Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8869 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 10-20-2018 1:55 AM
190 online now:
DrJones* (1 member, 189 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: paradigm of types
Happy Birthday: Astrophile
Post Volume:
Total: 840,440 Year: 15,263/29,783 Month: 1,207/1,502 Week: 205/492 Day: 0/25 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
6465
66
6768
...
72Next
Author Topic:   Creation
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 976 of 1080 (840968)
10-06-2018 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 963 by creation
10-05-2018 11:58 AM


Re: Creation
Hi creation,

creation writes:

The earth would orbit in the same time if no man lived on earth, or if all men hid in a closet for a few days.
Your claim that animals have no concept of time is not supported.

The earth is slowing down every day. But as JonF says not much.

When it comes to animals having a concept of time I have never seen one with a watch, not even Mr. Ed the talking horse.

Some animals move around at night, others during the day time. Some sleep in the daytime and others at night. They all eat when they get hungry

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 963 by creation, posted 10-05-2018 11:58 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 994 by creation, posted 10-08-2018 9:48 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 977 of 1080 (840970)
10-06-2018 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 964 by ringo
10-05-2018 12:00 PM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

But of course red isn't a substance. Go to the hardware store and ask for some red. They'll look at you like you're an idiot. Red is not a substance.

Actually the clerk would ask red what?

ringo writes:

The paint would have the property red. The wood would have the property red. Red is a property of things. It is not a thing.

Actually there has to be red pigment put in the base paint to make it red.

So red is a substance.

The Egyptians made red from iron oxides and red ochres. which was used to make red dye and paint.

ringo writes:

Something that does not exist is neither absent nor present.

If it does not exist it is non-existant

You can be absent from EvC for a period of duration then you could return and you would be present. But you existed all the duration.

ringo writes:

I told you. We compare known distances with unknown distances, like an unknown length of two-by-four with a known length of yardstick.

It takes too long to measure a 2 x 4 with a yardstick unless you are cutting a piece off of it less than 36". I use a tape measure.

I would not try to measure the distance from my house to Miami with a yardstick. Not even my tape. I would get in the car and drive to Miami and read the odometer and it would tell me how many miles it was. If I did not want to drive to Miami I would just go to map quest type in my address and the address I wanted to go to in Miami and it would give me the distance between the two addresses.

ringo writes:

I did. We compare an unknown time, say the time it takes to run 100 meters, with a known time, say the time it takes a one-meter-long pendulum to make one swing.

You got 2 unknowns there.

How am I supposed to figure out the duration it takes a one meter pendulum to make one swing.

Even if I knew, it would not tell me how long it would take to run 100 meters.

Now I could take a stop watch and measure the duration required for both your events to occur.

ringo writes:

ICANT writes:

But please tell me how you measure time. I use a watch.


You answered your own question.

But actually my clock won't measure time.

It will measure the duration between events.

Time does not exist as it is a concept mankind has devised to measure the duration between events. The clocks we use to measure that duration is based on the rotation of the earth relative to the sun.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 964 by ringo, posted 10-05-2018 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 982 by ringo, posted 10-06-2018 12:25 PM ICANT has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4212
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 978 of 1080 (840978)
10-06-2018 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 973 by ICANT
10-06-2018 12:38 AM


Re: Creation
So time is based on the rotation of the earth relative to the sun. Not to the atomic clock.

Doesn't follow from your previous statements, and false.

Time is based on whatever measure is convenient and sufficiently accurate.. Earth's rotation varies too much to be sufficiently accurate, not to mention the problem that Earth's rotation is difficult to impossible to measure under almost all circumstances. All the instruments we use for measuring time are calibrated through a series of other devices and ultimately by an atomic clock. Atomic clock time is close to Earth rotation time, but not exactly equal.

In the US, the official definition of time is the time kept by the NIST-F2 atomic clock. https://www.nist.gov/...s-time-standard-nist-f2-atomic-clock. Other countries use other atomic clocks. The various clocks are compared to each other regularly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 973 by ICANT, posted 10-06-2018 12:38 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 983 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2018 12:35 AM JonF has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4212
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 979 of 1080 (840979)
10-06-2018 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 974 by ICANT
10-06-2018 12:47 AM


Re: Creation
How do you adjust the earth's rotation?

You don't. You adjust the clock that is based on the Earth's rotation rate.

So the second that is chosen to be one second in duration is wrong and it is not a good representation of one second.

The second is officially defined as 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom. That can't be wrong, it's the definition.

That isn't a nice round number because it was chosen so that an atomic clock second would be very very close to (and a good representation of for many purposes) an Earth-rotation second. But the atomic clock second is the one and only second.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 974 by ICANT, posted 10-06-2018 12:47 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4212
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 980 of 1080 (840980)
10-06-2018 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 975 by ICANT
10-06-2018 12:49 AM


Re: Creation
The scientific answer is "we're not sure but we have some possible hypotheses and are making significant progress in finding out".

So you don't know either.

Only if you define "know" as perfect and complete knowledge. In that sense we don't "know" anything.

"We don't know everything therefore we know nothing" is a common and false creationist canard.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 975 by ICANT, posted 10-06-2018 12:49 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 986 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2018 1:20 AM JonF has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15404
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 981 of 1080 (840991)
10-06-2018 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 969 by creation
10-05-2018 11:17 PM


Re: Creation
creation writes:

You have shown no evidence that the laws on earth were the same.


Do we have to show evidence that the sun rises every day? If you think it doesn't, you're the one who has to show evidence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 969 by creation, posted 10-05-2018 11:17 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 985 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2018 1:17 AM ringo has responded
 Message 1038 by creation, posted 10-11-2018 9:26 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15404
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 982 of 1080 (840992)
10-06-2018 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 977 by ICANT
10-06-2018 1:57 AM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

Actually the clerk would ask red what?


Exactly. Because red is not a thing. It's a property of things. There has to be a "what" to have the property of red. There is no free-range red.

ICANT writes:

Actually there has to be red pigment put in the base paint to make it red.

So red is a substance.


No. Pigment is a substance, which sometimes has the property of red.

ICANT writes:

You can be absent from EvC for a period of duration then you could return and you would be present. But you existed all the duration.


That's what I said. But you said in Message 950, "I hope that helps you understand what existence is. It is the opposite of an absence of anything." That's wrong. Absence is not necessarily non-existence.

ICANT writes:

I would not try to measure the distance from my house to Miami with a yardstick. Not even my tape.


It doesn't matter what tool you use. The point is that you compare a known length to an unknown length. That's what measurement is.

ICANT writes:

How am I supposed to figure out the duration it takes a one meter pendulum to make one swing.


You measure time in pendulum swings. If A takes 10 pendulum swings to run 100 meters and B takes 11 pendulum swings to run 100 meters, then A ran faster.

ICANT writes:

But actually my clock won't measure time.

It will measure the duration between events.


For the purpose of this discussion, that's what time is. If you can't understand the grade-school mathematics of measurement, you certainly can't understand the space-time continuum.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 977 by ICANT, posted 10-06-2018 1:57 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 984 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2018 1:06 AM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 983 of 1080 (841010)
10-07-2018 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 978 by JonF
10-06-2018 9:07 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Jon,

Jon writes:

Time is based on whatever measure is convenient and sufficiently accurate.. Earth's rotation varies too much to be sufficiently accurate, not to mention the problem that Earth's rotation is difficult to impossible to measure under almost all circumstances.

But the duration of that rotation of the earth relative to the sun is what we have to measure, and divide up into 24 hours.

What if the Egyptians had used 48 hours instead of 24? Each hour divided into 120 seconds the cycles of the atom would have to be said to be 2 seconds not one. Because any other way the two would not be close to being in sync.

Jon writes:

In the US, the official definition of time is the time kept by the NIST-F2 atomic clock. https://www.nist.gov/...s-time-standard-nist-f2-atomic-clock. Other countries use other atomic clocks. The various clocks are compared to each other regularly.

quote:
"The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom."

That is the adopted length of a second, as chosen by man.

But it is irrelevant what we use to measure duration between events the rotation of the earth relative to the sun is the only thing that counts. There is only so much duration between sunrise and the following sunrise which is designated as 24 hours in duration with each hour divided into 60 minutes each hour with each minute divided into 60 seconds.

It is said that the latest atomic clock will not gain or lose 1 second in 300 million years. That is great but in that 300 million years without leap second adjustments it would be very inconvenient as the atomic clock and the earth would not be in sync.

So it makes no difference how long the clock could run without the cycles of the radiation varying. The earths rotation determines how much duration there is between sunrise and sunrise, and that is what has to be measured.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 978 by JonF, posted 10-06-2018 9:07 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 987 by JonF, posted 10-07-2018 9:46 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 984 of 1080 (841011)
10-07-2018 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 982 by ringo
10-06-2018 12:25 PM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

Exactly. Because red is not a thing.

Where did the red ochres get their red from. They were red and they were what was used to paint with, write with and dye with. So what were they besides red?

ringo writes:

That's what I said. But you said in Message 950, "I hope that helps you understand what existence is. It is the opposite of an absence of anything." That's wrong. Absence is not necessarily non-existence.

How is that supposed to follow.

Oh I see, you just purposely left off, "of anything". You can't chop up a statement like that and get a true meaning.

You only used absence in your statement.

Absence of anything does not equal 'absence'.

Absence of anything is all inclusive.

If there was an absence of anything, there would be no universe and anything that is in it.

There would be an absence of anything outside of the universe as there would be no thing. It would not be like you going on a trip.

I know you can not understand that so why don't we just move on.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 982 by ringo, posted 10-06-2018 12:25 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 990 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 2:50 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 985 of 1080 (841012)
10-07-2018 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 981 by ringo
10-06-2018 12:10 PM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

Do we have to show evidence that the sun rises every day? If you think it doesn't, you're the one who has to show evidence.

What is the duration of a day and what determines the length of that duration?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 981 by ringo, posted 10-06-2018 12:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 988 by JonF, posted 10-07-2018 9:48 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 991 by ringo, posted 10-07-2018 2:55 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5971
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 986 of 1080 (841013)
10-07-2018 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 980 by JonF
10-06-2018 9:15 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Jon

Jon writes:

Only if you define "know"

Do you care to share what you do know concerning the origin of the universe and the origin of life?

This thread is about creation which is the origin of things.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 980 by JonF, posted 10-06-2018 9:15 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 989 by JonF, posted 10-07-2018 9:51 AM ICANT has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4212
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 987 of 1080 (841025)
10-07-2018 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 983 by ICANT
10-07-2018 12:35 AM


Re: Creation
But the duration of that rotation of the earth relative to the sun is what we have to measure, and divide up into 24 hours.

No, it's difficult to measure the rotation of the Earth and it changes back and forth too much to be useful in precise measurements

BTW, the earth rotates in a little less than 24 hours relative to the Sun because of its orbital motion.

What if the Egyptians had used 48 hours instead of 24? Each hour divided into 120 seconds the cycles of the atom would have to be said to be 2 seconds not one. Because any other way the two would not be close to being in sync.

The units of time are arbitrarily chosen for convenience. There's nothing magical about 24 and 60. The Egyptians could have chosen 33 hours per day, 21 minutes per hour, and 137 seconds per minute. We would have chosen a different number of atomic transitions to represent a second and atomic second would be very close to an Egyptian second.

You have severe difficulty distinguishing between what is arbitrary and what is physically required.

"The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom."

That is the adopted length of a second, as chosen by man.

But it is irrelevant what we use to measure duration between events the rotation of the earth relative to the sun is the only thing that counts. There is only so much duration between sunrise and the following sunrise which is designated as 24 hours..


Arbitrarily chosen by Man (and see below).

in duration with each hour divided into 60 minutes...

Arbitrarily chosen by Man.

each hour with each minute divided into 60 seconds.

Arbitrarily chosen by Man.

It is said that the latest atomic clock will not gain or lose 1 second in 300 million years. That is great but in that 300 million years without leap second adjustments it would be very inconvenient as the atomic clock and the earth would not be in sync.

And with leap seconds the two would be in sync. SFW?

The earths rotation determines how much duration there is between sunrise and sunrise, and that is what has to be measured.

The duration between sunrise and sunset is near-impossible to measure and varies from zero to infinity depending on where you are on the Earth {ABE and the Earth's axial tilt and where it is in its orbit /ABE}. Not useful.And it does not have to be measured not does any system of units have to be based on it.

The choice of what to measure and how to divide up that measurement is purely arbitrary. We don't even have to make it anywhere near Earth-rotation-based units. We could define a second as 10,000,000,000 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom. A nice round number. But it would be very inconvenient to convert between the two systems all the time, and all the non-atomic clocks in the world would have to be replaced.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 983 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2018 12:35 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 993 by ICANT, posted 10-08-2018 1:32 AM JonF has responded
 Message 1001 by ICANT, posted 10-08-2018 7:26 PM JonF has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4212
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 988 of 1080 (841026)
10-07-2018 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 985 by ICANT
10-07-2018 1:17 AM


Re: Creation
What is the duration of a day and what determines the length of that duration?

If the duration of a day is based on sunrise and sunset, the duration varies from zero to infinity. The length is determined by the Earth's rotation, its axial tilt, where the Earth is in its orbit, and where you are on the Earth.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 985 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2018 1:17 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1002 by ICANT, posted 10-08-2018 7:49 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4212
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 989 of 1080 (841027)
10-07-2018 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 986 by ICANT
10-07-2018 1:20 AM


Re: Creation
Do you care to share what you do know concerning the origin of the universe and the origin of life?

What Man knows about the origin of the universe and the origin of life fills many, many books. Far better writers than I have explained it in various levels of detail. I'm not going to try to better their efforts in a relatively brief posting. I'll be glad to dig up some links if you are interested.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 986 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2018 1:20 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1003 by ICANT, posted 10-08-2018 8:06 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15404
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 990 of 1080 (841065)
10-07-2018 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 984 by ICANT
10-07-2018 1:06 AM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

Where did the red ochres get their red from.


They didn't "get" red from anywhere because red is not a thing that can be got. They appear red because they reflect light in the part of the spectrum that our eyes and brains call "red". Different substances appear as different colors because their different chemical structures reflect different wavelengths of light. Shine a different wavelength on it and it will no longer appear red, so there can not be any inherent red thing in it.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 984 by ICANT, posted 10-07-2018 1:06 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 997 by ICANT, posted 10-08-2018 3:02 PM ringo has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
6465
66
6768
...
72Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018