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Author Topic:   Creation
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1435
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 616 of 919 (830064)
03-20-2018 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 590 by ICANT
02-22-2018 5:31 PM


Re: infinite
quote:By 'infinite' in this context I meant 'infinitely old', not 'infinite in expanse'

But I do not believe there is a difference in infinitely old and infinite in expanse.

As I have said many time I believe the universe has always existed just not in the form we see it today.

I believe the universe is infinite in every direction, that means in duration and size. The universe may change from point A to point B. But it never ceases to exist,

I retract my previous statement; as apparently NoNukes was correct. You were changing the subject from an argument that the universe is infinite in expanse to eternal.

No problem if you believe both of the above, but you can see that they are different, no?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 590 by ICANT, posted 02-22-2018 5:31 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by NoNukes, posted 03-22-2018 4:27 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 617 of 919 (830106)
03-21-2018 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by ICANT
03-20-2018 3:18 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

You can't unfold or unroll a tent without spreading it out.


But it isn't the same kind of "spreading" as expansion.

ICANT writes:

All the pictures I see and descriptions given have the universe beginning at a point and then expanding in a forward direction from that point.


You're misunderstanding those pictures. The "forward direction" is the time axis. The universe is expanding in three dimensions - a sphere, not a circle. The pictures are attempting to show four dimensions in two dimensions.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by ICANT, posted 03-20-2018 3:18 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by ICANT, posted 03-30-2018 2:45 AM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10739
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 618 of 919 (830153)
03-22-2018 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 616 by caffeine
03-20-2018 4:39 PM


Re: infinite
I retract my previous statement; as apparently NoNukes was correct. You were changing the subject from an argument that the universe is infinite in expanse to eternal.

I appreciate the retraction, but you were more right than wrong. I spent way too much time arguing with ICANT over that issue. ICANT's style of presentation is what it is. Getting irritated at his antics is pointless. And for what it's worth, scientists do not claim that the universe is either eternal or infinite. Accordingly, his argument is baseless.

When you wrestle with a pig, two things happen. You get all muddy, and the pig likes it.

Edited by NoNukes, : add some clarification about infinity


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by caffeine, posted 03-20-2018 4:39 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 619 of 919 (830456)
03-30-2018 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by ringo
03-21-2018 3:18 PM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

You're misunderstanding those pictures. The "forward direction" is the time axis. The universe is expanding in three dimensions - a sphere, not a circle. The pictures are attempting to show four dimensions in two dimensions.

What is the mechanism that would cause the universe to expand in a forward direction.

The universe according to the BBT existed in a very, very, very small infinite volume at a very hot dense state. Since space is said to have increased between each of the quarks what would be the mechanism that would keep it from expanding into a sphere which is a perfectly round geometrical object?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by ringo, posted 03-21-2018 3:18 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by Phat, posted 03-30-2018 3:30 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 626 by ringo, posted 03-31-2018 12:17 PM ICANT has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10883
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 620 of 919 (830461)
03-30-2018 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by ICANT
03-30-2018 2:45 AM


Re: Bible
it seems the pictures cant describe the actual expansion theorized as they are not 3-dimensional diagrams, time being the 4th dimension. Or am I misunderstanding the argument? It appears to me that the universe was "created" in time. The mechanism in my mind would have to be whatever it was that created this universe.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by ICANT, posted 03-30-2018 2:45 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by jar, posted 03-30-2018 3:36 PM Phat has responded
 Message 627 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 1:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30505
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 621 of 919 (830462)
03-30-2018 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by Phat
03-30-2018 3:30 PM


Re: Bible
Phat writes:

The mechanism in my mind would have to be whatever it was that created this universe.

Why does there have to be something that created this universe?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by Phat, posted 03-30-2018 3:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by Phat, posted 03-30-2018 4:52 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10883
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 622 of 919 (830463)
03-30-2018 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by jar
03-30-2018 3:36 PM


Re: Bible
I suppose human imagination and interpretation of logic, reason, and reality would be all we really have.... which is unsatisfactory in my mind

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by jar, posted 03-30-2018 3:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 623 by jar, posted 03-30-2018 5:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 624 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2018 2:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30505
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 623 of 919 (830467)
03-30-2018 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 622 by Phat
03-30-2018 4:52 PM


Re: Bible
Phat writes:

I suppose human imagination and interpretation of logic, reason, and reality would be all we really have.... which is unsatisfactory in my mind

But reality does not depend on what we consider to be satisfactory.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by Phat, posted 03-30-2018 4:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5869
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 624 of 919 (830474)
03-31-2018 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 622 by Phat
03-30-2018 4:52 PM


Re: Bible
Phat writes:

I suppose human imagination and interpretation of logic, reason, and reality would be all we really have.... which is unsatisfactory in my mind

Which is why you - and others like you - have all this magical thinking, from your religious beliefs through to your gambling, diets and medicines. You're searching for magic and it doesn't exist. Accepting what we have for what it is, would solve all your problems at a stroke.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by Phat, posted 03-30-2018 4:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by Faith, posted 03-31-2018 6:05 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 628 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 1:12 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 28891
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 625 of 919 (830475)
03-31-2018 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 624 by Tangle
03-31-2018 2:49 AM


Re: BibleO
Oh screaming nonsense.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2018 2:49 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14774
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 626 of 919 (830491)
03-31-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by ICANT
03-30-2018 2:45 AM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

What is the mechanism that would cause the universe to expand in a forward direction.


As I said, it is not expanding in a "forward direction". You're misunderstanding the pictures.

ICANT writes:

Since space is said to have increased between each of the quarks what would be the mechanism that would keep it from expanding into a sphere which is a perfectly round geometrical object?


That is what the pictures are meant to show. What you see as a "forward direction" is time.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by ICANT, posted 03-30-2018 2:45 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 1:29 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 627 of 919 (830537)
04-02-2018 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by Phat
03-30-2018 3:30 PM


Re: Bible
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

it seems the pictures cant describe the actual expansion theorized as they are not 3-dimensional diagrams, time being the 4th dimension. Or am I misunderstanding the argument? It appears to me that the universe was "created" in time. The mechanism in my mind would have to be whatever it was that created this universe.

You do know that all the pictures are nothing more than the imagination of someone as there was no one there to observe what took place. Neither can what took place be observed in a lab.
Therefore everything concerning the early universe is based on assumptions.

I can find no one who can tell me what time is. Neither can they tell me how to measure time. If you don't know what time is you can't tell me how it is measured. If it can't be measured, how can it be a dimension?

According to the BBT time is a dimension of the universe therefore the universe was not created in time.

Time according to Hawking is imaginary time that goes in a vertical direction. It seems this assumption was made so the universe could have a beginning to exist.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by Phat, posted 03-30-2018 3:30 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 654 by Modulous, posted 04-06-2018 7:13 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 628 of 919 (830538)
04-02-2018 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 624 by Tangle
03-31-2018 2:49 AM


Re: Bible
Hi Tangle

Tangle writes:

Accepting what we have for what it is, would solve all your problems at a stroke.

All you have are assumptions unless you have some scientific facts that I have not been able to find.

If you have the scientific facts about how the universe began to exist please present them for consideration.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2018 2:49 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by Tangle, posted 04-02-2018 1:43 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 629 of 919 (830539)
04-02-2018 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 626 by ringo
03-31-2018 12:17 PM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo

ringo writes:

As I said, it is not expanding in a "forward direction". You're misunderstanding the pictures.

No I am not misunderstanding the pictures. It actually shows the universe expanding in a forward direction.

It does not show the universe expanding in every direction at the same time.

ringo writes:

That is what the pictures are meant to show. What you see as a "forward direction" is time.

But the universe is not expanding in a time related forward direction.

It is a sphere expanding in every possible direction simultaneously.

Therefore it should look like a sphere.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by ringo, posted 03-31-2018 12:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 631 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-02-2018 2:36 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 639 by ringo, posted 04-03-2018 12:25 PM ICANT has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5869
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 630 of 919 (830540)
04-02-2018 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by ICANT
04-02-2018 1:12 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

All you have are assumptions unless you have some scientific facts that I have not been able to find.

Science could present you with gold plated proof but you would still claim it false - because of what you believe.

What we actually have is a large body of consilient evidence over multiple disciplines about how we think things work.

If you have the scientific facts about how the universe began to exist please present them for consideration.

What we know and what we hypothesise about how the universe began is all available for anyone with the education and the mind to grasp it. That excludes both you and I.

But it's not necessary to know everything about the universe to know beyond all doubt that the superstitious beliefs of primitive peopls can be put aside for what they are.

God Bless

Don't waste your bandwith on me, save it for the ignorant.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 1:12 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 6:35 PM Tangle has responded

  
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