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Author Topic:   Creation
ringo
Member
Posts: 14570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 451 of 744 (827799)
02-01-2018 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by ICANT
02-01-2018 12:15 PM


Re: days and dates
ICANT writes:

My Bible Language degrees and further studies would disagree with you.


Any goober can get a degree. What you post on EvC suggests that you don't know what you're talking about. You don't even seem to understand the difference in English between all of the water being in one place and all of the land being in one place.

ICANT writes:

But the nearest stars to Earth are in the Alpha Centauri triple-star system, about 4.37 light years away.

The star Deneb is the farthest star that can be easily seen with the naked eye. It is thought to be between 1,400 and 3,000 light years from Earth.

So if those are attached to the ceiling as the ancient Greeks believed they are a long way from the earth and therefore a roof over planet earth is nonsense.


Which indicates that the Bible is wrong about the sky being "firm". You can jump through hoops to convince yourself that the Bible authors "must have known" but you'll have trouble dragging other people through the hoops with you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2018 12:15 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10577
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 452 of 744 (827801)
02-01-2018 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by ICANT
02-01-2018 12:15 PM


Re: days and dates
My Bible Language degrees and further studies would disagree with you.

The problem with this kind of evidence is that we've seen your arguments regarding Bible translations and know that they are not significantly better than your arguments regarding science.

Remember when you made this BS argument that Moses had no nouns?

Message 105

ICANT writes:

How did Moses have nouns when the word was not created until the 1400's BC?

You later acknowledged that Moses did have names for people, places, and things.

ICANT writes:

Well if Moses had something called a noun he might have had something called a proper noun.

Well if Moses had something called a noun he might have had something called a proper noun.

But since he did not have a noun that means he did not have a proper noun.

He did have the name of a person, place or thing.

I don't care what degrees you have. Your arguments are often not worth the paper they are not printed on.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2018 12:15 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2018 5:53 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5825
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 453 of 744 (827804)
02-01-2018 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by ringo
02-01-2018 11:03 AM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

ICANT writes:

Since the Universe existed complete at the end of verse 1....


That isn't what it says.

On what authority do you make that assertion?

This is exactly what Genesis 1:1 says.

quote:
בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ

I will break down the sentence for you.

Word 1. בראשית
A feminine noun meaning first, beginning, best, chief.
ב the first letter meaning in or on that absorb the definite article.

Word 2 ברא
Is a 1ps perfect verb that means the action of the subject of the verb producing the direct object of the verb has been completed.

Word 3. אלהים
Is a masculine plural noun meaning divine ones, that is the subject of the verb.

Word 4. את
Sign of the direct object not translated in English.

Word 5. השמים
The first letter ה is the definite article.
This word is a masculine dual noun which means 2 heavens and all that is in them.
It is the direct object of the verb that has been produced by the action of the subject of the verb.

Word 6. ואת
The first letter ו is the sign of a conjunction and translated and. The rest is the sign of the direct object which is not translated in English

Word 7. הארץ
The first letter וis the definite article.
The rest of the word is a feminine noun meaning the earth and all its contents. Which is the completed action of the subject of the verb.

This sentence has a verb that has, a subject, and an object which makes it a complete declarative statement.

Therefore this is a declarative statement, stating that the heavens and the earth are completed objects by God.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by ringo, posted 02-01-2018 11:03 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by ringo, posted 02-02-2018 10:48 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5825
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 454 of 744 (827813)
02-01-2018 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 452 by NoNukes
02-01-2018 12:53 PM


Re: days and dates
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

My Bible Language degrees and further studies would disagree with you.

The problem with this kind of evidence is that we've seen your arguments regarding Bible translations and know that they are not significantly better than your arguments regarding science.

Remember when you made this BS argument that Moses had no nouns?

Since the word noun was not invented until the 1400's Moses had no such thing as nouns.

Moses did have something we call nouns but he did not know they were nouns. He probably had a name for them but I can't find any information as to what that might have been.

NoNukes writes:

You later acknowledged that Moses did have names for people, places, and things.

I never denied he did not have those things. I just said he had no such things as nouns. Even though we call them nouns. But since the word noun was not invented until the 1400's he did not have any. He had something else.

NoNukes writes:

I don't care what degrees you have. Your arguments are often not worth the paper they are not printed on.

When I discuss ancient Hebrew I try not to think in modern terms. I try to think in ancient terms and sometimes I fail to do that. So if you don't understand it there is no skin off my teeth.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by NoNukes, posted 02-01-2018 12:53 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by NoNukes, posted 02-02-2018 12:21 AM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10577
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(3)
Message 455 of 744 (827819)
02-02-2018 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 454 by ICANT
02-01-2018 5:53 PM


Re: days and dates
Since the word noun was not invented until the 1400's Moses had no such thing as nouns.

Moses did have something we call nouns but he did not know they were nouns. He probably had a name for them but I can't find any information as to what that might have been.

Right, but that was not what you tried to argue back then, was it?

never denied he did not have those things. I just said he had no such things as nouns. Even though we call them nouns. But since the word noun was not invented until the 1400's he did not have any. He had something else.

That statement is just stupid ICANT. And since I believe that your own intelligence does not sink so low, I am forced to the conclusion that you are just dishonest. Moses had nouns regardless of what he would have called them. He also had hands although I am sure he would not have used the English word for those appendages at the end of his arms. Apparently, you will say just about anything without the slightest remorse. That's why folks should not even bother having a discussion with you.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2018 5:53 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2018 5:01 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 456 of 744 (827843)
02-02-2018 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by ICANT
02-01-2018 1:52 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

ringo writes:

Since the Universe existed complete at the end of verse 1....

ICANT writes:

That isn't what it says.


On what authority do you make that assertion?

Context. Genesis 1:2 says:
quote:
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

If the creation was not complete in verse 2, how could it be "completed" in verse 1?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2018 1:52 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2018 3:32 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5825
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 457 of 744 (827855)
02-02-2018 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by ringo
02-02-2018 10:48 AM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

If the creation was not complete in verse 2, how could it be "completed" in verse 1?

What did not exist in Genesis 1:2?

quote:
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The earth was there.
That requires the universe to exist as the earth is in the universe.
There was water there.

It does seem like it was in a mess at this particular time but it was not created in that condition in Genesis 1:1.

quote:
45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

The same word translated without form in Genesis 1:2 is translated void in Isaiah 45:18, and without form in Jeremiah 4:23.

Jeremiah saw the earth in the condition it is described as being in Genesis 1:1.

quote:
Jeremiah
4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jeremiah is looking at an earth in the condition found in Genesis 1:2 and describing it as uninhabitable as all the cities had been destroyed there was no man there and the birds had fled.

There is no other time in earth's history that would fit Jeremiah's description as there were humans, animals and birds after the flood of Noah.

Now if you would like to go back and take my analysis of Genesis 1:1 and show me where I am mistaken please do so.

Because Genesis 1:1 is what says that the heavens and the earth were a finished product at the end of the verse.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by ringo, posted 02-02-2018 10:48 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by ringo, posted 02-03-2018 11:12 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5825
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 458 of 744 (827860)
02-02-2018 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by NoNukes
02-02-2018 12:21 AM


Re: days and dates
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes, writes:

That statement is just stupid ICANT. And since I believe that your own intelligence does not sink so low, I am forced to the conclusion that you are just dishonest. Moses had nouns regardless of what he would have called them. He also had hands although I am sure he would not have used the English word for those appendages at the end of his arms. Apparently, you will say just about anything without the slightest remorse. That's why folks should not even bother having a discussion with you.

My argument then and now is that there was no such thing as a noun in Moses days.

It was whatever they called them.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by NoNukes, posted 02-02-2018 12:21 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Phat, posted 02-03-2018 8:31 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 484 by Aussie, posted 02-07-2018 2:02 PM ICANT has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10751
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 459 of 744 (827871)
02-03-2018 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by ICANT
02-02-2018 5:01 PM


A Noun By Any Other Name
Perhaps a better question would be this: Was there a person, place or thing in Moses day?

I agree that Moses had no idea what a noun was. Nor a Buick. Nor the definition of critical thinking. He may well have unconsciously used critical thought, however. How did people think in those days? That's the real question.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2018 5:01 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2018 8:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 460 of 744 (827876)
02-03-2018 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by ICANT
02-02-2018 3:32 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

It does seem like it was in a mess at this particular time but it was not created in that condition in Genesis 1:1.

quote:
45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Your reference from Isaiah doesn't support your claim that the creation was complete in Genesis 1:1. It's just a general reference to the whole creation.

ICANT writes:

Jeremiah saw the earth in the condition it is described as being in Genesis 1:1.

quote:
Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Again, Jeremiah was not distinguishing between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

ICANT writes:

There is no other time in earth's history that would fit Jeremiah's description as there were humans, animals and birds after the flood of Noah.


He wasn't talking about a time in earth's history - i.e. he wasn't talking about Genesis at all. Look at Jeremiah 4;27-29:
quote:
For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

He was talking about a future time when Israel would be destroyed if it didn't obey God.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2018 3:32 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2018 9:51 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5825
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 461 of 744 (827886)
02-03-2018 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by Phat
02-03-2018 8:31 AM


Re: A Noun By Any Other Name
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

Perhaps a better question would be this: Was there a person, place or thing in Moses day?

Yes there were people, places, and things in Moses days.

Phat writes:

How did people think in those days? That's the real question.

A lot different than we do today. They though of things being finished or ongoing. They thought that way because they only had verbs of action which told them an action was completed or was ongoing action.

That is the reason ringo and others can not understand that anyone reading what Moses wrote that understands Biblical Hebrew would conclude the Heavens and the Earth were completed in Genesis 1:1. There was no ongoing creation taking place.

The only other creation events in Genesis is the one in Genesis 1:21 when God created what was translated as whales but was nothing more than the fish to swallow Jonah. The other creation event was when God created mankind in Genesis 1:27. No other creation events took place.

Young earth creationism as discussed on EvC did not begin until the mid 1800's with Ellen G. White, who was one of the founders of the Seventh Day Adventist.

Old earth teachings go back to I don't know when. Origen believed in a pre-Adamic fall of beings that ended with a catastrophic event leaving the earth existing in the condition it is found in Genesis 1:2.

Origen, for example, who lived from 186 to about 254 A.D., and
to whom the original languages of the Bible were very familiar, has
this to say in his great work, De Principiis, at Gen. 1.1:

quote:
"It is certain that the present firmament is not spoken of
in this verse, nor the present dry land, but rather that heaven
and earth from which this present heaven and earth that we now see afterwards borrowed their names."

Einstein believed the heavens and the earth were old as he believed it was eternal.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Phat, posted 02-03-2018 8:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2018 9:23 PM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10577
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 462 of 744 (827887)
02-03-2018 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by ICANT
02-03-2018 8:57 PM


Re: A Noun By Any Other Name
Einstein believed the heavens and the earth were old as he believed it was eternal.

Einstein did believe in a static universe... until the evidence convinced him otherwise. But let's tell half of a story because that's the next best thing to just flat out lying.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2018 8:57 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2018 9:58 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5825
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 463 of 744 (827889)
02-03-2018 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by ringo
02-03-2018 11:12 AM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

Your reference from Isaiah doesn't support your claim that the creation was complete in Genesis 1:1. It's just a general reference to the whole creation.


quote:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


The first verse says God created the heavens and the earth.

You say it was not a completed creation, as it was created 'without form and void' Genesis 1:2.

quote:
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

The same word translated without form in Genesis 1:2 is translated void in Isaiah 45:18.

Isaiah says it was not created without form.

Verse 2 does not say it was created without form. It does say 'now the earth existed' without form and void.

ringo writes:

Again, Jeremiah was not distinguishing between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

No he did not say anything about Genesis 1:1.

Jeremiah did say he saw the earth in the following condition:

quote:
Jeremiah
4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Now if Jeremiah was not talking about the condition of the earth in Genesis 1:2, when was the earth in that condition that he could observe?

ringo writes:

He wasn't talking about a time in earth's history - i.e. he wasn't talking about Genesis at all. Look at Jeremiah 4;27-29:

He was talking about a future time when Israel would be destroyed if it didn't obey God.

When you get to an intersection that has a stop sign on your entrance into the intersection do you stop or speed on through the intersection. I don't think so.

But that is what you did when you went through the stop sign at the end of verse 26.

Verse 27 through 31 is a prophesy of a time and event yet to come to be, and yes it has to do with the children of Israel, and will happen in the last days. The next chapter verse 1 begins another prophesy and goes through verse 13. Verse 14-17 starts another prophesy. Verse 18-31 is another prophesy.

When Jeremiah said "I beheld (saw)" He was got giving a prophesy. He was talking about something he had observed (seen).

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by ringo, posted 02-03-2018 11:12 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by ringo, posted 02-04-2018 1:18 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5825
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 464 of 744 (827890)
02-03-2018 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by NoNukes
02-03-2018 9:23 PM


Re: A Noun By Any Other Name
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

Einstein did believe in a static universe... until the evidence convinced him otherwise. But let's tell half of a story because that's the next best thing to just flat out lying.

Are you now saying he believed in a young earth as in YECism?
Who is presenting false hoods now?

But didn't he spend the rest of his life trying to figure out how God did it since it had to have a beginning to exist?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2018 9:23 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by Phat, posted 02-04-2018 9:33 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 467 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2018 1:56 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 468 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2018 2:01 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10751
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 465 of 744 (827893)
02-04-2018 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 464 by ICANT
02-03-2018 9:58 PM


Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Phat writes:

Personally, I am a cosmological creationist. I believe that God exists and that He is the original source for everything created. Whether or not He intervenes...specifically within human thinking...is what intrigues me these days.

I CANT writes:

If you are saying the Bible and Science will agree on the facts of how the universe began to exist I would agree.

This source differs.

I CANT writes:

I tell people all the time if you can believe Genesis 1:1 you will not have any problem with any part of the rest of the Bible.
My question to you is why do you not believe in a literal reading of the Bible?

Because much of it makes the science out to be a complete fabrication. Which flies in the face of reality.

If the bible were 100% true, it would mean that our best science, logic, and testable approaches used by humanity were all wrong. Which would mean that reality is literally not as it appears. So I have a choice between believing in what I can see and perceive or taking a leap of faith in an ancient book.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2018 9:58 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2018 3:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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