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Author Topic:   Creation
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1726
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 646 of 1073 (830649)
04-04-2018 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by ICANT
04-02-2018 8:42 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

I will give an illustration using 4 quarks only. We start with 4 quarks at T=0 The single point that all the universe is crammed into something the size of a pin point.

How do you know there were 4 quarks at T=0? What kind of quarks? Can you describe all the properties of the quarks?

ICANT writes:

These 4 quarks begin to leave the pin point all going in a direction like a plus sign, at the speed of light. 10 minutes later they would be a long ways apart.

Why do these 4 quarks leave the pinpoint? What the heck is a direction like a plus sign? Why are they going at the speed of light? How did you measure 10 minutes?

ICANT writes:

Now add all the other trillion trillion trillion trillions of quarks all heading in a different direction.

Wait, I thought there were only 4 quarks. Where did you get a trillion trillion trillion trillions of quarks? Why are they all heading in a different direction than the 4 quarks?

What does any of this have to do with the picture?

ICANT writes:

Did time exist in only the direction of 1 quark?

How many directions are there? Can 2 quarks travel in the same direction?

ICANT writes:

Just maybe time is not a dimension and is only a concept devised by mankind to measure duration between events.

Maybe time is a feature of the Universe and mankind discovered that it can be used to measure the duration of events, just like we discovered that the speed of light can be used, with time, to measure distance in the 3 spacial dimensions. I know it scares you, but we have to use math.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 8:42 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 5:29 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 647 of 1073 (830765)
04-06-2018 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by Tangle
04-04-2018 3:21 PM


Re: Bible
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Cobblers. Before I existed the atoms I was made of existed and after I cease to exist my atoms will exist. My atoms were there before and will be there after. The concept of no universe is the concept of something rather than nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not just empty space but not even the idea of space. Nothing. Nothing is not something we can deal with with language.

Your atoms existed before you were born, Yes.
Did the atoms you are formed from exist eternally in the past? OR
Did they begin to exist 13.7 billion years ago when the universe began to exist?

The atoms that compose you may or may not exist eternally into the future.

But the question why is there something rather than nothing, has been pondered for a long time.

Non-existence, absolutely nothing, and nothing represent the same thing. Nothing is a compound word of 'No Thing". The meaning of which is exactly that. It would cover everything you can think of that exists today not existing.. It is no problem to deal with except we will not accept the possibility of 'No Thing'.

Tangle writes:

And that's where your hopelessly lost aren't you? Like almost everyone on the planet you are unable to think beyond the mundane properties of what you physically experience and apply that parochial experince to stuff that is way, way beyond it.

The problem is you can't accept that there is 'No Thing" outside of the universe for it to expand into.

I am not the one who believes everything is contained in the universe in which we live.

I believe that there is a infinite third heaven (universe if you prefer) in which God created our heavens and earth. So our universe could expand as much as God wanted it to expand.

Tangle writes:

I note that you didn't contradict my claim that you have no education in either maths or physics that would give you the right of an opinion and at least a partial chance of discussing this subject with those that have.

My extent in math was calculus 60 years ago. I know that numbers do not lie. But I also know that man can make numbers say what he wants them to say. Einstein's biggest blunder proves that numbers will say what you want them to..

All the physics I have studied has been in the last 10 years.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Tangle, posted 04-04-2018 3:21 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 648 by Tangle, posted 04-06-2018 2:59 PM ICANT has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6179
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 648 of 1073 (830766)
04-06-2018 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 647 by ICANT
04-06-2018 2:47 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

I believe that there is a infinite third heaven (universe if you prefer) in which God created our heavens and earth. So our universe could expand as much as God wanted it to expand.

You're at liberty to believe anything at all. But what you believe about your magical being is not relevant to science's current state of knowledge of the universe.

My extent in math was calculus 60 years ago. I know that numbers do not lie. But I also know that man can make numbers say what he wants them to say. Einstein's biggest blunder proves that numbers will say what you want them to..

All the physics I have studied has been in the last 10 years.

So your maths is about the level of a 16 year old and you have no formal education at all in physics, yet you think you can challenge the greatest thinkers in their field - Nobel Prize size accademics. You believers have an ego the size of a planet.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 2:47 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 5:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 649 of 1073 (830767)
04-06-2018 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by ringo
04-04-2018 3:39 PM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:


Time doesn't "travel", literally. It has no "direction", literally.

Then why did you say in Message 626

quote:
That is what the pictures are meant to show. What you see as a "forward direction" is time.

ringo writes:

That just means that time can't be "rewound". What has happened can not un-happen.

Time can be rewound. Time is a concept invented by mankind to to measure duration between events in eternity. Time is not a dimension.

You can measure length, height, and width which are dimensions.

How do you measure time if it is a dimension?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by ringo, posted 04-04-2018 3:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 653 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-06-2018 6:07 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 655 by ringo, posted 04-07-2018 12:12 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 650 of 1073 (830768)
04-06-2018 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 646 by Tanypteryx
04-04-2018 4:01 PM


Re: Bible
Hi Tanypteryx

Tanypteryx writes:

Wait, I thought there were only 4 quarks. Where did you get a trillion trillion trillion trillions of quarks? Why are they all heading in a different direction than the 4 quarks?

What does any of this have to do with the picture?

I used 4 for just an illustration for direction only. So you could understand that the quarks were going in different direction not as in the picture.

Then I added all the other quarks going in different directions.

Since space between objects in the universe is what is supposed to have been expanding That would mean that space would have been expanding between every quark and noting would have ever existed in the universe.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-04-2018 4:01 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 651 of 1073 (830769)
04-06-2018 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by Tangle
04-06-2018 2:59 PM


Re: Bible
Hi Tangle

Tangle writes:

You're at liberty to believe anything at all. But what you believe about your magical being is not relevant to science's current state of knowledge of the universe.

You mean to tell me there are no scientist that are proposing multiverses?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by Tangle, posted 04-06-2018 2:59 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 652 by Tangle, posted 04-06-2018 6:05 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6179
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 652 of 1073 (830770)
04-06-2018 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 651 by ICANT
04-06-2018 5:34 PM


Re: Bible
You're a blithering idiot.

God bless and goodbye.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 651 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 5:34 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1726
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 653 of 1073 (830771)
04-06-2018 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by ICANT
04-06-2018 4:49 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

Time can be rewound. Time is a concept invented by mankind to to measure duration between events in eternity. Time is not a dimension.

Can you give an example of time being rewound?

Time is a feature of the Universe "discovered by humans." We ""invented" a way to measure the duration between events. I have no idea why you added "in eternity."

ICANT writes:

You can measure length, height, and width which are dimensions.

How do you measure time if it is a dimension?

We measure all 4 of these things with artificial scales that we invented, i.e. millimeters, meters, kilometers, days, hours, minutes, seconds.

So, are length, height, and width always the same directions or does it depend on their orientation relative to the observer? Is a direction in between say, length and height another dimension.

Why is it important to you that time not be a dimension?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 4:49 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2018 2:33 AM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 25 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 654 of 1073 (830772)
04-06-2018 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by ICANT
04-02-2018 1:06 PM


Re: Bible
You do know that all the pictures are nothing more than the imagination of someone as there was no one there to observe what took place.

Like Genesis. Only Genesis is not based on physics that predicts the paths of planets, satellites and light.

Therefore everything concerning the early universe is based on assumptions.

Assumptions which, if true, predict the existence of things we've seen, phenomena we have observed, anomalies we could not otherwise explain.

I can find no one who can tell me what time is.

Time is a dimension. Like all dimensions it measures a distance between two events.

Neither can they tell me how to measure time.

With a clock.

Time according to Hawking is imaginary time that goes in a vertical direction.

No. Time is time. In the early universe the geometry of time is, according to Hawking's notion, describable using complex mathematics - ie., imaginary numbers. This notion essentially resolves the singularity problem by 'smoothing' it out.

It's an interesting solution, but it isn't considered Truth. It predicts things we see, and other things we have not seen. We may observe those other predictions one day which would strengthen the idea.

It seems this assumption was made so the universe could have a beginning to exist.

Quite the opposite, it kind of makes the idea of a beginning to exist more incoherent. As you go further 'back' in time, time itself becomes increasingly space-like. That is, it takes on the properties closer to space than time - thus the notion of a beginning becomes less clear.

No I am not misunderstanding the pictures. It actually shows the universe expanding in a forward direction.

It does not show the universe expanding in every direction at the same time.

It's a diagram. 'Forwards' is time. Up and down (and depending on the diagram in and out) represent the three spatial dimensions. Thus as you proceed forwards in time, the diagram shows space expanding in all directions.

But the universe is not expanding in a time related forward direction.

It is a sphere expanding in every possible direction simultaneously.

You can make a diagram which shows the different rates of expansion of the sphere over time, using only a sphere, if you'd like. But I'd wager it'd be more difficult to understand. I can't even imagine how you'd do it.

A sphere on its own would, at best, describe the universe at a single point in time.

If you like, think of the diagram as a graph with time along the x-axis and the diameter of the sphere on the y-axis.

Science presently has to teach we don't know how the universe began to exist. It did not exist but it does exist today.

That's not what science teaches. It does not teach the universe did not exist. That may be true, but in any given theory where it is, there is something other than the universe that gives rise to the universe.

This decayed matter is what produced all the oil, natural gas and coal that is found buried in the earth.

I have searched for the scientific explanation for the oil without finding any satisfactory results.

You just said it. Biological matter of deceased animals explains the oil.

It would really help to know how it began to exist. That would give you a basis to build on to form an intelligent avenue to explore.

It's early conditions and its conditions today are the basis we have and upon which scientists are intelligently exploring avenues for the universe's earliest moments - and before that if such a thing exists.

Hawking's instanton will not work as it would require a vacuum to exist in which it could pop into existence. But if there was non existence it could not happen.

Two branes banging together and producing the universe has the same problem.

Unless braneworld is in some fashion, eternal.

cavediver told me the universe just is. Great thought, but where did it come from?

If it just is, it didn't come from - it just is.

Since the universe is said to be a self contained unit and there is no outside of the universe the only way it could begin to exist is by beginning to exist from non existence which would be an impossibility.

Or it didn't begin to exist. It just exists.

These 4 quarks begin to leave the pin point all going in a direction like a plus sign, at the speed of light. 10 minutes later they would be a long ways apart.

Now are you telling me that only one of those quarks is traveling in the straight line of time. Making the other 3 not experience duration.
Now add all the other trillion trillion trillion trillions of quarks all heading in a different direction.

No. They are all travelling through time and space.

Just maybe time is not a dimension and is only a concept devised by mankind to measure duration between events.

just as mankind invented length to measure distance between points?

I only know if the BBT is correct the universe has to be a sphere that is expanding in every possible direction simultaneously.

It could be different shapes - but a sphere is a reasonable one. Your objections are akin to someone looking at map of the world and arguing it isn't a sphere and thus trying to say that cartogrophers think it is impossible to pass down from Britain and come up in Australia. It's a two dimensional projection of a sphere.

Time has to advance in every possible direction simultaneously.

It is one dimension. So there is only two possible directions. Just like when considering length. It doesn't have to advance in both directions.

Sir Roger Penrose one of todays most well-respected physicist says that cosmic inflation is a "fantasy"

His alternative is just multiple big bang expansion events with the one we talk about today being the most recent. It's not a well-respected idea regardless of people's opinions of Penrose.

If "forward direction" is meaningless, why is it that quite often we have:
_______________________________________________> arrow of time?

That's a great question! Generally speaking physicists tend to answer by pointing to the necessary directionality of thermodynamics and entropy. But a full discussion is beyond the scope of this, apparently a 'bible' topic.

But since space is supposed to only exist inside of the universe there is nothing outside the universe to expand into.

Yes. It isn't expanding into anything.

If the universe is expanding it is expanding into space that is outside the universe and is unlimited in volume.

No, that doesn't follow from anything we know.

The problem is you can't accept that there is 'No Thing" outside of the universe for it to expand into.

I, for one, practically insist upon it!

I believe that there is a infinite third heaven (universe if you prefer) in which God created our heavens and earth. So our universe could expand as much as God wanted it to expand.

Naturally you do. There's less basis for that belief than cosmology of course. Just an anonymous author from over two millennia ago.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 1:06 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 660 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2018 3:55 PM Modulous has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15400
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 655 of 1073 (830787)
04-07-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by ICANT
04-06-2018 4:49 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

ringo writes:

Time doesn't "travel", literally. It has no "direction", literally.


Then why did you say in Message 626
quote:
That is what the pictures are meant to show. What you see as a "forward direction" is time.

I said, or tried to say, that what you were seeing as a direction is in fact a dimension, the fourth dimension, time. Granted, it is difficult to portray and/or visualize four dimensions in a two-dimensional drawing, which is why people are trying to explain it to you. But it seems that you're not only misunderstanding the drawing; you're trying to deny the science behind it.

ICANT writes:

Time can be rewound. Time is a concept invented by mankind to to measure duration between events in eternity. Time is not a dimension.

You can measure length, height, and width which are dimensions.

How do you measure time if it is a dimension?


Ever hear of a clock? Ever see a clock go backwards?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 4:49 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 657 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2018 3:11 AM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 656 of 1073 (831847)
04-25-2018 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 653 by Tanypteryx
04-06-2018 6:07 PM


Re: Bible
Hi Tanypteryx,

Tanypteryx writes:

Can you give an example of time being rewound?

The Twin Paradox rewinds it for one twin. Because it is said the closer you get to the speed of light the slower times goes and when you go faster than the speed of light you will go back in time.

But then I may be misunderstanding those statements that have been made on this site.

Tanypteryx writes:

Time is a feature of the Universe "discovered by humans." We ""invented" a way to measure the duration between events. I have no idea why you added "in eternity."

If time is a feature of the universe explain exactly what it is.

How do you measure duration between events? A stop watch, clocks of different kinds. Those clocks, however they are tuned are based upon the rotation of the earth in relation to the sun.

Existence has to be eternal as existence could not have a beginning to exist from non-existence. Existence has duration between events continually.

Tanypteryx writes:

We measure all 4 of these things with artificial scales that we invented, i.e. millimeters, meters, kilometers, days, hours, minutes, seconds.

Why did you add days, hours, minutes, and seconds in that sentence?

A period of light is called a day.
A period of light and a period of darkness is called a day.
The light, and dark periods are controlled by the revolutions of the earth in relation to the sun.
Mankind divided that light period and dark period into 24 hours, of 60 minutes each, with 60 seconds each.

So my question is what exactly is the dimension you call time?

Tanypteryx writes:

So, are length, height, and width always the same directions or does it depend on their orientation relative to the observer?

If you take a 2 x 4 that is 96" long the 96" measurement will always be the same as will the 2" and 4" measurements.

You can change the orientation relative to yourself but the measurements will not change. But if you put the board in a wall the height is 96".lengths is 2" and width is 4".

If you put it down for a plate it will be 2" in height, 4" in width, and 96" in length.

Tanypteryx writes:

Is a direction in between say, length and height another dimension.

No.

Tanypteryx writes:

Why is it important to you that time not be a dimension?

It makes no difference to me what time is.

But if time is a dimension you or at least someone should be able to tell me exactly what that dimension is.

No one has a problem with explaining what length, height, and width are as a dimension.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-06-2018 6:07 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 664 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-28-2018 1:36 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 657 of 1073 (831848)
04-25-2018 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 655 by ringo
04-07-2018 12:12 PM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

. Granted, it is difficult to portray and/or visualize four dimensions in a two-dimensional drawing,

I don't have any problem with drawing a 3d picture as I drew thousands of cabinets in 3d.

Could you explain to me how it would be possible to put another dimension in those 3 dimensions?

ringo writes:

But it seems that you're not only misunderstanding the drawing.

The drawing depicts the universe as a tube that has two dimensions.
But the universe was not shot out of a cannon that it would have forward motion. If the BBT is correct the universe is a sphere and is expanding in every direction at the same time.

According to the Bible version I would believe that the length is probably greater than the height or width as it has been stretched out.

ringo writes:

you're trying to deny the science behind it.

What science are you talking about?

Give me the facts that you have to support that time is a dimension.

ringo writes:

Ever hear of a clock? Ever see a clock go backwards?

Yes I have heard of a clock. There are many kinds of clocks that operate on different scales. I have never had a problem turning my watch back an hour in the fall.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by ringo, posted 04-07-2018 12:12 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 658 by Modulous, posted 04-25-2018 2:59 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 659 by ringo, posted 04-25-2018 3:15 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 25 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 658 of 1073 (831864)
04-25-2018 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by ICANT
04-25-2018 3:11 AM


Re: Bible
I don't have any problem with drawing a 3d picture as I drew thousands of cabinets in 3d.

Could you explain to me how it would be possible to put another dimension in those 3 dimensions?

The drawing depicts the universe as a tube that has two dimensions.
But the universe was not shot out of a cannon that it would have forward motion. If the BBT is correct the universe is a sphere and is expanding in every direction at the same time.

It depicts the diameter of the sphere and how it changes over time. An atlas depicts a planet that is a rectangle. Projections and diagrams are fine for most people.

If General Relativity / BBT is true AND the curvature is positive the universe is a hypersphere: A four dimensional entity. That said, it's not a pure hypersphere as in one direction, the shape gets smaller - like how a circle in three dimensions that gets smaller and smaller is a cone. so really the universe is more like a hypercone - a four dimensional cone. At one 'end' it narrows to a point - a zero dimensional entity. At the other end its a massive four dimension sphere.

To locate something in the universe you need 4 dimensions. For instance my wallet is 1 metre north of my cat. It is 2 metres east of my cat. It is 1 metre up from my cat. But that isn't sufficient because tomorrow my wallet and the cat have moved. So I also need to use a fourth dimension - time.

Give me the facts that you have to support that time is a dimension.

If you apply this idea to the mathematics of physics, you describe a reality that matches our own. If you don't - your model of reality is wrong.

For instance - the precession of the perihelion of mercury does not make sense if there are only three dimension. Add time as a fourth dimension and then you can predict the precesssion perfectly. Likewise, the behaviour of particles in a particle accelerator makes absolutely zero sense in 3 dimensions alone, satellite navigation fails to operate correctly and ICBM guidance goes to crap.

Because it is said the closer you get to the speed of light the slower times goes and when you go faster than the speed of light you will go back in time.

As long as you have more than infinite energy. Which seems tricky to acquire.

Existence has to be eternal as existence could not have a beginning to exist from non-existence.

'Eternal' and 'beginning to exist from non-existence' are not the only possibilities.

So my question is what exactly is the dimension you call time?

What exactly is the dimension you call 'length'?

If you take a 2 x 4 that is 96" long the 96" measurement will always be the same as will the 2" and 4" measurements.

Unless the relative speed between you and the 2x4 varies significantly.

For instance, a muon's lifespan means it will not survive the time it takes to get from outside the atmosphere to the earth's surface - even travelling at the speed of light. However, we can observe that muons can survive this time. This observation makes sense in relativity because
a) From our point of view, time has slowed down for the muon so it's lifespan appears to be greater
b) From the muon's point of view, the distance between the atmosphere and the surface is contracted - so it has less distance to travel.

But if time is a dimension you or at least someone should be able to tell me exactly what that dimension is.

Oh that's easy. The dimension that time is is time.

No one has a problem with explaining what length, height, and width are as a dimension.

Go for it. Show me.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2018 3:11 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by ICANT, posted 04-29-2018 4:23 PM Modulous has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15400
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 659 of 1073 (831865)
04-25-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by ICANT
04-25-2018 3:11 AM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

I don't have any problem with drawing a 3d picture as I drew thousands of cabinets in 3d.


You seem to have a problem reading. I said, "It is difficult to portray and/or visualize four dimensions in a two-dimensional drawing."

ICANT writes:

Could you explain to me how it would be possible to put another dimension in those 3 dimensions?


Modulous' video explains it pretty well.

ICANT writes:

The drawing depicts the universe as a tube that has two dimensions.


No. It doesn't. It depicts the universe as a sphere expanding at varying rates over time.

ICANT writes:

What science are you talking about?


The science behind the Big Bang.

ICANT writes:

I have never had a problem turning my watch back an hour in the fall.


But you're not turning back time.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by ICANT, posted 04-25-2018 3:11 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 660 of 1073 (831867)
04-25-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 654 by Modulous
04-06-2018 7:13 PM


Re: Bible
Hi Mod,

Mod writes:

Like Genesis. Only Genesis is not based on physics that predicts the paths of planets, satellites and light.

Physics is a study of matter and energy.

The Bible is a study of matter and energy.

No Scientist or science book tells us how the universe began to exist nor how life began to exist.

The Bible tells us how the universe began to exist and how life began to exist.

Physics does not predict anything. It only tells us what has happened, and the course of things because of what has happened in the past.

Mod writes:

Assumptions which, if true, predict the existence of things we've seen, phenomena we have observed, anomalies we could not otherwise explain.

What if those assumptions are not true?
What you believe is based on assumptions but you do not want me to believe in the facts delivered to Moses during his 80 day visit with God that he was told to write in a book.

I personally believe that Moses was allowed to view the creation of the universe and the beginning of life on earth. He did not understand what he had viewed but he did a great job with his limited knowledge in trying to explain to us what creation was all about.

Mod writes:

Time is a dimension. Like all dimensions it measures a distance between two events.

Time does not measure the distance between two events.
Distance is the length of space between two points.
Time is made up of days, hours, minutes, and seconds are used to measure the duration between events that exist in eternity.
The measurement of days, hours, minutes, and seconds is relative. As they are determined by the rotation of the earth in relation to the sun.

Time is not a dimension which is a measurable extent of a particular kind.

The only kind of time we know of is that which is used to measure duration between events in eternity.

Mod writes:

Neither can they tell me how to measure time.

With a clock.

A clock does not measure time.

A clock is a mechanical device whether it has springs or uses the pulses of atoms to measure the duration between events in eternity.

The units of measurements is based upon God's definition of a day in Genesis 1:5. That day has been divided into hours, which has been divided into minutes, which has been divided into seconds etc..

Therefore time is a concept of man that he has invented to measure the distance (duration) between events.

Mod writes:

No. Time is time. In the early universe the geometry of time is, according to Hawking's notion, describable using complex mathematics - ie., imaginary numbers. This notion essentially resolves the singularity problem by 'smoothing' it out.

What kind of a statement is "Time is time"? What does that mean?

Notion= a conception of or belief about something an impulse or a desire

A Notion is not a fact. Neither is imaginary something real..

Yes Hawking had a notion with which he created imaginary time which runs vertical This imaginary time had to exist in which the pin point sized universe existed to make it possible for the BBT to work.

Otherwise the universe had to begin to exist out of non-existence. So he was trying to do away with the need of a first cause.

Mod writes:

Quite the opposite, it kind of makes the idea of a beginning to exist more incoherent. As you go further 'back' in time, time itself becomes increasingly space-like. That is, it takes on the properties closer to space than time - thus the notion of a beginning becomes less clear.

Hawking had this to say about the beginning of the universe.

quote:
This argument about whether or not the universe had a beginning, persisted into the 19th and 20th centuries. It was conducted mainly on the basis of theology and philosophy, with little consideration of observational evidence. This may have been reasonable, given the notoriously unreliable character of cosmological observations, until fairly recently. The cosmologist, Sir Arthur Eddington, once said, 'Don't worry if your theory doesn't agree with the observations, because they are probably wrong.' But if your theory disagrees with the Second Law of Thermodynamics, it is in bad trouble. In fact, the theory that the universe has existed forever is in serious difficulty with the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The Second Law, states that disorder always increases with time. Like the argument about human progress, it indicates that there must have been a beginning. Otherwise, the universe would be in a state of complete disorder by now, and everything would be at the same temperature. In an infinite and everlasting universe, every line of sight would end on the surface of a star. This would mean that the night sky would have been as bright as the surface of the Sun. The only way of avoiding this problem would be if, for some reason, the stars did not shine before a certain time.

In the same lecture Hawking said in conclusion:

quote:
The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago.

You can read the entire lecture at: http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

Either the universe is eternal in existence or had a beginning to exist.

Mod writes:

t's a diagram. 'Forwards' is time. Up and down (and depending on the diagram in and out) represent the three spatial dimensions. Thus as you proceed forwards in time, the diagram shows space expanding in all directions.

But the universe does not expand in a horizontal direction from a single point.

Expansion requires that space between quarks that existed in the pin point sized universe expand. That would make the pin point spread in all directions which would best be represented as a sphere.

Mod writes:

You can make a diagram which shows the different rates of expansion of the sphere over time, using only a sphere, if you'd like. But I'd wager it'd be more difficult to understand. I can't even imagine how you'd do it.

Why would that be hard to understand?

I have been told in the past that the universe is like a balloon with dots on it or a cake with raisins in it and the space grows between the raisins as the cake rises and as the balloon as it is filled with air.

But the universe does have a center which everything in the universe is moving away from as that is the point expansion began, according to the BBT.

Mod writes:

That's not what science teaches. It does not teach the universe did not exist. That may be true, but in any given theory where it is, there is something other than the universe that gives rise to the universe.

Then what existed at T=0?

General relativity breaks down and the math can not give any data of what existed at T=0.

Therefore there is no data at or past T=0. That means no know facts. Without facts all you have is a notion or belief.

That makes my belief just as factual as your belief.

Actually I have a book that tells me how the things at T=0 began to exist. That same book makes thousands of predictions that have been proven by scientific methods over the past 200 years.

Mod writes:

You just said it. Biological matter of deceased animals explains the oil.

But what is the scientific explanation of how the oil got to be 5 miles deep in the earth, where it is under 22,000 psi.

There are those who wrote in the hundred years BC and many years following the birth of Christ that there had been many worlds that had been destroyed. Where did they get those ideas from?

I believe that the earth was smaller in the past and was covered with vegetation and animals that was covered with overburden material in which there was more vegetation and animals who lived and died and was also covered with overburden. This process continued until the original matter that produced our oil was covered with 5 miles of overburden. This would have taken an enormous amount of duration.

Mod writes:

It's early conditions and its conditions today are the basis we have and upon which scientists are intelligently exploring avenues for the universe's earliest moments - and before that if such a thing exists.

The only facts you have concerning the early conditions are:
There was a period of extreme light evidenced by the CMBR.

Do you have anything to add?

Mod writes:

Unless braneworld is in some fashion, eternal.

But that does away with the BBT, which requires that the universe have a beginning to exist.

Mod writes:

If it just is, it didn't come from - it just is.

Which would require the universe to be eternal, which would mean that notion would be in deep trouble.

quote:
From above Hawking quote, ". The cosmologist, Sir Arthur Eddington, once said, 'Don't worry if your theory doesn't agree with the observations, because they are probably wrong.' But if your theory disagrees with the Second Law of Thermodynamics, it is in bad trouble. "

Mod writes:

No. They are all travelling through time and space.

Nothing is traveling through space as space is what is expanding.

Mod writes:


It is one dimension. So there is only two possible directions. Just like when considering length. It doesn't have to advance in both directions.

You are confusing time with duration.

Mod writes:

Just maybe time is not a dimension and is only a concept devised by mankind to measure duration between events.
just as mankind invented length to measure distance between points?

Exactly the point I am trying to make. Which is that mankind invented a way to measure duration between events in existence (rather than using eternity).

Mod writes:

It is one dimension. So there is only two possible directions. Just like when considering length. It doesn't have to advance in both directions.

Again you are confusing duration with time which is a way of measuring duration.

Mod writes:

His alternative is just multiple big bang expansion events with the one we talk about today being the most recent. It's not a well-respected idea regardless of people's opinions of Penrose.

His alternative was just a notion he had that could have been used to do away with the universe having a beginning to exist. The problem with that notion is that you would still run into the problem created by the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Which would be Thermal Equilibrium.

Mod writes:

That's a great question! Generally speaking physicists tend to answer by pointing to the necessary directionality of thermodynamics and entropy. But a full discussion is beyond the scope of this, apparently a 'bible' topic.

But thermodynamics takes place in duration which is measured by mans invention called time.

Any place you are at in the universe that exists has duration between that point and the point that began to expand shortly after T=0.

Are you telling me that duration can not be measured as time can only go in one direction? That sounds silly.

Mod writes:

No, that doesn't follow from anything we know.

Are you saying then that since the universe is not expanding into empty space that the universe is not expanding. Which would mean that it is still the size of a pin point and we just perceive that the universe is expanding. Talking about magic, that takes the cake.

Mod writes:

I, for one, practically insist upon it!

If the universe don't have something to expand into, then it is not expanding.

Mod writes:

Naturally you do. There's less basis for that belief than cosmology of course. Just an anonymous author from over two millennia ago

He may be anonymous to you but he is not anonymous to me. Jesus tells me Moses wrote the Torah.

I have just as much evidence for my belief as you have for yours.

I have Biblical evidence for a light period in the universe of undetermined duration which is equal to the CMBR.

I also have Biblical information that has been proven to be true by modern science that was written over 2800 years ago.

You are always talking about theories making predictions being evidence for your scientific views.

The same would hold true for the predictions of the Bible that has been proven to be fact by science.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Modulous, posted 04-06-2018 7:13 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 661 by Modulous, posted 04-25-2018 5:37 PM ICANT has responded

    
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