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Author Topic:   Creation
Stile
Member
Posts: 3256
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1201 of 1221 (842707)
11-05-2018 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1199 by ICANT
11-05-2018 2:24 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

So explain to me how you can measure a unit of time with a unit of time.

The same way you measure a unit of length with a unit of length.

You can measure the duration between events with units of time.

You can measure the distance between locations with units of length.

But what is this time that you can measure it?

It's a fundamental property of reality.
Just like length.

If length is real, so is time... since they're treated exactly the same as you've been showing us.

There is duration in existence between the start of building something and the finish of building that something. That duration is what is measured in seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, and years.

There is distance in existence between the start of the beam and the finish of the beam. That distance is what is measured in inches, feet, centimeters...

You seem to be equating duration and time as the same thing.

As much as distance and length can be equated to be the same thing, yes.

As you've just described "duration" here... duration and time are the same thing.
Just as I've described "distance" here... distance and length are the same thing.

What makes you think time is not "the duration between the start of building something and the finish of building that something?"
What makes you think time cannot be measured "in seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, and years?"

What makes you think length is not "the distance between the start of a beam and the finish of a beam?"
What makes you think length cannot be measured "in inches, feet, centimeters...?"

Obviously, as you're proving to us, time and length are both treated exactly the same.

Sure length is just as real as duration between events is real.

Sure time is just as real as distance between locations is real.

Length is real, just as time is real.

Time is what you measure duration between events with.

Length is what you measure distance between locations with.

So what is the problem?

I don't think there is one.

If you think length is real... and it lines up perfectly with how time is also used... then time is also real.
If we both think time is real just as length is real... what's the problem?
So what if you like to use words like "duration" when talking about time? Lots of people like to use words like "distance" when talking about length.
It doesn't make a difference.

Definition of duration: the time during which something continues.
Definition of distance: an amount of space between two things or people.

Duration sure sounds like time to me.
Distance sure sounds like length to me.

Doesn't seem to be any problem at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1199 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 2:24 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1204 by ICANT, posted 11-06-2018 1:40 AM Stile has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4244
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1202 of 1221 (842709)
11-05-2018 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1200 by ICANT
11-05-2018 2:32 PM


Re: Creation
Please explain to me what it is that you measure that is time?[

You're repeating yourself. Same answer as before. Time means different things depending on your point of view. We don't have to understand it completely to measure it.

What do you use to measure time with?

Various instruments, including clocks. SFW? What we measure we call "time". No matter what it is it exists.

As I posted to Stile a second is the Standard International ( SI ) unit of time. It is not something you measure but something you measure with

The second is just a unit. It is not what we measure nor is it what we measure with. A second is a label for a certain amount of time.

Time, the instruments with which we measure time, and the labels we use for particular amounts of time are three different things. You continue to conflate all three into lne

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1200 by ICANT, posted 11-05-2018 2:32 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6055
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1203 of 1221 (842713)
11-06-2018 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1192 by ringo
11-04-2018 1:31 PM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo

ringo writes:

I'm pretty sure you have. Isn't that your misinterpretation of Genesis 1:9-10?

I said that in Genesis 1:9, 10 all the dry land was in one place.

But during Peleg's lifetime the earth was divided and yes it was scattered to where it is today. Genesis 10:25.

ringo writes:

It was the people who were divided:

You tell me the earth was not divided in the days of Peleg but the people.

So why did Moses say in the next chapter:

quote:
Genesis 11:8 So the LORD H3068 scattered them abroad H6327 from thence H8033 upon the face H6440 of all the earth: H776 and they left off H2308 to build H1129 the city. H5892 .

I put the strongs numbers in just in case you wanted to look the meaning of the words up for yourself.

scattered H6327 יפץ is Qal perfect and means to be dispersed, be scattered

quote:
Genesis 10:25 And unto Eber H5677 were born H3205 two H8147 sons: H1121 the name H8034 of one H259 was Peleg; H6389 for in his days H3117 was the earth H776 divided; H6385 and his brother's H251 name H8034 was Joktan. H3355

divided H6385 פלג is Qal Perfect and means to divide, split. This Hebrew word is used only 4 times in the Hebrew text. Genesis 10:25 and 1 Ch. 1:19 which state the same thing. In Job 38:25 divided watercourse, and Psa. 55:9 David asking God to divide the peoples tongue.

Does יפץ look like פלג?
Two different words with two different meanings no way to mix them up.

quote:
Genesis 11:6 And the LORD H3068 said, H559 Behold, the people H5971 is one, H259 and they have all one H259 language; H8193 and this they begin H2490 to do: H6213 and now nothing H3808 H3605 will be restrained H1219 from them, which they have imagined H2161 to do. H6213Genesis 10:32 These are the families H4940 of the sons H1121 of Noah, H5146 after their generations, H8435 in their nations: H1471 and by these were the nations H1471 divided H6504 in the earth H776 after H310 the flood. H3999

divided H6504 פרד Qal Perfect and means to separate, divide.

Does פלג and פרד look like the same word? They are not and are used differently.

ringo writes:

You can't pick an arbitrary time period and pretend that it corresponds with "the beginning".

You quote Wikipedia saying one land mass did exist.

Then you tell me I can't pick an arbitrary time period nd pretend that it corresponds with "the beginning".

I am not talking about the dry land mass being in one in the beginning. There was no ocean then only a river big enough to supply enough water for 4 rivers that went out to water the whole earth.

But the dry land mass I am talking about was not that long ago. You state Pangea began to break up 175 million years ago. What proof do you have it was 175 million years ago?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1192 by ringo, posted 11-04-2018 1:31 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1210 by ringo, posted 11-07-2018 11:27 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6055
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1204 of 1221 (842714)
11-06-2018 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1201 by Stile
11-05-2018 3:00 PM


Re: Creation
Hi Stile,

Stile writes:

The same way you measure a unit of length with a unit of length.

Just how do you do that?

Stile writes:

You can measure the distance between locations with units of length.

Yes, inches, feet, yards, and miles. And while you are doing that measuring duration will take place. You can measure that duration with a time piece, (watch) to determine how long it took for you to measure between the two locations.

Stile writes:

It's a fundamental property of reality.
Just like length.

I know that is what you have been taught and believe.

So tell me what fundamental property of reality is time that you can measure it with a clock, or a ruler, or a tape measure?

Stile writes:

If length is real, so is time... since they're treated exactly the same as you've been showing us.

I have not treated time and length the same.

Length is something you can measure with a tape measure.

Time is what is used to measure duration between events in existence.

Stile writes:

As you've just described "duration" here... duration and time are the same thing.

You can measure duration between events in existence. You have to use units of time to measure duration.

But how can you measure time when you can't tell me what it is?

Stile writes:

What makes you think time is not "the duration between the start of building something and the finish of building that something?"

Because units of time is what is used to measure that duration.

Stile writes:

What makes you think time cannot be measured "in seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, and years?"

Because seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, and years are units of time.

Stile writes:

Obviously, as you're proving to us, time and length are both treated exactly the same.

No length and time are not treated the same.

Length can be measured with a tape measure.
Duration between events in existence can be measured with watches and clocks.

Stile writes:

Sure time is just as real as distance between locations is real.

Then give me a definition of time. What is it that you can measure it?

Stile writes:

Length is what you measure distance between locations with.

No you measure the distance between locations with units of length. Such as inches, feet, yards, and miles.

Stile writes:

Duration sure sounds like time to me.
Distance sure sounds like length to me.
Doesn't seem to be any problem at all.

But duration is not time. You measure duration with a clock which uses units of time. Which mankind derived from a complete rotation of the earth relative to the sun. He divided that rotation up into seconds, minutes and hours. The units that is used to measure duration between events in existence.

But distance is not length. You measure the distance with units of length. A tape measure has units of length marked off on it. 1/64, 1/32, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1" 1' up to however many units of length you can put on the tape.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1201 by Stile, posted 11-05-2018 3:00 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1205 by Pressie, posted 11-06-2018 4:02 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1207 by Stile, posted 11-06-2018 9:58 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 1209 by JonF, posted 11-06-2018 1:04 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1910
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 1205 of 1221 (842715)
11-06-2018 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1204 by ICANT
11-06-2018 1:40 AM


Re: Creation
Stile, JonF, etc.

I think that you are trying to have a rational conversation with a tapeworm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1204 by ICANT, posted 11-06-2018 1:40 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1206 by JonF, posted 11-06-2018 8:51 AM Pressie has not yet responded
 Message 1208 by Stile, posted 11-06-2018 10:15 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4244
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 1206 of 1221 (842719)
11-06-2018 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1205 by Pressie
11-06-2018 4:02 AM


Re: Creation
Yup. But it is mildly interesting to accurately elucidate such fundamental principles.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1205 by Pressie, posted 11-06-2018 4:02 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3256
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1207 of 1221 (842722)
11-06-2018 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1204 by ICANT
11-06-2018 1:40 AM


Re: Creation
You seem very confused on the reality of length.
I'm pretty sure that's why you're also confused about the reality of time.

So let's focus on understanding your confusion with length, it's a bit simpler. Then we can apply what we learn to time.

Here's your confusion (added italics are my thoughts):

ICANT writes:

ICANT: Length can be measured with a tape measure.
Stile: Yes, it certainly can

...

ICANT: No you measure the distance between locations with units of length. Such as inches, feet, yards, and miles.
Stile: I agree with this too - distance can be measured with units of length

...

ICANT: But distance is not length. You measure the distance with units of length. A tape measure...
Stile: The doesn't seem to add up. How can length and distance be measured the same way but not be the same thing?

What is this difference between distance and length you seem to believe exists?

You seem to say length can be measured with a tape measure.
And distance can be measured with a tape measure.

But distance is not length... although they are measured using the same tool... and identified using the same units...

You sound very confused about length and distance.
Perhaps you'd like to try explaining the difference and similarities about them again?

Here's a reminder of how units are helpful in measurements:

Units of temperature are used to measure temperature.
Units of electricity are used to measure electricity.
Units of mass are used to measure mass.

Perhaps units of length are used to measure length?
And then... if units of length are also used to measure distance... perhaps distance is the same thing as length?

What do you think?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1204 by ICANT, posted 11-06-2018 1:40 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3256
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 1208 of 1221 (842724)
11-06-2018 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1205 by Pressie
11-06-2018 4:02 AM


Re: Creation
Pressie writes:

I think that you are trying to have a rational conversation with a tapeworm.

Oh, I'm not having a conversation with ICANT.
I like to teach fundamental concepts to anyone willing to learn - I find it fulfilling (and anything above "fundamental" is above my pay-grade anyway).
ICANT's issues just seem to align with that idea to me so much I can't pass it up. Well, the fundamental-explanations part... not the willing-to-learn part.
But that's the beauty of this form of communication. Just because I'm replying to ICANT doesn't mean anyone else can't read it... and judge for themselves.

I really don't care if ICANT learns anything or not - his history implies he will get frustrated with being shown to be wrong at a point where even he can't deny it. Then he'll simply demand that he's right for no reason, exclaim that the issue is settled without any support and then shy away from the discussion. It's happened every time I've discussed anything with ICANT. The latest is right here in this thread, even - I was explaining the concept of expansion-of-space starting at Message 676 and ending with my last message that was never replied to at Message 708.

That is not the actions of someone looking to honestly learn.
That is the actions of a frightened soul. Frightened of what, exactly - I cannot say. Which is a pity, because I like to help with those such things, too, if at all possible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1205 by Pressie, posted 11-06-2018 4:02 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4244
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1209 of 1221 (842728)
11-06-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1204 by ICANT
11-06-2018 1:40 AM


Re: Creation
Time is what is used to measure duration between events in existencee

Still confused. Time is what is measured. Clocks are what is used to measure duration between events in existence.

But how can you measure time when you can't tell me what it is?

With clocks. No problem.

Because units of time is what is used to measure that duration.

Clocks are what is used to measure that duration. Units of time are labels that we use to record the length of a duration.

You measure duration with a clock...

Yes. But that is not what you said above.

... which uses units of time

Clocks do not use units of time in the measurement process. They report the results in units of time, but that's an auxiliary function. Clocks can measure time without reporting anything, such as a timer on an explosive with no display but set to a time chosen randomly generated by random radioactive decay. It measures the time until the explosion, but doesn't report anything and nobody knows or can find out the duration of that time.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1204 by ICANT, posted 11-06-2018 1:40 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1210 of 1221 (842754)
11-07-2018 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1203 by ICANT
11-06-2018 12:52 AM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

I said that in Genesis 1:9, 10 all the dry land was in one place.


And you're wrong. It doesn't say that. It says that all of the water was in one place.

ICANT writes:

You tell me the earth was not divided in the days of Peleg but the people.

So why did Moses say in the next chapter:


Genesis 11 tells the story of the Tower of Babel. It's pretty obvious that that's what was meant by dividing the earth. Nobody ever thought it meant a physical division of the land until continental drift was confirmed.

Edited by ringo, : Speling.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1203 by ICANT, posted 11-06-2018 12:52 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1211 by ICANT, posted 11-08-2018 11:02 AM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6055
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1211 of 1221 (842786)
11-08-2018 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1210 by ringo
11-07-2018 11:27 AM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:


And you're wrong. It doesn't say that. It says that all of the water was in one place.

The oldest map of the world shows a land mass surrounded by salt water, and dates to the 6th century BC.

Which would agree that the dry land was in one place.

ringo writes:

Genesis 11 tells the story of the Tower of Babel. It's pretty obvious that that's what was meant by dividing the earth. Nobody ever thought it meant a physical division of the land until continental drift was confirmed.

What difference does it make what people thought or think today. The only thing that matters is what the text says.

If you want to dispute what I said about the division of the earth and the separation of the people you will have to take the Hebrew language and show where the words mean the same thing.

The Hebrew word translated divided in Genesis 10:25 and the Hebrew word translated scattered in Genesis chapter 11 are two different words and do not mean the same thing.

Either dispute the text or admit that you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1210 by ringo, posted 11-07-2018 11:27 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1212 by ringo, posted 11-08-2018 11:18 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1212 of 1221 (842787)
11-08-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1211 by ICANT
11-08-2018 11:02 AM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

The oldest map of the world shows a land mass surrounded by salt water, and dates to the 6th century BC.

Which would agree that the dry land was in one place.


It's an inaccurate map. It doesn't show the Americas at all.

ICANT writes:

What difference does it make what people thought or think today. The only thing that matters is what the text says.


I'm talking about what the text says. It is clear from the text that The "division of the earth" in Peleg's time was the dispersion of languages from Babel.

ICANT writes:

If you want to dispute what I said about the division of the earth and the separation of the people you will have to take the Hebrew language and show where the words mean the same thing.


There's no point in trying to discuss Hebrew with you when you're so confused about English.

ICANT writes:

Either dispute the text or admit that you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.


We already know that YOU don't know what you're talking about.

As I said, nobody thought of the continents being separated until continental drift was confirmed. That includes Hebrew scholars. Your version is NOT how Hebrew scholars read it.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1211 by ICANT, posted 11-08-2018 11:02 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
creation
Member
Posts: 421
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1213 of 1221 (842806)
11-08-2018 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1191 by Tangle
11-04-2018 1:10 PM


Re: Creation
GR does not tell us what time is like in the far universe. Your rants show you have nothing to post but religious attitude.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1191 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2018 1:10 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 421
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1214 of 1221 (842807)
11-08-2018 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1193 by ringo
11-04-2018 1:35 PM


Re: Creation
Noah knew when he saw that fresh leaf from a tree that the thousands of animals were no able to leave the ark. Fast growing grass and trees mean lots of food now. That is the best interpretation.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1193 by ringo, posted 11-04-2018 1:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1217 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-08-2018 6:36 PM creation has not yet responded
 Message 1219 by ringo, posted 11-09-2018 10:39 AM creation has not yet responded

    
creation
Member
Posts: 421
Joined: 01-14-2018


Message 1215 of 1221 (842808)
11-08-2018 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1194 by ringo
11-04-2018 1:40 PM


Re: Creation
It says the water and land were separated. It does not say that continents were formed then.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1194 by ringo, posted 11-04-2018 1:40 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1220 by ringo, posted 11-09-2018 10:46 AM creation has not yet responded

    
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