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Author Topic:   Creation
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 511 of 1080 (828091)
02-09-2018 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 503 by ICANT
02-09-2018 12:55 PM


Re: days and dates
All I am trying to say is that you cannot apply rules of modern English and modern Hebrew to a language that has been dead since 600 BC.

If you had simply said that, we would have an argument instead of folks laughing when you post. On the other hand, you admit that Moses had words for persons, places, and things, so I suggest that you would still have lost the argument.

With that statement I will end my discussion of nouns.

Great idea. Best one you've had this thread.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2018 12:55 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 512 of 1080 (828100)
02-10-2018 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 510 by Tangle
02-09-2018 2:58 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Well first off that is highly unlikely to be true and also impossible to know but even if it was true it's oviously no miracle.

How many people do you know who have been married to the same woman they first married for 60 years?


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by Tangle, posted 02-09-2018 2:58 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by Tangle, posted 02-10-2018 3:19 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 517 by NoNukes, posted 02-10-2018 12:48 PM ICANT has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6182
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 513 of 1080 (828102)
02-10-2018 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 512 by ICANT
02-10-2018 1:57 AM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ICANT writes:

How many people do you know who have been married to the same woman they first married for 60 years?

Both my own parents and my wife's parents were married for over 60 years.

You realise that had I personally known no-one it still wouldn't be a miracle?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2018 1:57 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15412
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 514 of 1080 (828105)
02-10-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 501 by Phat
02-09-2018 12:35 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Phat writes:

Saying that the flood is untrue does not mean that the life and ministry of Jesus Christ is untrue.


It only takes one untruth to prevent the whole Bible from being true.

Phat writes:

More to the point, what is truth?


Truth is correspondence with reality.

Phat writes:

Is it possible to prove that Long John Silver is untrue?


Probably not.

Phat writes:

Did Jesus even exist?


If the Bible tells a story about a flood which we can prove is untrue, why would we trust it on other topics that can't be proven one way or the other?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Phat, posted 02-09-2018 12:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by Phat, posted 02-11-2018 4:15 PM ringo has responded
 Message 522 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2018 4:46 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15412
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 515 of 1080 (828106)
02-10-2018 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 504 by ICANT
02-09-2018 1:10 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ICANT writes:

What has been proven untrue?


I gave you an example in Message 441:
quote:
Plants growing on the third day (Geneis 1:11-13) before the sun was created (Genesis 1:14-19).

That isn't even logically possible, much less scientifically or historically correct.

ICANT writes:

Genesis 1:1

quote:
In the beginning created God the heavens and the earth

That says the universe had a beginning.


quote:
Once upon a time there were three bears....

That story has a beginning too. But later on it claims the bears lived in a house and sat on chairs and slept in beds, so we have reason to question whether it is true.

Similarly, Genesis claims that there were plants before the sun, so we have equal reason to question whether it is true.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2018 1:10 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2018 4:36 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15412
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 516 of 1080 (828107)
02-10-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 506 by ICANT
02-09-2018 1:41 PM


Re: days and dates
ICANT writes:

Moses had no word we translate as noun.


He had nouns whether he had a word for them or not. If you believe he wrote Genesis, you don't have to go beyond chapter 1, verse 1 to find a noun: "God" is a noun, "heavens" is a noun, "earth" is a noun.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2018 1:41 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 520 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2018 4:20 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 517 of 1080 (828112)
02-10-2018 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 512 by ICANT
02-10-2018 1:57 AM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
How many people do you know who have been married to the same woman they first married for 60 years?

That is quite impressive (to me at least) but a miracle? Perhaps not.

Yes, I do know personally a few folks that have been married that long.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2018 1:57 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2018 4:12 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 518 of 1080 (828144)
02-11-2018 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by NoNukes
02-10-2018 12:48 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

That is quite impressive (to me at least) but a miracle? Perhaps not.

Well I think every person has a soul mate somewhere in the world that was created just for them. So to find that one out of billions on the very first try I consider to be a miracle.

I have several friends who have been married for a long time to the same person. One couple we know celebrated their 68th Anniversary one month before we celebrated our 60th Anniversary. We have friends who have been married for 30 or more years all the way to 59 years. I can count over 50 such couples. I even have a couple of couples that got divorced in their first two years of marriage then remarried, their second marriage has lasted for 38 years for one couple and 44 years for the other couple.

Everyone of those couples would credit their long relationship to having God in control in their homes. They attend church regularly like every time there is a scheduled or special service.

So if this was the only benefit I ever got from my relationship with God it would be worth it. We celebrated our 60th Anniversary as husband and wife June 3, 2017 by having a ceremony renewing our vows.

But maybe you don't accept it as a miracle but I do. I met my soul mate on the first try when she was 13 and I was 14 then when I was 18 we were married. To me this is just one of God's proofs to me that He is in control.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by NoNukes, posted 02-10-2018 12:48 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 523 by Tangle, posted 02-11-2018 4:55 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11320
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 519 of 1080 (828146)
02-11-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by ringo
02-10-2018 11:04 AM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ringo writes:

It only takes one untruth to prevent the whole Bible from being true.

Thats about the silliest thing you have ever written. Had I wrote it you would have plenty to say to refute it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:04 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by ringo, posted 02-12-2018 11:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 520 of 1080 (828147)
02-11-2018 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by ringo
02-10-2018 11:19 AM


Re: days and dates
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

He had nouns whether he had a word for them or not. If you believe he wrote Genesis, you don't have to go beyond chapter 1, verse 1 to find a noun: "God" is a noun, "heavens" is a noun, "earth" is a noun.

You left out one word we classify as a noun. ראשית.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:19 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 525 by ringo, posted 02-12-2018 11:05 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 521 of 1080 (828149)
02-11-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by ringo
02-10-2018 11:13 AM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

That story has a beginning too. But later on it claims the bears lived in a house and sat on chairs and slept in beds, so we have reason to question whether it is true.

They had to exist before they could live in a house or sit on chairs or slept in beds.

But providing it is false that they slept in beds, sat on chairs, or lived in a house, it is still true that they had to have a beginning for them to exist. That is unless they are eternal in existence.

The same goes for the universe.
If the universe is not an eternal entity it had to have a beginning to exist.

So I ask you again:

quote:
Question #1 a 2 part question.

Did the universe have a beginning to exist, how?



Please give me the scientific answer to both parts of that question.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:13 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by ringo, posted 02-12-2018 11:13 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 528 by caffeine, posted 02-12-2018 2:54 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 522 of 1080 (828150)
02-11-2018 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by ringo
02-10-2018 11:04 AM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

It only takes one untruth to prevent the whole Bible from being true.

Which one of the nine problems that proves the BBT is false would satisfy you that the BBT is false? Especially since you say it only takes one to nullify the entire Bible. You can find all nine here: http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/...rch/gr/public/bb_problems.html

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:04 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by ringo, posted 02-12-2018 11:21 AM ICANT has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6182
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 523 of 1080 (828151)
02-11-2018 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by ICANT
02-11-2018 4:12 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ICANT writes:

Well I think every person has a soul mate somewhere in the world that was created just for them. So to find that one out of billions on the very first try I consider to be a miracle.

So my parents and parent in law are 1 in a billion each. That makes me having two of them 1bn x 1bn. Which is a very large and unlikely number. A double miracle, just for me!

Are you not seeing the flaws in this argument yet?

I met my soul mate on the first try when she was 13 and I was 14 then when I was 18 we were married. To me this is just one of God's proofs to me that He is in control.

Childhood sweethearts married a long time is not a rarity. You've hit a sweetspot where people of your age and generation married young and are now able to live longer - no global wars, better health. The modern generation marry late - if at all - and don't expect or even necessarily want to stay with the same person forever.

You're happy with your lot, but you're not unique nor is it remotely miraculous.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2018 4:12 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15412
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 524 of 1080 (828161)
02-12-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 519 by Phat
02-11-2018 4:15 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Phat writes:

Thats about the silliest thing you have ever written.


You have a habit of scoffing at things without thinking first.

Let's try this again: "It only takes one untruth to prevent the whole Bible from being true."

Some people believe that the whole Bible is true - every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, etc. Right?

If one thing in the Bible was false - e.g. the Flood - then the whole Bible would not be true, would it?

If one piece of fruit in the bag is not an apple, then the whole bag is not apples, right?

So what's silly?


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Phat, posted 02-11-2018 4:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15412
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 525 of 1080 (828162)
02-12-2018 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 520 by ICANT
02-11-2018 4:20 PM


Re: days and dates
ICANT writes:

You left out one word we classify as a noun.


So do you understand that Moses had nouns, even if he didn't call them nouns?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2018 4:20 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 533 by ICANT, posted 02-13-2018 1:49 AM ringo has responded

  
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