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Author Topic:   Creation
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 586 of 919 (828595)
02-21-2018 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by DrJones*
02-20-2018 6:53 PM


Re: infinite
Hi dr,

dr writes:

"what is the smallest positive non zero number"

That is a simple question and easy to answer.

There is no smallest positive number.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by DrJones*, posted 02-20-2018 6:53 PM DrJones* has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14636
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 587 of 919 (828599)
02-21-2018 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by ICANT
02-20-2018 3:36 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

But the Bible does say it was stretched out it doesn't say how.


You quoted Job, where it says "spread", not stretched. As I've already pointed out, when you spread butter you don't increase the volume.

You quoted Isaiah, where it says the heavens were stretched out "like a curtain". When you stretch out a curtain, it doesn't get bigger. Only it's shape changes, like spreading butter.

So no, the Bible doesn't say the universe expanded.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2018 3:36 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2018 1:10 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 588 of 919 (828600)
02-21-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by NoNukes
02-20-2018 6:47 PM


Re: infinite
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

Apparently, you care, ICANT. For some reason, you are always asking me if you have the science or math right whenever you post some clearly wrong stuff that remotely resembles science. Perhaps you should not ask if you don't really want an answer.

I respect your answers to scientific questions.

But when I ask you if Oxford English Dictionary claims that infinite is a synonym for eternal and you go into a rant like you did I might say things like who cares what you think.

The simple answer to the question was yes, but you ranted on for several posts.

Here is what the Oxford English Dictionary says:

quote:
eternal
adjective
1Lasting or existing forever; without end.

Synonyms
everlasting, never-ending, endless, without end
perpetual, undying, immortal, deathless, indestructible,
imperishable, immutable, abiding, permanent, enduring,
infinite, boundless, timeless



https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/eternal

I enlarged infinite in the list of synonyms.
As you can see the Oxford English Dictionary lists infinite as a synonym, in the synonyms of eternal.

The correct answer would have been 'yes'.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by NoNukes, posted 02-20-2018 6:47 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by caffeine, posted 02-21-2018 3:33 PM ICANT has responded

    
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1432
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 589 of 919 (828606)
02-21-2018 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 588 by ICANT
02-21-2018 2:36 PM


Re: infinite
Why in the name of the God is this conversation continuing? The purpose of words is to communicate ideas. Words don't have a 'real' meaning, and when you've started arguing about what the 'real' meaning is you've stopped having a meaningful conversation. When there's a dispute about the meaning of words, the solution is to figure out what ideas people were trying to express. Let's go back to post 563. NoNukes said:

quote:
What's wrong here is that you changed the subject from an argument that the universe is infinite in expanse to an argument about whether the universe is eternal. Now given that I am not making the latter argument, what is the point of your current discussion?

Let's pretend that ICANT replied:

quote:
By 'infinite' in this context I meant 'infinitely old', not 'infinite in expanse'

and we can pretend the last 25 posts never happened, assuming anyone has anything of substance to say.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 588 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2018 2:36 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 590 by ICANT, posted 02-22-2018 5:31 PM caffeine has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 590 of 919 (828711)
02-22-2018 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by caffeine
02-21-2018 3:33 PM


Re: infinite
Hi caffeine,

caffeine writes:

Let's pretend that ICANT replied:

quote:
By 'infinite' in this context I meant 'infinitely old', not 'infinite in expanse'

But I do not believe there is a difference in infinitely old and infinite in expanse.

As I have said many time I believe the universe has always existed just not in the form we see it today.

I believe the universe is infinite in every direction, that means in duration and size. The universe may change from point A to point B. But it never ceases to exist,

But are you saying if I had used the word infinitely instead of infinite I would have been correct.

Well here is the definition of infinitely.

quote:
in-fi-nite-ly
adverb
to an infinite extent or amount; without limit.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by caffeine, posted 02-21-2018 3:33 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by caffeine, posted 03-20-2018 4:39 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 591 of 919 (828746)
02-23-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 587 by ringo
02-21-2018 2:32 PM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

You quoted Job, where it says "spread", not stretched. As I've already pointed out, when you spread butter you don't increase the volume.
You quoted Isaiah, where it says the heavens were stretched out "like a curtain". When you stretch out a curtain, it doesn't get bigger. Only it's shape changes, like spreading butter.

The very same word translated streached, and spread in these two
verses are used in the following verse.

quote:
Genesis 33:19 And he bought a parcel of a field, where he had spread his tent, at the hand of the children of Hamor, Shechem's father, for an hundred pieces of money.

It is used several times in the bible concerning a tent.

Those people had a hard time living in those tents if they were spread like butter on a piece of bread.

For them to live in the tent it had to be expanded it by stretching it out.

ringo writes:

So no, the Bible doesn't say the universe expanded.

So yes it says it was stretched or spread which equals expanded.

Unless you want to say those people stretched out their tents on the ground and slept on top of them.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by ringo, posted 02-21-2018 2:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by ringo, posted 02-24-2018 11:11 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 592 of 919 (828747)
02-23-2018 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 550 by Phat
02-15-2018 1:27 PM


Re: Bible
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

Because the singularity contains everything that is now out there...according to theory. Why would the mass change?
Or perhaps I am confusing mass with weight or volume.

As jar said singularity is not a thing.

In fact singularity equals non existence as all math's break down and General Relativity does not work and can not tell us anything about what did or did not exist at T=0.

That is the reason the only scientific answer for what existed at T-0 is "we don't know".

Therefore, due to the fact science has no facts extending to T=0 anything that is proposed to exist such as multiverses or branes or the existence of anything of matter or energy is not scientific but assumptions made by mankind.

Since the detractors seem to have deserted the thread I will continue with the discussion concerning creation.

So let me start this post with some things that can be found in earlier posts.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This is a declarative statement of completed action by the subject of the verb. Being a declarative statement it is a complete sentence.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

This scripture declares itself to be the history of the day in which God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the day one.
Period of light equals a day.
Period of light with an evening followed by a period of darkness that ended with the following morning God declared as day one.

A light period is God's definition of a day. Regardless of the duration of that light period.

Phat if you have any questions concerning these statements I would like to try to answer them before I go any further.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Phat, posted 02-15-2018 1:27 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14636
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


(2)
Message 593 of 919 (828797)
02-24-2018 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 591 by ICANT
02-23-2018 1:10 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

Those people had a hard time living in those tents if they were spread like butter on a piece of bread.


Think it through. That's exactly how tents are spread. They go from a small, folded package to a large, flat surface - but the volume of the fabric doesn't change.

ICANT writes:

For them to live in the tent it had to be expanded it by stretching it out.


Again, "stretching out" the fabric does not mean that the fabric expanded. To be analogous with the expansion of space, the threads in the fabric would have to get farther apart. You'd have a tent full of holes.

So no, the Bible does not talk about expansion in the same way that scientists do.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2018 1:10 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 594 by ICANT, posted 03-05-2018 11:30 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 594 of 919 (829317)
03-05-2018 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by ringo
02-24-2018 11:11 AM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo

ringo writes:

Think it through. That's exactly how tents are spread. They go from a small, folded package to a large, flat surface - but the volume of the fabric doesn't change.

Have you ever been camping?

What would you have tent dwellers do? Spread the tent on the ground and then put their bedrolls on top of it and lay under the sky?

Go to your local sports store and check out their tent they have set up and then get back to me.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by ringo, posted 02-24-2018 11:11 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 595 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 12:05 PM ICANT has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14636
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 595 of 919 (829358)
03-06-2018 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 594 by ICANT
03-05-2018 11:30 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

What would you have tent dwellers do? Spread the tent on the ground and then put their bedrolls on top of it and lay under the sky?


We're talking about the tent itself, not the volume that it encloses. A tent unfolds to a specific size and doesn't get any bigger. That's the difference between spreading and expansion.

As I said, if a tent was expanding like the universe, the spaces between the threads would get bigger, giving you a tent full of holes. I don't have to go to a sports store to know I wouldn't buy that tent.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by ICANT, posted 03-05-2018 11:30 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 596 by jar, posted 03-06-2018 12:12 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 597 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 3:07 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30409
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 596 of 919 (829361)
03-06-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by ringo
03-06-2018 12:05 PM


Re: Bible
Didn't you watch Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire or ever look inside the Tardis?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 12:05 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 597 of 919 (829401)
03-06-2018 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by ringo
03-06-2018 12:05 PM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

As I said, if a tent was expanding like the universe, the spaces between the threads would get bigger, giving you a tent full of holes. I don't have to go to a sports store to know I wouldn't buy that tent.

That spread out 10' x 10' tent that is laying on the ground will expand to a volume around 700 cubic feet.

Moses did not have a word that could have been translated as expand or expansion.

He probably experienced his stomach expanding as he ate a meal but he thought he was just getting full.

If you ever decide you want to know what the Hebrew text says you will have to quit thinking the way you do and begin to think like you would if you lived 3000 years ago. Until then you will remain clueless.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 12:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 598 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2018 7:35 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 03-07-2018 2:19 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 608 by Astrophile, posted 03-12-2018 4:16 PM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10695
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 598 of 919 (829411)
03-06-2018 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by ICANT
03-06-2018 3:07 PM


Re: Bible
Moses did not have a word that could have been translated as expand or expansion.

Was he able to express the concept without having a word? Was he familiar with everyday things that he had to see growing and expanding if he was paying even the slightest bit of attention?

In short, what is the point of making arguments of this type?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 3:07 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 10:45 PM NoNukes has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 599 of 919 (829428)
03-06-2018 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by NoNukes
03-06-2018 7:35 PM


Re: Bible
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

In short, what is the point of making arguments of this type?

The point was that Moses used the best word he had to describe what he was trying to say.

He knew he could spread his tent out on the ground and then get inside and raise it up, or he could put poles up and spread it over the poles to form his tent in which he could get in and be out of the weather and especially the rain.

If he just spread it out on the ground and made his bed on top of it he would have got wet if it rained.

He said spread out like a tent not like a bed sheet as ringo wants it to be spread out.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2018 7:35 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2018 10:52 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10695
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 600 of 919 (829429)
03-06-2018 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 599 by ICANT
03-06-2018 10:45 PM


Re: Bible
The point was that Moses used the best word he had to describe what he was trying to say.

He knew he could spread his tent out on the ground and then get inside and raise it up, or he could put poles up and spread it over the poles to form his tent in which he could get in and be out of the weather and especially the rain.

Moses would not be restricted to using a single word to communicate with. He did not have to use a tent as the example if he wanted to describe something that was not tent-like.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 10:45 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by jar, posted 03-07-2018 6:55 AM NoNukes has responded

    
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