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Author Topic:   Creation
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 316 of 351 (815130)
07-16-2017 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Tom Larkin
07-16-2017 5:18 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
TL writes:

Can you elaborate on the logic associated with your conclusions? You should view the "Argument Clinic" by Monty Python, it is very funny.

Where is my logic flawed? Jesus is all throughout the old testament - check out the 22nd Psalm - it is a detailed description of the crucification.

I am aware of all the so called prophecies about Jesus that some Christian groups try to market but so far no one has ever been able to support them in an honest fashion. Even the so called fulfillment prophecies in the New Testament are not honest examples of fulfilled prophecy but rather created mythology and even state they are faked fulfillment.

We have had many, many threads here on "Biblical Prophecy" and so far it has all been "Biblical Perversion". If you wish to start yet another thread on Biblical Prophecy then we can go through the exercise yet again.

On the Creation myths, not only are all the orders incorrect but in reality none of the living critters mentioned in the stories have ever been found in the evidence from early lifeforms and in fact all the evidence shows that none of the critters mentioned in the tales existed until millions of years after the beginning of the earth while most of the astral things existed for billions of years BEFORE the Earth. The Earth was not created in the beginning but rather about 10,000,000,000 years after the beginning.

If you read through my posts in this thread I have outlined the logic associated with my conclusions. In particular Message 296 deals with the Genesis 1 and Genesis 2&3 tales. To read just one persons posts go to the first page and in the list of participants click on a name. It will sort out all the posts from that person in the topic.

As a Christian I believe we need to begin being honest about what the Bible actually says instead of trying to make it fit what we want it to say.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-16-2017 5:18 PM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-16-2017 6:26 PM jar has responded

  
Tom Larkin
Junior Member
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 317 of 351 (815137)
07-16-2017 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by jar
07-16-2017 5:47 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
Thanks for the thoughtful response, I have reviewed the referenced response that clearly shows you have done a great deal of work in this area. I agree that the church may not be recognizable to Jesus or Paul today. We are instructed to love our brother, yet we have to be reminded to even "tolerate" or coexist" with our brother. Judgment of others is rampant and we do many things that call attention to ourselves rather than Jesus.

1. I would be interested hear what is the basis for your current beliefs? How do we know the mind of God? What is right and what is wrong? How can we have fellowship with God? What should be our relationship to other men and women?

2. Another of your comments "Why did they include two mutually exclusive and contradictory creation tales and why put the much younger creation tale before the much older creation tale?" is the exact reason that I wrote this book. I presented a Biblical argument that these two stories are sequential, and not retelling of the same story which eliminate the conflict with science. It doesn't matter how God created man, just that he did it. The sequence is pretty impressive for being 3-4k years old. I think the specific sequence where birds are placed in order give us a clue that Moses was shown the evolution of animals, as birds are put in the order of where you would think dinosaurs to be (from who they evolved). If you reject the bible, then you will not accept my argument as it describes how the sequential order of Chapters 1 and 2 align with other content in the Bible (the rest of Genesis, specifically Genesis 6). I would still be interested in your answer to question one (or a redirect to a post that explains it)

Tom


This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 5:47 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 6:48 PM Tom Larkin has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 318 of 351 (815142)
07-16-2017 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Tom Larkin
07-16-2017 6:26 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
TL writes:

How do we know the mind of God? What is right and what is wrong? How can we have fellowship with God? What should be our relationship to other men and women?

We can't know the mind of God, whatever that word salad means. I have no idea how anyone could have fellowship with God or what that word salad means. What our relationship with other men and women should be is simple though, Love thy neighbor as you love yourself. Do unto other as you would have others do unto you.

That part is really simple. Hold a door for someone who is encumbered. Take the grocery carts back to the collection area. Bring in your neighbors trash can as you get yours. Kneel down when talking to kids so you are at their eye level. Say good morning and hello. Smile at strangers. Stop and listen when others talk and do not pass the Talking Feather widdershins.

TL writes:

I presented a Biblical argument that these two stories are sequential, and not retelling of the same story which eliminate the conflict with science.

But of course it does not eliminate the fact they are both factually false, simply wrong. They are just fictional.

TL writes:

If you reject the bible, then you will not accept my argument as it describes how the sequential order of Chapters 1 and 2 align with other content in the Bible (the rest of Genesis, specifically Genesis 6).

But I don't reject the Bible; I reject the perversion of the Bible marketed by so many Christians including your book. By trying to pretend they are historical or factual in anyway diminishes and perverts the actual value of what the stories were meant to teach.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-16-2017 6:26 PM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-16-2017 8:06 PM jar has responded

  
Tom Larkin
Junior Member
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 319 of 351 (815149)
07-16-2017 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by jar
07-16-2017 6:48 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
The philosophy you describe toward man is in the Bible, with the exception that you did not include "love your enemy". How can you determine what has been perverted and what is not? I am really interested to know in the pursuit of truth.

I noticed that many time Jesus quotes from the Old Testament, that was my first indication that there may be some truth in it. He spoke out against the religious leaders of the time (as I am sure he would do now) and the religious traditions, but not against the scriptures.

I have begun to study Hebrew to develop a better understanding of the Old Testament and the language of Genesis is pretty basic, it is difficult to screw up the translation (One point of interest is that the word for God, Elohim, is actually a plural word). Again I will ask if there is a source I can study, in pursuit of the truth, to help me understand what text has been perverted. My detailed study of the Bible over the last 10 years has shown remarkable consistency throughout and an understanding of the mind of God, how to have fellowship with Him, now and in the future, and what is God's plan for our lives.

I have seen Christians says ridiculous things about science and have this spill over into non Biblical matters, such as Climate Change. The purpose of my book is to bring back alignment and minimize the district of science. I will e-mail a manuscript to anyone who requests it. My intent is not to make any money, but to eliminate this perceived conflict.

I will one again request a list of resources from which I can determine what has been perverted in the Bible and what has not.

Your brother in the pursuit of knowledge and in Christ,
Tom


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 6:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 8:22 PM Tom Larkin has responded
 Message 321 by NoNukes, posted 07-17-2017 4:11 AM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 320 of 351 (815153)
07-16-2017 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by Tom Larkin
07-16-2017 8:06 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
I'm not sure what or who might be an enemy and I don't think I have ever had an enemy so yes of course I left that out. It is pretty much irrelevant in living our lives.

We simply don't come in contact with enemies but we constantly come in contact with other people. If we treat them as we would like to be treated then we are actually doing what Jesus commanded us to do.

TL writes:

I will one again request a list of resources from which I can determine what has been perverted in the Bible and what has not.

YOU are that resource and it is not the Bible that is being perverted but rather much of what Christianity teaches. You even list quite a few items and seem to be trying to address just that issue. Trying to make the Bible stories fit reality and history or claiming stuff was actually written by Moses or that there was a Garden of Eden or a Conquest of Canaan or an Exodus or that there are prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament or that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah are all examples of perverting the actual stories.

We need to acknowledge that there is no such thing a THE BIBLE or THE Christian Church or even The God of the Bible and that instead what we have are collections of stories written by different people to different audiences for different purposes that have then been crammed into several anthologies of anthologies and marketed as though it were a single book with a single subject.

Jesus was never a Christian.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-16-2017 8:06 PM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 5:00 PM jar has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9734
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 321 of 351 (815165)
07-17-2017 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by Tom Larkin
07-16-2017 8:06 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
I have begun to study Hebrew to develop a better understanding of the Old Testament and the language of Genesis is pretty basic, it is difficult to screw up the translation (One point of interest is that the word for God, Elohim, is actually a plural word).

In my opinion, a study of Hebrew culture and Bible traditions is at least as important as understanding the exact meaning(s) of words. My opinion is not shared by most fundamentalists who often insist that ancient Hebrews were simply wrong about the written and oral traditions that they actually created; not just wrong about the Messianic traditions, but well off target regarding essentially all of the Old Testament.

Yes, learning the language is an aspect of the culture, but it really is not the be all and end all of trying to understand what the Bible is saying.

The alternative is to simply go along with what various Christian traditions and commentators have said. That is the path that most fundamentalists take. If you have an issue with that, you are going to be told that getting a different answer means that you are not being spiritually guided to your answer.

Yes, Jesus does cite the Old Testament. Jesus also used a mixture of personal experience, parables, and stories in his own ministry. His citations mean that scripture is valuable for teaching and correction. But they don't necessarily endorse any story as historical.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-16-2017 8:06 PM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 322 of 351 (815192)
07-17-2017 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Tom Larkin
07-16-2017 4:06 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Tom Larkin writes:

What I am saying is that the events of Genesis 1 and 2 are in sequence, in Chapter 1, men and women are created. In chapter 2 Adam and Eve are created, not the first men and women. Therefore there is no conflict with evolution, evolved man is in chapter 1.


Are you suggesting that there are two separate strains of humans on earth? Descendants of Adam and descendants of "the first mean and women"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-16-2017 4:06 PM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 5:04 PM ringo has responded

  
Tom Larkin
Junior Member
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 323 of 351 (815231)
07-17-2017 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by jar
07-16-2017 8:22 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
You continue to mention what is incorrect and what has been perverted - what is your source of truth about God?

What do you believe about God?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 8:22 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 07-17-2017 8:47 PM Tom Larkin has responded

    
Tom Larkin
Junior Member
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 324 of 351 (815233)
07-17-2017 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by ringo
07-17-2017 12:00 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
I am suggesting that men and women were created in Chapter 1 and that Adam and Eve and the garden were created in Chapter2. If you just read Genesis, this is what it says. I argue that this is consistent with the rest of Genesis:
Throughout the book of Genesis, the "generations" of the line not leading to Jesus are always given first (Cain before Seth, the generations of Japheth and of Ham are given before the generations of Shem, and so on.
I believe that the creation described in Chapter 1 is consistent with this approach, describes the line not leading to Jesus (and the "daughters of men" in Chapter 6), and the creation describe from Chapter 2 on describes the generations leading to Christ (the "sons of God" in Chapter 6, consistent with the rest of Genesis (more detail in the book).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by ringo, posted 07-17-2017 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by ringo, posted 07-18-2017 11:52 AM Tom Larkin has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 325 of 351 (815247)
07-17-2017 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Tom Larkin
07-17-2017 5:00 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
TL writes:

You continue to mention what is incorrect and what has been perverted - what is your source of truth about God?

Two unrelated issues.

The basis of what I consider incorrect and perverted are first, actual facts such as existing fossils and the universe compared to what is far too often taught as being Christianity. That includes what I consider perhaps the most evil dogma of all time, Calvinism.

Of course, I am also honest enough to admit that no one, absolutely no one knows any source of truth about God.

TL writes:

What do you believe about God?

Too funny.

I believe that whatever any of us believes about God, whatever anyone has ever believed about God, what anyone living will ever believe about God is almost certainly wrong.

Fortunately the Bible itself supports that position since there are so many different characterizations of God in the Bible ranging from the petulant tyrant to the bumbling tinkerer to the cheating wrestler to the wandering seeker to the overarching competent critter totally detached from mankind to the friendly mentor to the ...

Edited by jar, : fix quotebox


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 5:00 PM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-18-2017 5:41 AM jar has responded

  
Tom Larkin
Junior Member
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 326 of 351 (815260)
07-18-2017 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
07-17-2017 8:47 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
So by believing in nothing, you have set yourself up to be able to criticize everything. In my book, I state that my argument is Biblical so if you do not accept the Bible, then the argument is meaningless. There is no need for you to go further.

I believe that I am corrupt like every other person who ever lived except One, who took on my sin when he died on the cross. Through His death and resurrection I am declared righteous before God, not because of anything I have done.

I wish you the best, my brother,
Tom


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 07-17-2017 8:47 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by jar, posted 07-18-2017 6:30 AM Tom Larkin has not yet responded
 Message 329 by ringo, posted 07-18-2017 11:59 AM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29143
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 327 of 351 (815269)
07-18-2017 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Tom Larkin
07-18-2017 5:41 AM


Re: On the Bible and reality
TL writes:

So by believing in nothing, you have set yourself up to be able to criticize everything.

Not so fast little one. You asked about knowing, not believing. The two are not synonymous.

TL writes:

In my book, I state that my argument is Biblical so if you do not accept the Bible, then the argument is meaningless. There is no need for you to go further.

Again, not so fast little one. I actually accept the Bible but as Paul said, I no longer look through a glass dimly and have put aside my childish things. I accept that the Bible says what it says, and that there is no need to make stuff up to try to explain away the fact that it is filled with factual errors, contradictions and often a really evil God.

TL writes:

I believe that I am corrupt like every other person who ever lived except One, who took on my sin when he died on the cross. Through His death and resurrection I am declared righteous before God, not because of anything I have done.

And I find that simply a cop out, a get outta hell free card that diminishes Jesus to near worthlessness and denigrates all that he taught.

Your position is one of the great perversions that is so common in Christianity.

I agree that no one earns forgiveness but not because Jesus paid for my sins but rather through the grace of God. And no one knows whether or not they will be forgiven by God until they are dead a tried.

But we can earn damnation and in the parable of the Sheep and the Goats, it is the followers of Jesus, his disciples, that end up as Goats and the Sheep are folk that were not ever his followers.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-18-2017 5:41 AM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 328 of 351 (815294)
07-18-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Tom Larkin
07-17-2017 5:04 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Tom Larkin writes:

I am suggesting that men and women were created in Chapter 1 and that Adam and Eve and the garden were created in Chapter2. If you just read Genesis, this is what it says.


Actually no. If you read it without any preconceived notions, it just sounds like two references to the same people. Genesis 2 is more of a close-up. That's standard storytelling.

Tom Larkin writes:

I believe that the creation described in Chapter 1 is consistent with this approach, describes the line not leading to Jesus (and the "daughters of men" in Chapter 6), and the creation describe from Chapter 2 on describes the generations leading to Christ (the "sons of God" in Chapter 6, consistent with the rest of Genesis (more detail in the book).


So your answer is yes? There are two different strains of humans on earth? Is it possible to tell which of us are related to Christ and which are not?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-17-2017 5:04 PM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by NoNukes, posted 07-18-2017 12:02 PM ringo has responded
 Message 332 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-22-2017 11:19 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13326
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 329 of 351 (815296)
07-18-2017 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Tom Larkin
07-18-2017 5:41 AM


Re: On the Bible and reality
Tom Larkin writes:

In my book, I state that my argument is Biblical so if you do not accept the Bible, then the argument is meaningless.


I accept the Bible as it is, not as you wish it would be. I accept that it contains errors and/or inconsistencies like any other book. I don't have to accept your attempt at reconciliation or any of the other dozens of attempts at reconciliation.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-18-2017 5:41 AM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9734
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 330 of 351 (815297)
07-18-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by ringo
07-18-2017 11:52 AM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Actually no. If you read it without any preconceived notions, it just sounds like two references to the same people. Genesis 2 is more of a close-up. That's standard storytelling.

What you say is logical, but even ignoring Tom Larkin's interpretation, what you say does not seem to be the consensus opinion of most of the folk here. Based on that, I cannot say that your interpretation is "the" natural one.

I don't go as far as Larkin to suggest that Adam and Eve were not according to the Bible, the first humans but like you, I think Genesis 2 is more of a close-up. Most of the other folk here believe that Genesis 1 and 2 are simply incompatible stories.

As for what reading is more natural, I don't have a strong opinion. I can remember at an early age being confused about all of those other people described in Genesis 2 that seemed to be pre-Adam and Eve, but I have long since discarded that interpretation as unlikely.

Edited by NoNukes, : Language tweaked a bit.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by ringo, posted 07-18-2017 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by ringo, posted 07-18-2017 12:07 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
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