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Author Topic:   Creation
ringo
Member
Posts: 14570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 466 of 739 (827896)
02-04-2018 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by ICANT
02-03-2018 9:51 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

Verse 2 does not say it was created without form. It does say 'now the earth existed' without form and void.


Verse one says it was created and verse 2 says it was without form. Thus, it was not complete in verse 1 because the form was yet to be determined.

ICANT writes:

Now if Jeremiah was not talking about the condition of the earth in Genesis 1:2, when was the earth in that condition that he could observe?


As I said, Jeremiah 4:28-29 says that it in the future the city would be attacked by horsemen and bowmen. Jeremiah was a prophet, after all, not a historian.

ICANT writes:

But that is what you did when you went through the stop sign at the end of verse 26.


There is no stop sign.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2018 9:51 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2018 4:33 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10573
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 467 of 739 (827897)
02-04-2018 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by ICANT
02-03-2018 9:58 PM


Re: A Noun By Any Other Name
Are you now saying he believed in a young earth as in YECism. Who is presenting falsehoods now

The falsehood presenter? That would be the lying sack of crap who made up statements, attributed them to me, and then tried to accuse me of lying. I said that Einstein understood that his modeling of the universe as static was an error. That particular truth is well known and documented. I doubt that even you dispute that point despite your previous couple of posts.

But didn't he spend the rest of his life trying to figure out how God did it...

No ICANT. That would be more pure fiction posted by you. Keep posting as you do. It reveals your character and your zeal for the truth, or at least the lack thereof.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2018 9:58 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2018 3:56 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7719
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 468 of 739 (827898)
02-04-2018 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by ICANT
02-03-2018 9:58 PM


Re: A Noun By Any Other Name
But didn't {Einstein} spend the rest of his life trying to figure out how God did it since it had to have a beginning to exist?

No.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2018 9:58 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5824
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 469 of 739 (827902)
02-04-2018 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by NoNukes
02-04-2018 1:56 PM


Re: A Noun By Any Other Name
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

I said that Einstein understood that his modeling of the universe as static was an error.

Yes.
Static universe = a super old earth like eternal.
BBT = and old earth.

NoNukes writes:

That particular truth is well known and documented.

Well he did not accept the expanding universe because he created his fudge factor which much later he said was his biggest mistake. I see you forgot that part.

NoNukes writes:

No ICANT. That would be more pure fiction posted by you. Keep posting as you do. It reveals your character and your zeal for the truth, or at least the lack thereof.

Did I make a statement representing a fact or did I ask a question?

Since when is asking a question telling a lie?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2018 1:56 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2018 4:14 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10573
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 470 of 739 (827904)
02-04-2018 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by ICANT
02-04-2018 3:56 PM


Re: A Noun By Any Other Name
Well he did not accept the expanding universe because he created his fudge factor which much later he said was his biggest mistake. I see you forgot that part.

I did not forget. I'll note that you are providing evidence for my own point rather than yours. Einstein eventually did accept the expanding universe. That's what formed the motivation for his regret, dumb ass.

Did I make a statement representing a fact or did I ask a question?

You did present your idea in the form of a question. And then you ended by questioning me about me about who was telling falsehoods as if your question was a statement of fact. Now go ahead and lie and say that you did no such thing.

In fact, we both know that I made no claim whatsoever that Einstein espoused YEC beliefs. What I did say was that Einstein had discarded the idea that the universe was eternal, something that your own statement seemed to leave out deliberately, because you seem to know enough of the details about what Einstein actually did.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2018 3:56 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5824
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 471 of 739 (827906)
02-04-2018 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by ringo
02-04-2018 1:18 PM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

There is no stop sign.

There is a stop sign at the end of Genesis 1:1.
There is a stop sign at the end of Jeremiah 4:26.

The Hebrew Bible was not divided into chapters and verses until 1571. Prior to that and from the Sinai there were parshiyos. which was a space in the text which was stop signs.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by ringo, posted 02-04-2018 1:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2018 5:15 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 02-05-2018 10:49 AM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10573
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 472 of 739 (827908)
02-04-2018 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by ICANT
02-04-2018 4:33 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

There is a stop sign at the end of Genesis 1:1.
There is a stop sign at the end of Jeremiah 4:26.

The Hebrew Bible was not divided into chapters and verses until 1571. Prior to that and from the Sinai there were parshiyos. which was a space in the text which was stop signs.


24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

space...

27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it

Perhaps something more than a space is needed to make whatever your point might be.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2018 4:33 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2018 11:12 AM NoNukes has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 473 of 739 (827914)
02-05-2018 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 471 by ICANT
02-04-2018 4:33 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

The Hebrew Bible was not divided into chapters and verses until 1571. Prior to that and from the Sinai there were parshiyos. which was a space in the text which was stop signs.


A parashah is similar to a paragraph break. It can be used to indicate the end of one story and the start of another but sometimes it's just a dramatic pause.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2018 4:33 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2018 2:54 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5824
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 474 of 739 (827952)
02-06-2018 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 472 by NoNukes
02-04-2018 5:15 PM


Re: Creation
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

Perhaps something more than a space is needed to make whatever your point might be.

Take a good look at my avatar and you will see what I mean about a space at the end of a paragraph.

This is a picture of the Dead Sea Scrolls from 185 BC.

As I said at the end of a paragraph there is a space. The ones in the picture is highlighted in yellow.

This space is to separate the preceding information from the information that is to follow.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2018 5:15 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by NoNukes, posted 02-06-2018 11:46 AM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10573
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 475 of 739 (827957)
02-06-2018 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 474 by ICANT
02-06-2018 11:12 AM


Re: Creation
Take a good look at my avatar and you will see what I mean about a space at the end of a paragraph.

I submit that it does not matter whether that space ends a paragraph or a chapter as far as your point is concerned. Neither of those is a reason that the two portions must be inconsistent. One reason for my conclusion is that there are indications both before and after first 4:26 that the subject matter in question is about the future and not the past.

For example:

5 Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities.

6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

No break between there and verse 26 right? Notice how I am pointing to text and making my argument based on what is there rather than trying to interpret a space?

Beyond that, I would suggest this.

Even if there is a break between verse 26 and 27, your suggestion that that alters the meaning in some way is just your interpretation. Your interpretation is neither required by the text nor is it a natural reading of the text. At best your argument is an excuse or an "it may be" for your interpretation. And your interpretation seems to be for the sole purpose of misreading the text of Genesis. Absent some separate reason to believe you over what is clearly on the page, I don't believe you.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2018 11:12 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2018 5:23 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5824
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 476 of 739 (827969)
02-06-2018 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by ringo
02-05-2018 10:49 AM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

A parashah is similar to a paragraph break. It can be used to indicate the end of one story and the start of another but sometimes it's just a dramatic pause.

parashah was invented by the Masoretes to mark a specific topic for reading in the Sabbath worship.

You depend on definitions that can be edited by just about anyone, too much.

The spaces in the picture of the Dead Sea Scrolls was not invented by the Masoretes, as it was text that had no vowels, accents, or punctuation.

To see those spaces in the Dead Sea Scrolls, just look at my avatar.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 02-05-2018 10:49 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by ringo, posted 02-07-2018 2:49 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5824
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 477 of 739 (827978)
02-06-2018 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by NoNukes
02-06-2018 11:46 AM


Re: Creation
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

No break between there and verse 26 right? Notice how I am pointing to text and making my argument based on what is there rather than trying to interpret a space?

The subject changes at verse 22.

NoNukes writes:

Even if there is a break between verse 26 and 27, your suggestion that that alters the meaning in some way is just your interpretation.

The subject changes at verse 22 and the subject changes at verse 27.

The verb ראה 'I beheld' is qal perfect meaning what Jeremiah saw was a completed event.

Verse 27 is referring to a future event.

NoNukes writes:

Absent some separate reason to believe you over what is clearly on the page, I don't believe you.

You are free to believe whatever you choose to believe.

But if you think I am wrong please show me where Jeremiah could have saw what he described anywhere else in the Bible.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by NoNukes, posted 02-06-2018 11:46 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by NoNukes, posted 02-06-2018 11:35 PM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10573
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 478 of 739 (827984)
02-06-2018 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 477 by ICANT
02-06-2018 5:23 PM


Re: Creation
But if you think I am wrong please show me where Jeremiah could have saw what he described anywhere else in the Bible.

It is your theory and not mine that Jeremiah is describing past events. I don't need to show any such thing.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2018 5:23 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 479 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2018 12:19 AM NoNukes has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5824
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 479 of 739 (827985)
02-07-2018 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 478 by NoNukes
02-06-2018 11:35 PM


Re: Creation
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

It is your theory and not mine that Jeremiah is describing past events. I don't need to show any such thing.

It is not a theory.

It is a fact according to the text.

I can't help it if you forgot how to read.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by NoNukes, posted 02-06-2018 11:35 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by NoNukes, posted 02-07-2018 8:54 AM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10573
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 480 of 739 (827987)
02-07-2018 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 479 by ICANT
02-07-2018 12:19 AM


Re: Creation
It is not a theory.

It is a fact according to the text.

I can't help it if you forgot how to read.

Hilarious. ICANT, you have zero credibility here. This entire thread is full of instances of you being wrong about assorted topics.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2018 12:19 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by jar, posted 02-07-2018 9:20 AM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 482 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2018 11:40 AM NoNukes has responded

    
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