just says they were created in the beginning.

So where is the problem?

The earth we live on today had to have many growing events during it's duration in existence to get to the size it is now with all the buried materials to form the fossil fuels that are in the earth.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2016 10:40 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 9:22 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-23-2016 10:29 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 14 by Diomedes, posted 04-23-2016 12:10 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2016 3:51 PM ICANT has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 8 of 360 (782431)
04-23-2016 8:37 AM


Thread Copied from Coffee House Forum
Thread copied here from the Creation thread in the Coffee House forum.
    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 9 of 360 (782432)
04-23-2016 8:43 AM


Thread Promoted
As Faith noted, this thread was started in the wrong forum, but it seems fine and I've promoted it to the Bible Study forum. The copy over at Coffee House is now closed.

I jut realized that The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy is a better forum for this thread, so after posting this message I'll move it again.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 10 of 360 (782434)
04-23-2016 8:43 AM


Thread Copied from Bible Study Forum
Thread copied here from the Creation thread in the Bible Study forum.
    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 11 of 360 (782435)
04-23-2016 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
04-23-2016 2:28 AM


ICANT writes:

Genesis 1:1 Does not say the heaven and the earth were created at the same moment. It just says they were created in the beginning.

If that is the position you take then it is simply worthless data with almost no value whatsoever.

The only value is that it is a great example of the common practice of the Christian Cult of Ignorance folk identifying themselves as "Biblical Christians" of quote mining, taking a single line out of context and trying to sell it as whole cloth.

The reality though is that the quote is part of a statement said to happen during a single first day.

That of course is patently false.

AbE:

Science (and reality instead of myth) on the other hand can actually provide understanding and additional information that simply cannot be discovered in any Bible stories. Science can tell us that the beginning of this universe was at least 14.5 Billion Years ago and that the beginning of this earth was about 4.5 Billion years ago and that it has NOT grown to this size but was about the same size from very close to it's beginning.

Edited by jar, : see AbE: hit submit instead of preview.

Edited by jar, : follow Admin's ruling


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 2:28 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Admin, posted 04-23-2016 9:46 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 16 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 6:09 PM jar has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 12 of 360 (782436)
04-23-2016 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
04-23-2016 9:22 AM


Moderator Ruling
jar writes:

The only value is that it is a great example of the common practice of the Christian Cult of Ignorance of quote mining, taking a single line out of context and trying to sell it as whole cloth.

I'm going to disallow denigrating labels like "Christian Cult of Ignorance."

Please, no replies to this message.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 9:22 AM jar has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11665
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 13 of 360 (782438)
04-23-2016 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
04-23-2016 2:28 AM


Genesis 1:1 Does not say the heaven and the earth were created at the same moment. It just says they were created in the beginning.

So where is the problem?

Its a singular beginning, since they were both created in it, they were created at the same moment. It does not say that the heaven and the earth were created in beginnings.

The earth we live on today had to have many growing events

Those are not beginnings. The earth was created in the beginning, growing events are another thing.

Edited by Cat Sci, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 2:28 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 7:29 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 32 by kbertsche, posted 04-24-2016 1:15 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 644
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 14 of 360 (782445)
04-23-2016 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
04-23-2016 2:28 AM


Genesis 1:1 Does not say the heaven and the earth were created at the same moment. It just says they were created in the beginning.

So where is the problem?

The earth we live on today had to have many growing events during it's duration in existence to get to the size it is now with all the buried materials to form the fossil fuels that are in the earth.

If you look at the first few versus of Genesis, you can see that it is inconsistent with the scientific views:

quote:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light, and there was light.

It specifically states that both the earth along with it's water surface was created in a realm of 'darkness'; subsequent to that, light came into being.

That is totally backwards from the scientific view of how the universe formed. There was no constituent matter: i.e. 'earth' (dirt) or water (H2O) at the beginning of the universe prior to light manifesting. The first 'light' was the result of the fusion reaction of stars as hydrogen fused to form helium. Additionally, the heavier elements that comprise the earth are the by-product of stars going through their life-cycle and dying.

So in essence, light had to exist prior to the earth. The bible states the reverse.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 2:28 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 8:59 PM Diomedes has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 15 of 360 (782453)
04-23-2016 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ICANT
04-23-2016 2:28 AM


Genesis 1:1 Does not say the heaven and the earth were created at the same moment. It just says they were created in the beginning.

So where is the problem?

Well, people have always read the Bible as meaning they were created at the same moment. So your argument would have to be that the Bible is in fact correct, but is so badly written that no-one knew what it meant until we could read it in the light of modern science.

It would make one wonder why God couldn't write the Bible so as to make himself understood; and what else in the Bible we are currently misreading for want of knowing the facts.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 2:28 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 04-23-2016 9:28 PM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 177 by arachnophilia, posted 05-07-2016 10:02 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
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