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Author Topic:   Creation
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1558
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 1186 of 1377 (842617)
11-03-2018 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1184 by creation
11-03-2018 2:34 PM


Re: Creation
So your claim was sarcasm, and you don't actually thin the current physics/nature we see is indicative of the future or past? Spit it out.

Yesterday, I went to work.

But how can I know this? How can I know that I was really here yesterday and these ideas were not implanted in a brain fully made this morning?

I'm having difficulty seeing how your arguments about things a long way away or a long time ago differ from the above. You're just saying over and over "but maybe there's something that makes what's really x look like y!', without ever giving any idea of what x is or why anything would make it look like y.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1184 by creation, posted 11-03-2018 2:34 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1189 by creation, posted 11-04-2018 12:10 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6131
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1187 of 1377 (842622)
11-04-2018 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1183 by JonF
11-02-2018 7:44 PM


Re: Creation
Hi Jon

Jon writes:

Still confusing the units we chose (arbitrarily) with what is being measured.

No I am not confusing the units of measurement we have devised to use to give us length width height or depth. with what they are used to measure.

Neither do I confuse what a clock measures with what is being measured.

A clock is a device devised to measure the duration between events in existence.

But you did answer my question when you said: "we chose (arbitrarily)"
The numbers are chosen by mankind arbitrarily that we use to measure anything with.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1183 by JonF, posted 11-02-2018 7:44 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1188 by JonF, posted 11-04-2018 8:37 AM ICANT has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4295
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(2)
Message 1188 of 1377 (842625)
11-04-2018 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1187 by ICANT
11-04-2018 1:54 AM


Re: Creation
The numbers are chosen by mankind arbitrarily that we use to measure anything with.

Yes, that was my point, except it's the units that are are arbitrary, not the number of units we get when we measure something.

But we are measuring something with those arbitrary units.

You asked:

What or who determines what an inch is? or a foot? or a yard?

Who determines the length of a second?

Today, official governmental or international standards bodies implementing arbitrarily chosen standards. In the past, whoever was in charge.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1187 by ICANT, posted 11-04-2018 1:54 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1196 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 1:35 AM JonF has responded

  
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1189 of 1377 (842636)
11-04-2018 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1186 by caffeine
11-03-2018 6:20 PM


Re: Creation
Not a thread for those who have a problem with yesterday.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1186 by caffeine, posted 11-03-2018 6:20 PM caffeine has not yet responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1190 of 1377 (842637)
11-04-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1185 by Tangle
11-03-2018 3:32 PM


Re: Creation
So you DO believe the current nature is indicative of the far past? Spit it out.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1185 by Tangle, posted 11-03-2018 3:32 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1191 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2018 1:10 PM creation has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6389
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 1191 of 1377 (842648)
11-04-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1190 by creation
11-04-2018 12:12 PM


Re: Creation
creation writes:

So you DO believe the current nature is indicative of the far past? Spit it out.

What you or I believe is irrelevant to anyone but ourselves. It's what can be evidenced that matters. It should be obvious to you by now that the nonsense you make up impresses no-one but yourself so you should be asking yourself why. After all, the majority of us here are rational and prepared to accept well-founded ideas. I'd go as far as to say that if someone came here with a crazy idea that had a pile of evidence behind it, it would get a good listening to.

But that never happens. What actually happens is that crazy people come here with crazy ideas and absolutely no evidence to support them so they blather on like you do until they get bored and disapear to troll another forum. They think that their demented ideas are brilliant but somehow can't get anyone but other loonies to listen to them. They should learn from this but they don't; the more actual evidence that's produced to show how wrong they are, the more they know that they're right. There's lots of terms for this effect but the simplest is delusion.

You're just another clueless, childish crank.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1190 by creation, posted 11-04-2018 12:12 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1213 by creation, posted 11-08-2018 3:40 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1192 of 1377 (842653)
11-04-2018 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1176 by ICANT
11-02-2018 5:25 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

Who said it wasn't scattered all over the place.


I'm pretty sure you have. Isn't that your misinterpretation of Genesis 1:9-10?

ICANT writes:

The earth was divided in the days of Peleg.


It was the people who were divided:
quote:
Genesis 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

quote:
Genesis 10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.

Genesis 11 continues with the story of the Tower of babel - i.e. the people were divided by language.

ICANT writes:

Do you contend that there was never a time when there was one land mass?

Pangaea comes to my mind.


According to Wikipedia:
quote:
Pangea was a supercontinent that existed during the late Paleozoic and early Mesozoic eras. It assembled from earlier continental units approximately 335 million years ago, and it began to break apart about 175 million years ago.

You can't pick an arbitrary time period and pretend that it corresponds with "the beginning".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1176 by ICANT, posted 11-02-2018 5:25 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1203 by ICANT, posted 11-06-2018 12:52 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1193 of 1377 (842654)
11-04-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1178 by creation
11-02-2018 5:48 PM


Re: Creation
creation writes:

Lifespans changed greatly look it up.


The only place to look it up is in the Bible. There is no corroborating evidence.

creation writes:

Spirits no longer marry women and have babies on earth. Look it up.


If you're referring to Genesis 6:2, what has that got to do with "spirits"?

creation writes:

If you send a bird to find a tree someplace there are no trees, and a week later it returns with evidence of a new tree...that is fast growth.


No, that is not evidence of fast tree growth. At best, it's evidence that the bird didn't find a tree the first time and he did find a tree the second time.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1178 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 5:48 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1214 by creation, posted 11-08-2018 3:42 PM ringo has responded
 Message 1216 by creation, posted 11-08-2018 3:45 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1194 of 1377 (842656)
11-04-2018 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1179 by creation
11-02-2018 5:49 PM


Re: Creation
creation writes:

However since the one place was a bible quote....


The only quote I've seen is that the WATER was in one place:
quote:
Genesis 1:9-10 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
It doesn't say that the land was on one place.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1179 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 5:49 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1215 by creation, posted 11-08-2018 3:43 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15766
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1195 of 1377 (842658)
11-04-2018 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1181 by creation
11-02-2018 5:53 PM


Re: Creation
creation writes:

You claimed windows of heaven are fairy tales. Like you know?


We know there is no "firmament" for there to be windows in.

creation writes:

As for upheaval, we see that in the world so it had to have happened sometime.


We also know that it takes a very long time. We can measure it happening on a year-to-year basis, so we know it couldn't have happened since the flood.

creation writes:

Many feel that mountains before the flood were smaller.


There's no Biblical basis for that. It's made up.

creation writes:

So the real high ones had to get here somehow, sometime.


Long before the flood - so the flood couldn't have covered them.

creation writes:

Looking at other big changes though, we can see that a lot of changes happened right after the flood period.


No, there is nothing either in the Bible or in reality to suggest any major changes in mountain height, etc. since the flood.

creation writes:

Another way to cross check this in the bile is to look at the future. I would say that the future, not the present is the key to the past in the bible!


The problem with that "key" is that it can't be tested until the future. You can't just assume that something will happen and then use that assumption as corroborating evidence.

creation writes:

Every island shall flee away and every mountain shall be made low, and a great quake will level all mountains and all skyscrapers (towers) on earth.

One good fit for this would be a rapid returning to the way it was in the past!!


Isaiah 40:4?

No. Even if that does happen in the future, that's no indication that it's a "return" to the past.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1181 by creation, posted 11-02-2018 5:53 PM creation has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6131
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1196 of 1377 (842680)
11-05-2018 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1188 by JonF
11-04-2018 8:37 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Jon,

Jon writes:

Today, official governmental or international standards bodies implementing arbitrarily chosen standards. In the past, whoever was in charge.

So mankind decides what the units of measure is. Applies that to an application and gets a result.

Therefore time is a concept of mankind devised to measure the duration between events in existence.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1188 by JonF, posted 11-04-2018 8:37 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1197 by JonF, posted 11-05-2018 9:01 AM ICANT has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4295
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1197 of 1377 (842684)
11-05-2018 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1196 by ICANT
11-05-2018 1:35 AM


Re: Creation
Still confusing the units with what is being measured. The map is not the territory. The arbitrary units are not what is being measured.

The fact that we can measure time shows us that time exists independent of our measurements.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1196 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 1:35 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1200 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 2:32 PM JonF has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3282
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1198 of 1377 (842686)
11-05-2018 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1177 by ICANT
11-02-2018 5:35 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

What or who determines what an inch is? or a foot? or a yard?

Who determines the length of a second?

People do.

So mankind decides what the units of measure is. Applies that to an application and gets a result.

Absolutely.

Therefore time is a concept of mankind devised to measure the duration between events in existence.

No.

Seconds are a concept of mankind devised to measure the duration of time between events in existence.
Just as:
Inches are a concept of mankind devised to measure the length of matter between points in existence.

Seconds and inches are made up by mankind.
Time and length are not.

Time and length exist regardless of us measuring them.

Seconds and inches only exist because we want to measure time and length as best we can.

Again, time and length are treated by humans the same.
If you want to argue that time is made up... you're also arguing that length is made up?
I would think a builder would know that length itself is not made up.
Just as the time it takes to build something.

It doesn't matter if you measure 8 feet or 96 inches or 2.4384 meters or some value of some made up unit of the same length... they're all the same length.
The length exists regardless of our measurement.

It doesn't matter if you measure 10 seconds or 0.00277778 hours or 8.2672e^-6 fortnights or some value of some made up unit of the same time... they're all the same time.
The time exists regardless of our measurement.

Do you think length is real?
You would at least be consistent if you didn't think length was real.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1177 by ICANT, posted 11-02-2018 5:35 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1199 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 2:24 PM Stile has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6131
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1199 of 1377 (842704)
11-05-2018 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1198 by Stile
11-05-2018 9:42 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Stile

Stile writes:

Seconds are a concept of mankind devised to measure the duration of time between events in existence.

What are seconds?

quote:
The second (abbreviation, s or sec) is the Standard International ( SI ) unit of time.

https://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/second-s-or-sec

According to that a second is a unit of time.
This unit of time is what is used to measure the duration between events in existence.

So explain to me how you can measure a unit of time with a unit of time.

Stile writes:

Time and length exist regardless of us measuring them.

You can measure the duration between events with units of time.

But what is this time that you can measure it?

Stile writes:

Just as the time it takes to build something.

There is duration in existence between the start of building something and the finish of building that something. That duration is what is measured in seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, and years.

You seem to be equating duration and time as the same thing.

Stile writes:

Do you think length is real?


Sure length is just as real as duration between events is real.

Time is what you measure duration between events with.

So what is the problem?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1198 by Stile, posted 11-05-2018 9:42 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1201 by Stile, posted 11-05-2018 3:00 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6131
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1200 of 1377 (842705)
11-05-2018 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1197 by JonF
11-05-2018 9:01 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Jon,

Jon writes:

The fact that we can measure time shows us that time exists independent of our measurements.

Please explain to me what it is that you measure that is time?

What do you use to measure time with?

As I posted to Stile a second is the Standard International ( SI ) unit of time. It is not something you measure but something you measure with.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1197 by JonF, posted 11-05-2018 9:01 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1202 by JonF, posted 11-05-2018 3:12 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
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