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Author Topic:   Creation
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1291 of 1358 (844601)
12-02-2018 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1286 by Tangle
12-02-2018 3:35 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Tangle

Tangle writes:

The universe does not have to have had a beginning, it could have always existed,. This is just one hypothesis:

How could the universe have always existed since it would have been in equilibrium a long time before 13.7 billion years ago?


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1286 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2018 3:35 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1299 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2018 5:43 PM ICANT has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1292 of 1358 (844602)
12-02-2018 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1290 by ICANT
12-02-2018 4:33 PM


Re: Creation
Just a quick question on your book---and keep in mind that I am a believer in God known through Jesus Christ whom I accepted into my heart in 1993.

You say to ringo:

I CANT writes:

If you have any scientific evidence that is not based on an assumption would you please present it and give me permission to use it in my book on creation?

He will likely claim that your beliefs are themselves an assertion and have no fact to back them up...in the sense of an objective, verifiable and replicable fact. I know your arguments...they make more sense than Faiths do...but your whole thing about owning guns and the right to bear arms takes credibility away from your otherwise sound and heartfelt beliefs regarding our Creator. I respect your age and your experience, though I fear that many church folks only hear (and only choose to listen) to like-minded beliefs and have no familiarity with the disciplines of the educated minds within secular science.

So my question: Do you believe that secular science and scientists are in any way deceived if they are not believers in Jesus Christ and/or the Bible?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1290 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2018 4:33 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1300 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2018 10:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1293 of 1358 (844603)
12-02-2018 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1290 by ICANT
12-02-2018 4:33 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

Creation is the subject of this discussion and there is nobody who has presented any scientific evidence supporting creation. Which is the origin of the universe.


We do have evidence about the origin of the universe. It doesn't point to any Creator.

ICANT writes:

If you have any scientific evidence that is not based on an assumption....


Assumptions are based on scientific evidence.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1290 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2018 4:33 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1295 by Phat, posted 12-02-2018 4:55 PM ringo has responded
 Message 1303 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2018 11:23 PM ringo has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1294 of 1358 (844605)
12-02-2018 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by caffeine
12-02-2018 1:54 PM


Re: Creation
Hi caffeine,

Google earliest artificial insemination preformed on humans

You get this information in the second paragraph.

quote:
The first recorded experiment with artificial insemination in humans occurred in the late 1700s, when Scottish-born surgeon John Hunter impregnated a women with her husband's sperm, resulting in a successful pregnancy.

Below is the actual address but I prefer you use the search above.
https://www.google.com/search?ei=NlIEXNOBFIWc_Qb03YB4&q=e...

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1289 by caffeine, posted 12-02-2018 1:54 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1307 by caffeine, posted 12-03-2018 3:35 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1295 of 1358 (844606)
12-02-2018 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1293 by ringo
12-02-2018 4:50 PM


Re: Creation
We do have evidence about the origin of the universe. It doesn't point to any Creator.
Actually it does. You trust your own rationality and preassumptions. Granted you use evidence when available.

Assumptions are based on scientific evidence.
Which is why you don't believe. The jury is still out on preponderance of evidence regarding a Creator or not. I don't see them having certainty beyond a reasonable doubt. Looks like a hung jury to me. Like i said before, at best we are both in the same boat. We don't know.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1293 by ringo, posted 12-02-2018 4:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1296 by ringo, posted 12-02-2018 5:03 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 1296 of 1358 (844609)
12-02-2018 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1295 by Phat
12-02-2018 4:55 PM


Re: Creation
Phat writes:

Actually it does.


How is that possible when you yourself claim that the creator is invisible?

Phat writes:

You trust your own rationality and preassumptions. Granted you use evidence when available.


And we're talking about evidence.

Phat writes:

The jury is still out on preponderance of evidence regarding a Creator or not.


No it isn't. There is no evidence for a creator - and by your own ideas about your creator, there can never be any.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1295 by Phat, posted 12-02-2018 4:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1297 by Phat, posted 12-02-2018 5:10 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11574
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1297 of 1358 (844610)
12-02-2018 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1296 by ringo
12-02-2018 5:03 PM


Evidence?
How is that possible when you yourself claim that the creator is invisible?
Because the "creator" that you point to is your own conclusions. I am the same way. As I said, we are in the same boat.
And we're talking about evidence.
As I have said before, an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If we don't get the default assumption, neither do you.

There is no evidence for a creator - and by your own ideas about your creator, there can never be any.
I'll give you that...up to this point in time. We can never know what there may or may not be at a future point. Besides...there is no evidence for Loki or a spaghetti monster. Can there ever be any? I don't know and neither do you. You have your ideas and I have mine.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1296 by ringo, posted 12-02-2018 5:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1298 by ringo, posted 12-02-2018 5:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1298 of 1358 (844613)
12-02-2018 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1297 by Phat
12-02-2018 5:10 PM


Re: Evidence?
Phat writes:

Because the "creator" that you point to is your own conclusions. I am the same way. As I said, we are in the same boat.


That doesn't answer the question. I confirm that I am in a boat from which no creator can be detected. I'm asking how YOU can claim that there is evidence for a creator when YOU also claim that the creator is invisible.

Phat writes:

As I have said before, an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


That's irrelevant here because you're claiming that there IS evidence.

Phat writes:

Besides...there is no evidence for Loki or a spaghetti monster. Can there ever be any?


Of course there can be. There can be evidence for anything that exists.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1297 by Phat, posted 12-02-2018 5:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 1302 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2018 11:03 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1299 of 1358 (844614)
12-02-2018 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by ICANT
12-02-2018 4:42 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

How could the universe have always existed since it would have been in equilibrium a long time before 13.7 billion years ago?

How the hell would I know? I'm no cosmic physicist and neither are you. I'm just pointing out to you that those that are physicists and do this work have differing hypotheses about the universe, there's not just the one that you've cherry picked because you imagine it helps your position.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2018 4:42 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1301 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2018 10:36 PM Tangle has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1300 of 1358 (844623)
12-02-2018 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1292 by Phat
12-02-2018 4:47 PM


Re: Creation
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

So my question: Do you believe that secular science and scientists are in any way deceived if they are not believers in Jesus Christ and/or the Bible?

If they are deceived it is by themselves.

You can not make a person do anything they don' want to do.
Neither can you make a person believe anything they don't want to believe.

Message 1293ringo says:

quote:
Assumptions are based on scientific evidence.

The definition of assumption is:

quote:
a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.

Therefore an assumption is not based on evidence of any kind.

For Hawking's instanton to be workable you have to assume it existed in an absence of existence as there would be no vacuum for it to begin to exist in. No evidence of any kind has ever been presented.

For the little pin point sized universe to exist requires an assumption that it existed. No evidence of any kind has ever been presented.

So when someone tells me an assumption is based on scientific evidence I begin to wonder how many loose screws they have upstairs.

Phat writes:

but your whole thing about owning guns and the right to bear arms takes credibility away from your otherwise sound and heartfelt beliefs regarding our Creator.

I joined the military and took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States of America. That Constitution says:

quote:
,the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Notice I put the comma before the t just like it is in the constitution. which makes the statement "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." separate from what preceded the comma.

Since I took an oath twice to uphold the Constitution I will always support the 2nd amendment to the Constitution. Had that amendment not been added the Constitution would never have been ratified. Because of where the people came from and the things they were subjected too.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by Phat, posted 12-02-2018 4:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1301 of 1358 (844624)
12-02-2018 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1299 by Tangle
12-02-2018 5:43 PM


Re: Creation
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

How the hell would I know? I'm no cosmic physicist and neither are you.

No I am no cosmologist but I quoted one, Alan Guth.

If you care to refute that the universe would be in equilibrium if it was eternal please do so.

The Big Bang Theory requires a beginning to exist some 13.7 billion years ago.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1299 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2018 5:43 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1304 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2018 3:37 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1302 of 1358 (844626)
12-02-2018 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1298 by ringo
12-02-2018 5:35 PM


Re: Evidence?
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

That doesn't answer the question. I confirm that I am in a boat from which no creator can be detected. I'm asking how YOU can claim that there is evidence for a creator when YOU also claim that the creator is invisible.

Who said God was invisible? It was not me.

Moses viewed the hinder parts of God in:

quote:
Exodus 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Jesus walked around on earth for 33 1/2 years He was God.

quote:
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

This was Jesus speaking.

ringo writes:

Of course there can be. There can be evidence for anything that exists.

The universe exists so present the evidence for the origin of the universe.

If the universe had no beginning and is eternal present the evidence that shows the universe would not be in equilibrium if it was eternal.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by ringo, posted 12-02-2018 5:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1305 by ringo, posted 12-03-2018 10:44 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6118
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1303 of 1358 (844627)
12-02-2018 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1293 by ringo
12-02-2018 4:50 PM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

We do have evidence about the origin of the universe. It doesn't point to any Creator.

I am going to assume that "WE" includes you.
Since you have the evidence would you please present it in this thread.

ringo writes:

Assumptions are based on scientific evidence.

Please explain how that, 'a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.' is based on any kind of evidence?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1293 by ringo, posted 12-02-2018 4:50 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1306 by ringo, posted 12-03-2018 10:52 AM ICANT has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6352
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1304 of 1358 (844631)
12-03-2018 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1301 by ICANT
12-02-2018 10:36 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

No I am no cosmologist but I quoted one, Alan Guth.

And I quoted another couple that said the universe could have always existed.

If you care to refute that the universe would be in equilibrium if it was eternal please do so.

Those aruments can only take place between the very few people that understand the physics, neither you nor I do. All we can do is honestly report on the work as it proceeds.

You have no business picking a side that you think supports your religious argument whilst pretending that it's settled science and that no other position exists it isn't and it doesn't.

The Big Bang Theory requires a beginning to exist some 13.7 billion years ago.

You haven't the first idea what the Big Bang is, never mind whether anything existed before it. You're miles out of your depth arguing dishonestly.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1301 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2018 10:36 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1308 by ICANT, posted 12-04-2018 7:56 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15740
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1305 of 1358 (844644)
12-03-2018 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1302 by ICANT
12-02-2018 11:03 PM


Re: Evidence?
ICANT writes:

Who said God was invisible?


Paul did:
quote:
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

The author of Job did:
quote:
Job 9:11 Were He to pass by me, I would not see Him; Were He to move past me, I would not perceive Him.

ICANT writes:

The universe exists so present the evidence for the origin of the universe.


quote:
Evidence supporting the Big Bang theory includes the presence of cosmic microwave background radiation, visual observation of redshifted objects and the abundance of primordial elements found throughout the universe. link

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1302 by ICANT, posted 12-02-2018 11:03 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1309 by ICANT, posted 12-04-2018 10:25 PM ringo has responded

  
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