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Author Topic:   Creation
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 541 of 1359 (828246)
02-14-2018 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by ringo
02-13-2018 10:47 AM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

You claimed that the Big Bang was proven false. Message 522
Questions do no prove it false.

If you are going to quote me get the quote right.
Message 522

ICANT writes:

Which one of the nine problems that proves the BBT is false would satisfy you that the BBT is false?


If inflation does not exist those nine problems do not match what is observed.

You can find an open letter to the Scientific community at the web site below.
https://www.plasma-universe.com/..._the_Scientific_Community

There were 31 scientists that signed the above letter. After it was reproduced at cosmologystatement.org, another 200 scientist and engineers signed the letter as well as 250 independent researchers.
You can find the original document at: https://web.archive.org/...546/http://cosmologystatement.org
They point out that if inflation, dark matter and dark energy which has never been observed, does not exist, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the BBT.

They state: "the big bang theory can't survive without these fudge factors."

Now if you have any evidence for the existence of inflation, dark matter, and dark energy please share it.

Just because they are required for the BB to be a theory does not make any one of them exist.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by ringo, posted 02-13-2018 10:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by NoNukes, posted 02-15-2018 1:25 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 546 by ringo, posted 02-15-2018 11:44 AM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 542 of 1359 (828248)
02-15-2018 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by ICANT
02-14-2018 11:33 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
They point out that if inflation, dark matter and dark energy which has never been observed, does not exist, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the BBT.

They state: "the big bang theory can't survive without these fudge factors."

I can imagine some folks signing this document while still accepting the evidence for the BBT, dark matter, dark energy, and inflation. So what should I make of the number of folks who signed the paper? Exactly what are their opinions?

I do recognize some fairly famous names on the list, and no I am not claiming that everyone on the list accepts the same science. But telling me that the list has a couple hundred people on it when most of them are not even cosmologists, and when signing the list means something different for some folks than for others, is not all that persuasive.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by ICANT, posted 02-14-2018 11:33 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 543 of 1359 (828249)
02-15-2018 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 537 by ringo
02-13-2018 10:59 AM


Bible
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

No. It only means that the universe was once smaller than it is now. A series of contractions and expansions would produce the same observations.

That would mean the universe was infinite, eternal, if that took place. But is ruled out because it would have already run out of energy without an endless supply of energy.

ringo writes:


But it doesn't agree. The Bible doesn't mention expansion at all.

quote:
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;


I hear a lot of chatter about stretching and fabric when the universe is being talked about.

Stretching out the heavens would look a lot more like the pictures of the proposed universe, than what would be produced by a scaler field (which has never been seen but happened once to produce the universe) would.

If the universe started as a hot, dense, ball of energy and the space between each of the quarks and leptons began to expand that would produce a universe that would be a sphere. But if the space between all quarks and leptons expanded exponentially there would have never been any two able to combine and produce anything. Much less there would be no chance of a collision of galaxies as they would not exist.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by ringo, posted 02-13-2018 10:59 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by NoNukes, posted 02-15-2018 9:04 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 547 by ringo, posted 02-15-2018 11:52 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 544 of 1359 (828251)
02-15-2018 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by Astrophile
02-14-2018 7:13 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Hi Astrophile and welcome,

Astrophile writes:

First, even if the universe had a beginning, that doesn't necessarily mean that God created it. It could have come from nothing, as Lawrence Krauss says, or it may have come from something in an earlier universe.

I don't know if you can understand what non-existence is. But if you can you know that non-existence can not produce existence.

If you think so give me your explanation of what would make it possible.

Now if the universe came from a big bounce (big crunch of a universe beginning to expand into a new universe). That would make it eternal in existence.

Tell me what would be the mechanism that would cause the crunch to compress all that is in the old universe into the small little pea sized universe. Then what would be the mechanism that would cause it to begin to expand.

After a few eons there would be no energy left without an external eternal power source.

Astrophile writes:

I hope that this attempt at an answer helps you to understand that your question, as you phrased it, over-simplifies a very complex matter, and that there is no simple answer to it.

It has a simple answer.

Either it had a beginning to exist.
OR
It has existed infinitely in the past.

I can find no other possible solution.

Of the two solutions you proposed one is not possible, the other is a infinite universe.

Care to try again?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Astrophile, posted 02-14-2018 7:13 PM Astrophile has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by caffeine, posted 02-15-2018 2:57 PM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 545 of 1359 (828262)
02-15-2018 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by ICANT
02-15-2018 2:19 AM


Re: Bible
No. It only means that the universe was once smaller than it is now. A series of contractions and expansions would produce the same observations.

That would mean the universe was infinite, eternal, if that took place. But is ruled out because it would have already run out of energy without an endless supply of energy.

This exchange shows exactly why you should stick to being wrong about how to diagram a sentence, and why you should leave science to the serious scientists and to the amateurs who at least make try to read up on the matter.

If the universe has expanded from a smaller size, why would that make the universe eternal or infinite? Ringo's statement says nothing about the initial state of the universe at all, nor does it say anything about infinite expansion or the state of the universe today beyond it being bigger than at some other time.

But is ruled out because it would have already run out of energy without an endless supply of energy.

Can I see those computations, ICANT?

At least this time your statement is wrong. That's an improvement over past answers you've given that would cause a poor teaching assistant set your paper on fire.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 2:19 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 8:36 PM NoNukes has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 546 of 1359 (828269)
02-15-2018 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by ICANT
02-14-2018 11:33 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ICANT writes:

If you are going to quote me get the quote right.


I did. I copied and pasted it directly from your post.

ICANT writes:

Now if you have any evidence for the existence of inflation, dark matter, and dark energy please share it.


A shortage of evidence is not "proof" that the Big Bang is false.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by ICANT, posted 02-14-2018 11:33 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 7:26 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 547 of 1359 (828270)
02-15-2018 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by ICANT
02-15-2018 2:19 AM


Re: Bible
quote:
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Spreading doesn't mean expansion. When you spread butter you have the same volume. Only the shape changes.

quote:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Same as above. Curtains don't expand.

quote:
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Here you have the earth spreading. Science does not claim that the earth is expanding.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 2:19 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 02-15-2018 1:04 PM ringo has responded
 Message 554 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 7:22 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 548 of 1359 (828271)
02-15-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by ringo
02-15-2018 11:52 AM


Re: Bible
If at one point in time,even at the beginning of known time there was a singularity, that singularity would have the exact same weight and mass as the universe does now.

Belief is simply that God created the singularity rather than how it necessarily came to be. The BB theory may simply be a matter of observing Gods creation.

It makes more sense to ask "What came first? God or dirt" rather than to speculate that dirt has eternally existed. Critics say that one major reason that many people prefer the eternal dirt hypothesis is that dirt (matter) does not hold one accountable.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by ringo, posted 02-15-2018 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by jar, posted 02-15-2018 1:21 PM Phat has responded
 Message 559 by ringo, posted 02-16-2018 10:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 549 of 1359 (828273)
02-15-2018 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Phat
02-15-2018 1:04 PM


Re: Bible
Phat writes:

Critics say that one major reason that many people prefer the eternal dirt hypothesis is that dirt (matter) does not hold one accountable.

No, conmen say that.

The reality is that there is evidence that dirt does exist.

Phat writes:

If at one point in time,even at the beginning of known time there was a singularity, that singularity would have the exact same weight and mass as the universe does now.

And the evidence to support that statement is...?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 02-15-2018 1:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by Phat, posted 02-15-2018 1:27 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11577
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 550 of 1359 (828274)
02-15-2018 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by jar
02-15-2018 1:21 PM


Re: Bible
Because the singularity contains everything that is now out there...according to theory. Why would the mass change?
Or perhaps I am confusing mass with weight or volume.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by jar, posted 02-15-2018 1:21 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by jar, posted 02-15-2018 2:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 592 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2018 2:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 551 of 1359 (828278)
02-15-2018 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 550 by Phat
02-15-2018 1:27 PM


Re: Bible
Phat writes:

Because the singularity contains everything that is now out there...according to theory.

The singularity is not a thing, it is the point where all our understanding breaks down. It's equally likely that it had no mass.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Phat, posted 02-15-2018 1:27 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1551
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 552 of 1359 (828282)
02-15-2018 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Astrophile
02-14-2018 7:46 PM


There appear to be only two possibilities: that the age of the universe is infinite, i.e. that the universe is eternal; or that the age of the universe is finite. The fact that the Bible picked the correct one doesn't prove that it was inspired by a god, any more than predicting that a die will give a number between 1 and 3 and then getting the number 2 proves that one is supernaturally inspired.

In fairness to ICANT, I don't think the universe having a beginning was supposed to prove that God exists. He was working through verse by verse to show that none of them were false. But we got stuck on verse 1.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Astrophile, posted 02-14-2018 7:46 PM Astrophile has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1551
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 553 of 1359 (828285)
02-15-2018 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by ICANT
02-15-2018 2:56 AM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
It has a simple answer.

Either it had a beginning to exist.
OR
It has existed infinitely in the past.

Both those explanations are prima facie absurd. The universe is everything - there can not be anything before it or outside it that caused it to exist. Equally, it couldn't have come to exist from nothing; since nothing could have caused it to begin.

Equally, the universe cannot have always been here, since how then could we have got to here? An infinite amount of time would have to have passed to reach this point, and no matter how long time has been going for it cannot have reached the point of infinity.

If those of the only two explanations, then clearly no simple answer exists. Whatever the answer is it's necessarily something which does not make sense in terms of the simple everyday concepts you're using.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 2:56 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 558 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2018 5:48 AM caffeine has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 554 of 1359 (828316)
02-15-2018 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by ringo
02-15-2018 11:52 AM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

Here you have the earth spreading. Science does not claim that the earth is expanding.

Are you sure the earth did not expand from a small nucleus to what it is today.

According to science the Milky Way is not expanding. Although it had to at one time.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by ringo, posted 02-15-2018 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by ringo, posted 02-16-2018 10:43 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 555 of 1359 (828318)
02-15-2018 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 546 by ringo
02-15-2018 11:44 AM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

A shortage of evidence is not "proof" that the Big Bang is false.

A lack of those three things means the BB did not take place as has been presented here.

Why do you think cavediver made the statement that a new theory was needed.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by ringo, posted 02-15-2018 11:44 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by ringo, posted 02-16-2018 10:45 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
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