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Author Topic:   Creation
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 556 of 919 (828323)
02-15-2018 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by NoNukes
02-15-2018 9:04 AM


Re: Bible
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

No. It only means that the universe was once smaller than it is now. A series of contractions and expansions would produce the same observations.
That would mean the universe was infinite, eternal, if that took place. But is ruled out because it would have already run out of energy without an endless supply of energy.

This exchange shows exactly why you should stick to being wrong about how to diagram a sentence, and why you should leave science to the serious scientists and to the amateurs who at least make try to read up on the matter.

Let me try this and you tell me where I am wrong.

1. There is x amount of energy in the universe.
2. To do work energy is transferred from concentrated, to less concentrated, which means there is less energy to do work.
3. That means the amount of usable energy becomes less every time the energy is used.
4. When energy reaches total equilibrium there is no more usable energy to do work.
5. Therefore the universe would begin to get colder and lifeless. It is already 3 degrees K (-454 degrees), in some places.
6. That would mean the universe could not have existed infinitely in the past as it would have run out of energy and reached total equilibrium a long time ago.

Example:
The earth is not a perpetual motion machine. It requires energy from an outside source in order to stay alive. Each day concentrated energy is transferred to the Earth from the Sun. This energy keeps the Earth running and sustaining life on planet Earth. The solar energy cause our rain to fall, the wind to blow, snow to melt, and plant life to grow. Much of the energy consumed doing this work becomes less concentrated and radiates back out into the cold vastness of space.

If the sun did not replenish the solar energy daily required to recharge the Earth it would quickly become lifeless and frozen.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by NoNukes, posted 02-15-2018 9:04 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 563 by NoNukes, posted 02-17-2018 1:01 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 557 of 919 (828338)
02-16-2018 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 540 by Astrophile
02-14-2018 7:46 PM


Creation
Hi Astrophile,

Astro writes:

There appear to be only two possibilities: that the age of the universe is infinite, i.e. that the universe is eternal; or that the age of the universe is finite. The fact that the Bible picked the correct one doesn't prove that it was inspired by a god, any more than predicting that a die will give a number between 1 and 3 and then getting the number 2 proves that one is supernaturally inspired.

Also, the second possibility doesn't necessarily mean that the universe had a beginning as we understand the world, any more than the fact that the Earth's surface area is finite means that one can fall over the edge.

The Bible had recorded in it 2200 years that the heavens had a beginning to exist before Astronomer Edwin Hubble's discovered the universe was expanding.

So you want to tell me that Moses who first wrote about the heavens having a beginning to exist 3800 years before Hubble's discovery, had more education and knowledge than anyone until Hubble, came along, is that right? Where did he get that knowledge there were no books on the subject to read?

How do you propose that the universe began to exist?

Astro writes:

How long ago do you think that the beginning of the universe was? And if the universe didn't begin with the Big Bang, how do you think it began?

Glad you asked.

I really don't know when the universe began to exist. I really don't think 15 billion years as Stephen Hawking's says or other's have said 20 billion years, is enough time as we know it for everything necessary to complete the job is enough.

So I believe the universe had a beginning to exist in the beginning which was somewhere in past duration.

I believe God spoke and the universe began to exist in the first light period that when coupled to the first period of darkness declared them to be Day One in Genesis 1:5.

So you ask me how long was that light period? I don't know. But I would tend to believe it was infinite in past duration, and did not cease until God created darkness which is found in Genesis 1:2.

That light period would account for the cmbr just as easily as the BB.

Astro writes:

As I said, there are only two possibilities, an eternal universe or a universe with some sort of beginning, so the author of the first chapter of Genesis had a 50% chance of being right. However, the first chapter of Genesis also says that the Earth existed before the Sun and the stars, and that plants existed before the Sun, so I don't think that Genesis (or God's Word, if you prefer it) has a particularly good record of scientific accuracy.

Well the only way the infinite one would work would be to have an external power source.

The one beginning to exist needs a mechanism to produce that existence.

I would say the chances of Moses knowing the heavens had a beginning to exist without someone telling him would 1 in a trillion trillion.

Your theology is a little off course.

Trees existed a long time before Genesis 1:11.
The sun, moon, and stars are a part of the heavens (universe) and were created in Genesis 1:1.

Remember that light period that I said closed with the period of darkness that lasted for an unknown duration? The history of that light period is found beginning with Genesis 2:4.

Bible writes:

2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

That verse says the history of the day (God declared a period of light and a period of darkness day one. Genesis 1:5) God created the heavens and the earth is found in the following verses.

Scientist believe in evolution so they believe a little different than I do.

Before any plants of any kind. Genesis 2:5,
A mist water the ground. Genesis 2:6
God formed man from the dust of the ground. Genesis 2:7
After which God planted a garden. Genesis 2::8
Out of the ground God caused fruit, and nut trees to grow.
Genesis 2:9
God gave the man a job. Genesis 2:15
God forbid the man from eating the fruit from one specific tree Genesis 2:17
God formed animals and fowl out of the ground.
God made a woman from the rib of the man Genesis 2:22

That was the order in which God made man, animals, and fowl.

The order you find in Genesis 1:6 - 2:3 is the re-modeling of the heavens and earth. Seems the old earth had become covered with water, and was engulfed in darkness.

God Bless.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Astrophile, posted 02-14-2018 7:46 PM Astrophile has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 558 of 919 (828340)
02-16-2018 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 553 by caffeine
02-15-2018 2:57 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Hi caffeine,

caffeine writes:

Both those explanations are prima facie absurd. The universe is everything - there can not be anything before it or outside it that caused it to exist. Equally, it couldn't have come to exist from nothing; since nothing could have caused it to begin.

How do you know the universe is everything?

There is no scientific data past the singularity.

So you don't know what exists prior to singularity or how the universe began to exist.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by caffeine, posted 02-15-2018 2:57 PM caffeine has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15127
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 559 of 919 (828350)
02-16-2018 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 548 by Phat
02-15-2018 1:04 PM


Re: Bible
Phat writes:

It makes more sense to ask "What came first? God or dirt" rather than to speculate that dirt has eternally existed.


Why does that make more sense? How do you go from an unknown quantity like "God" to a sensible conclusion? Wouldn't the conclusion be more sensible if it came from only known quantities, like dirt?

Phat writes:

Critics say that one major reason that many people prefer the eternal dirt hypothesis is that dirt (matter) does not hold one accountable.


But you're the one who doesn't want to be accountable, aren't you? You want God to do it all for you.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 02-15-2018 1:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15127
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 560 of 919 (828351)
02-16-2018 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 554 by ICANT
02-15-2018 7:22 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

Are you sure the earth did not expand from a small nucleus to what it is today.


That was accretion, not expansion.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 7:22 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2018 6:31 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15127
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 561 of 919 (828352)
02-16-2018 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 555 by ICANT
02-15-2018 7:26 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ICANT writes:

A lack of those three things means the BB did not take place as has been presented here.

Why do you think cavediver made the statement that a new theory was needed.


If a new theory is needed, that is not "proof" that the old theory was "false".

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 7:26 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 562 of 919 (828379)
02-16-2018 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by ringo
02-16-2018 10:43 AM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

That was accretion, not expansion.

Whatever you call the process it got bigger. Every time in the past that I mentioned accretion everybody clamed up.

God Bless.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by ringo, posted 02-16-2018 10:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 564 by ringo, posted 02-17-2018 10:50 AM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 563 of 919 (828388)
02-17-2018 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 556 by ICANT
02-15-2018 8:36 PM


Re: Bible
Let me try this and you tell me where I am wrong.

What's wrong here is that you changed the subject from an argument that the universe is infinite in expanse to an argument about whether the universe is eternal. Now given that I am not making the latter argument, what is the point of your current discussion?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 8:36 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 566 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2018 4:42 PM NoNukes has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15127
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 564 of 919 (828404)
02-17-2018 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 562 by ICANT
02-16-2018 6:31 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

Whatever you call the process it got bigger.


But the process is completely different. The earth got larger because new matter was added to it. The expansion of the universe involves a fixed amount of matter/energy.

ICANT writes:

Every time in the past that I mentioned accretion everybody clamed up.


You never mentioned it to me. I don't clam up.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2018 6:31 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2018 2:18 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 565 of 919 (828419)
02-17-2018 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 564 by ringo
02-17-2018 10:50 AM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

But the process is completely different. The earth got larger because new matter was added to it. The expansion of the universe involves a fixed amount of matter/energy.

That in the beginning was about the size pea.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by ringo, posted 02-17-2018 10:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by ringo, posted 02-20-2018 10:49 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 566 of 919 (828428)
02-17-2018 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 563 by NoNukes
02-17-2018 1:01 AM


infinite
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

What's wrong here is that you changed the subject from an argument that the universe is infinite in expanse to an argument about whether the universe is eternal.

Well I always thought that infinite was a synonym of eternal.
Is that wrong also?

NoNukes writes:

Now given that I am not making the latter argument, what is the point of your current discussion?

In Message 545 you asked the following question below my statement:

NoNukes writes:

But is ruled out because it would have already run out of energy without an endless supply of energy.

Can I see those computations, ICANT?

So you asked for my computations.
I understood you was asking why the universe would have already run out of energy without and endless supply of energy.
So I explained why the universe would need and endless supply of energy.

Now I ask you, If the following is wrong...?

quote:
1. There is x amount of energy in the universe.
2. To do work energy is transferred from concentrated, to less concentrated, which means there is less energy to do work.
3. That means the amount of usable energy becomes less every time the energy is used.
4. When energy reaches total equilibrium there is no more usable energy to do work.
5. Therefore the universe would begin to get colder and lifeless. It is already 3 degrees K (-454 degrees), in some places.
6. That would mean the universe could not have existed infinitely in the past as it would have run out of energy and reached total equilibrium a long time ago.

To please present the correct information?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by NoNukes, posted 02-17-2018 1:01 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by NoNukes, posted 02-17-2018 7:53 PM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 567 of 919 (828439)
02-17-2018 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 566 by ICANT
02-17-2018 4:42 PM


Re: infinite
Well I always thought that infinite was a synonym of eternal.
Is that wrong also?

In general, yes. In this case in particular, "infinite in expanse" would refer to size rather than duration.

To please present the correct information?

Remember that time I spent a week trying to teach you about special relativity? I'm not going through that again. Watching you get science wrong is a lot more fun.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2018 4:42 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 568 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2018 12:04 AM NoNukes has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 568 of 919 (828473)
02-19-2018 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 567 by NoNukes
02-17-2018 7:53 PM


Re: infinite
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

In general, yes. In this case in particular, "infinite in expanse" would refer to size rather than duration.

So I am correct that infinite is a synonym of eternal.

Eternal is not a synonym of infinite.

Eternal: existing forever; without end or without beginning.
synonyms: everlasting, never-ending, endless, perpetual, undying, immortal; enduring, infinite, boundless, timeless;

Infinite: limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
synonyms: boundless, unbounded, unlimited, limitless, never-ending, interminable;

Now what was wrong with my statement I made to ringo?
Here is ringo's statement followed by my statement.

Message 566

ringo writes:

No. It only means that the universe was once smaller than it is now. A series of contractions and expansions would produce the same observations.

ringo is telling me that the universe contracted and expanded a series of times.

ICANT writes:

That would mean the universe was infinite, eternal, if that took place. But is ruled out because it would have already run out of energy without an endless supply of energy.

I still don't see where you get 'infinite expanse'.

ringo's statement requires the universe to be eternal.
The universe could not have existed infinitely, or eternally in the past as it would have run out of energy and reached total equilibrium a long time ago.
Unless energy was added as needed.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 567 by NoNukes, posted 02-17-2018 7:53 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 569 by NoNukes, posted 02-19-2018 2:38 AM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 569 of 919 (828476)
02-19-2018 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 568 by ICANT
02-19-2018 12:04 AM


Re: infinite
So I am correct that infinite is a synonym of eternal.

ICANT, I said the exact opposite of that. Infinite and eternal are not synonyms Infinite can refer to many things that are not time such as space, money, and an inability to grasp simple concepts. Your ability to not see a point appears to be nigh infinite.

I don't plan to go through a set of four or five corrections before coming to the conclusion that you are lying again, but no, you are not correct and I did not agree with you.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2018 12:04 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2018 1:51 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 582 by DrJones*, posted 02-20-2018 5:45 PM NoNukes has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 9 days)
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 570 of 919 (828482)
02-19-2018 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by NoNukes
02-19-2018 2:38 AM


Re: infinite
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

ICANT, I said the exact opposite of that. Infinite and eternal are not synonyms Infinite can refer to many things that are not time such as space, money, and an inability to grasp simple concepts. Your ability to not see a point appears to be nigh infinite.

In Message 567 you said:

NoNukes writes:

In general, yes. In this case in particular, "infinite in expanse" would refer to size rather than duration.

In General yes. In particular infinite in expanse would refer to size.
I don't remember where I was talking to ringo about an expanse.

But back to the question I asked.

quote:
Well I always thought that infinite was a synonym of eternal.
Is that wrong also?
Message 566

Question:

Is infinite a synonym of eternal?

Answer:

Eternal
adjective
meaning: lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

synonyms: everlasting, never-ending, endless, perpetual, undying, immortal, abiding, permanent, enduring infinite, boundless, timeless;
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=dw6LWofXGZC2jw...

English Oxford dictionary
Eternal: adj. meaning: 1. Lasting or existing forever; without end.
synonyms: everlasting, never-ending, endless, without end, perpetual, undying, immortal, deathless, indestructible, imperishable, immutable, abiding, permanent, enduring, infinite, boundless, timeless
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/thesaurus/eternal

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by NoNukes, posted 02-19-2018 2:38 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 571 by NoNukes, posted 02-19-2018 6:20 PM ICANT has responded

    
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