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Author Topic:   Creation
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3633
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 1426 of 1473 (845630)
12-18-2018 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1425 by ICANT
12-18-2018 3:52 AM


Re: Creation
I won't play this silly game with you, ICANT. If you care to counter the evidence then please do.

Show us the evidence in favor of your god proposal. Show us the evidence of your god as an absolute truth. Show us the evidence in favor of there being any kind of absolute truth. Show us the evidence of any religious supernatural anything anywhere in this universe.

When there is no evidence for these things anywhere despite our having looked diligently for millennia then we can tentatively conclude, and with a great deal of confidence, that such things are not.

Show us otherwise.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1425 by ICANT, posted 12-18-2018 3:52 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1427 by ICANT, posted 12-18-2018 11:52 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1427 of 1473 (845647)
12-18-2018 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1426 by AZPaul3
12-18-2018 7:34 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Paul

AZPaul writes:

I won't play this silly game with you, ICANT.

You have posted 21 posts to this thread.

Message 713 Raisins
Message 733 Raisins
Message 741 Raisins
Message 744 First second of universe.
Message 747 Size of pinpoint.
Message 750 Raisins
Message 751 Reply NoNukes on my motives.
Message 756 Age of universe.
Message 757 Statement "we don't know yet".
Message 759 Balloon analogy.
Message 763 Assertion about existence of God.
Message 764 "Physics is a human estimate".
Message 773 "deliberate ignorance is dishonest"
Message 780 Reply to GDR Like and dislike of infinities.
Message 801 Reply to GDR "Something very wrong with GR. evidence a clip. Concerning singularities that is supposed to exist in the universe. Message 1388 Assertion universe much smaller than an atom.
Message 1412 There is no absolute truth.
Message 1420 Run around about objective, verifiable, evidence.
Message 1421 Reply to Phat No problem with people being wrong.
Message 1424 Assertion evidence is there.
Message 1426 Silly game

The only evidence presented by you other than you personal beliefs and assertions was the clip in Message 801. That clip discusses a black hole being a singularity. If the inference is that the singularity that existed at T=0, place the math breaks down and reveals no data is a black hole. Where did it come from? Where did it exist? If it began to exist, why?

So where is any evidence that I am supposed to be able to look at?
Since I can not find any.
God Bless,

Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed message number with proper clip


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1426 by AZPaul3, posted 12-18-2018 7:34 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1428 by Phat, posted 12-18-2018 12:06 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 1430 by AZPaul3, posted 12-18-2018 1:10 PM ICANT has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11882
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1428 of 1473 (845649)
12-18-2018 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1427 by ICANT
12-18-2018 11:52 AM


Re: Creation
I fixed your link to the video. It was ibn post 801 rather than 773.

ICANT, to AZ writes:

So where is any evidence that I am supposed to be able to look at?

Your critics will use the same argument in regards to God. They can't see Him and won't accept the "evidence" of Romans 1:18. I can see your argument, however. I don't think either side will ever settle this one.

One side demands objectively verifiable evidence. The other side maintains that it should then be quid pro quo since the "maths break down" in that regard.

Maybe it would be better if you quit trying to reason with them and simply prayed for them instead. Romans 1:18 seems as if it is your only answer.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1427 by ICANT, posted 12-18-2018 11:52 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1429 by ringo, posted 12-18-2018 12:14 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 1431 by ICANT, posted 12-19-2018 11:39 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15986
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1429 of 1473 (845652)
12-18-2018 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1428 by Phat
12-18-2018 12:06 PM


Re: Creation
Phat writes:

They can't see Him and won't accept the "evidence" of Romans 1:18.


Well, let's see:
quote:
Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
The evidence shows that the wrath of God is aimed at believers and unbelievers alike.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1428 by Phat, posted 12-18-2018 12:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3633
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 1430 of 1473 (845658)
12-18-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1427 by ICANT
12-18-2018 11:52 AM


Re: Creation
If the inference is that the singularity that existed at T=0, place the math breaks down and reveals no data is a black hole. Where did it come from? Where did it exist? If it began to exist, why?

Where did it come from? Nobody knows. Not me. Not you.

Where did it exist? Can't say it did until it manifested itself into this universe.

If it began to exist, why? Nobody knows. Not me. Not you.

All pending further observations, of course.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1427 by ICANT, posted 12-18-2018 11:52 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1432 by ICANT, posted 12-19-2018 12:04 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1431 of 1473 (845724)
12-19-2018 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1428 by Phat
12-18-2018 12:06 PM


Re: Creation
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

I don't think either side will ever settle this one.

But it will be settled.

If God is the answer when a person dies they will meet Him face to face.

If God does not exist it won't make any difference.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1428 by Phat, posted 12-18-2018 12:06 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1436 by Stile, posted 12-20-2018 11:37 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1432 of 1473 (845725)
12-19-2018 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1430 by AZPaul3
12-18-2018 1:10 PM


Re: Creation
Hi Paul

AZPaul writes:

All pending further observations, of course.

How do you observe something that is supposed to have happened 13.8 billion years in the past?

We do have a partial description of things that happened in the beginning written down in a book by a man that spent 80 days and nights in a mountain with God.

Many of those things that were written down 3800 years ago has been verified by modern science.

Yet you and others tell me that is not evidence. Even though it made predictions before any one knew the earth was not flat, that has been proven to be true.

When science has zero evidence of any kind.

Paul can you fathom what non existence infers?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1430 by AZPaul3, posted 12-18-2018 1:10 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1433 by AZPaul3, posted 12-19-2018 1:27 PM ICANT has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3633
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 1433 of 1473 (845729)
12-19-2018 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1432 by ICANT
12-19-2018 12:04 PM


Re: Creation
How do you observe something that is supposed to have happened 13.8 billion years in the past?

How do you observe the sun? You look at it. We now know the speed of light is finite and the sun is so far away that the light we see now left the surface of the sun some 8 minutes ago. So, given the strength of present technology, we can look out at the heavens and observe to the farthest reaches of our observable universe. And since these people aren't stupid, they have figured out that the light we gather in our instruments is shifted into lower frequencies by distance and expansion and we can identify light that left some distant galaxies 13.8 +- billion light-years out. That means 13.8 billion years ago.

From there we have super accurate math equations that allow us to "see" even further back than that. One of the things these equations tell us is that there was a time when the universe changed from opaque (light wasn't free to flow unhindered) to transparent and that this light, once it was free to fly across the universe, could still be seen but is frequency shifted from the gamma down into the microwave. Powerful equations if that prediction were found to be real.

Sure enough, we found it. And that light, which we can still gather and analyse, tells us what the universe is made of and its states of energy back 13.8 +- billion years ago. From there we can use those same equations, proven so accurate in so many ways so many times, to extrapolate what the universe most probably looked like even further back in time.

Many of those things that were written down 3800 years ago has been verified by modern science.

Yet you and others tell me that is not evidence.

It still isn't. We know how these stories get started, get embellished and get repeated. The fact that some of the stories contain some things we know, and have always known, to be true means nothing in the same way Huckleberry Finn can be seen to be true just because it adequately describes the Mississippi river.

The facts I gave about the universe, above, also come from multiple independent lines of inquiry all converging on the same conclusions. You have a tome of suspect myths without any outside independent corroborating lines of evidence. You have NO evidence. Period.

Paul can you fathom what non existence infers?

Doesn't matter what either you or I care to believe, comprehend, fathom or not. Reality is independent of our thoughts.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1432 by ICANT, posted 12-19-2018 12:04 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1434 by ICANT, posted 12-20-2018 12:10 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1434 of 1473 (845754)
12-20-2018 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1433 by AZPaul3
12-19-2018 1:27 PM


Re: Creation
Hi Paul

AZPaul writes:

From there we have super accurate math equations

You know those equations are super accurate because....

Einstein proved you can make figures say anything you want them to say.

AZPaul writes:

The fact that some of the stories contain some things we know, and have always known,

How long have we known that the life of the flesh is in the blood?

How long have we known that the universe was getting bigger?

AZPaul writes:

The facts

What facts?

AZPaul writes:

Reality is independent of our thoughts.

Reality what is reality?

Didn't Einstein say "reality was an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."?

When reality becomes a truth then you have a fact.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1433 by AZPaul3, posted 12-19-2018 1:27 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1435 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2018 1:47 AM ICANT has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3633
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 1435 of 1473 (845755)
12-20-2018 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1434 by ICANT
12-20-2018 12:10 AM


Re: Creation
You know those equations are super accurate because....

These people aren't stupid, Reverend, and they have tested the theories against all manner of lab and natural occurrences. These tests have been in the news for many decades, some even with wide popular appeal. If you can't name at least 2 then you haven't been paying attention and need to conduct additional research about the dozens more.

Einstein proved you can make figures say anything you want them to say.

No, he didn't prove it. He quipped it.

But it is right. You can make math do almost anything. That's why matching against observation and strong long-term (like decades) of peer-review are so important. The power, Reverend, is once you have a theory that models past observations accurately their predictive powers become more accurate as well. Having tested those predictive powers and found not one not-right (yet) we can confidently model systems where our present tech cannot show us if we are right or not (yet). We can probe the many mysteries still open to us, see what those models would result in and then find some way to test for those results or something completely different.

How long have we known that the life of the flesh is in the blood?

Since the first pre-proto-cave man watched his friend bleed out dead after being gored in a hunt. Maybe even before.

Enough with the pointed, and rather pointless, questions.

Didn't Einstein say "reality was an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."?

Apparently not.

When reality becomes a truth then you have a fact.

Reality is all facts everywhere through all time whether we have discovered them yet or not.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1434 by ICANT, posted 12-20-2018 12:10 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1437 by ICANT, posted 12-21-2018 3:45 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3346
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 1436 of 1473 (845766)
12-20-2018 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1431 by ICANT
12-19-2018 11:39 AM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

If God is the answer when a person dies they will meet Him face to face.

If God does not exist it won't make any difference.

That's not true, the Lord works in mysterious ways.

Maybe God exists and judges everyone on how naive they were. That is - those who didn't believe in Him because there was no evidence are kept around as his trusted advisers. Those who believed in Him with no evidence are put in the Pit of Fools. But don't worry, it's kinda fun - there's balls.

Maybe God doesn't exist, but something else does and they put believers in the Pit of Fools too.

But, in any case, I prefer this version:

quote:
If God does not exist, I haven't wasted any of this life on a fantasy.

If God does exist, well, that would be cool too.


At least it doesn't make belief in God seem like some sort of threat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1431 by ICANT, posted 12-19-2018 11:39 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1438 by ICANT, posted 12-21-2018 3:57 PM Stile has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1437 of 1473 (845883)
12-21-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1435 by AZPaul3
12-20-2018 1:47 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Paul

AZPaul writes:

These people aren't stupid,

I believe they are highly educated and have great book learning. I just do not believe they have common sense.

AZPaul writes:

These tests have been in the news for many decades, some even with wide popular appeal.

Just what tests are you talking about be specific.

AZPaul writes:

If you can't name at least 2 then you haven't been paying attention and need to conduct additional research about the dozens more.

I don't remember 1 that you have mentioned yet.
I do remember that you have asserted over and over they have been done.

AZPaul writes:

The power, Reverend, is once you have a theory that models past observations accurately their predictive powers become more accurate as well.

What theory does that?

AZPaul writes:

Since the first pre-proto-cave man watched his friend bleed out dead after being gored in a hunt. Maybe even before.

He just knew he bleed to death. He did not know why the loss of the blood caused him to stop breathing.

George Washington was bleed to death over 10 hours by taking over 80 oz of blood which was over 1/2 of his blood. While treating him for a closing throat and pneumonia they had all kinds of fancy names to blame his death on. But with over 50% of his blood gone over half the cells of his body was getting no energy, oxygen or removal of waste. Making it impossible for his body to combat his problems.

AZPaul writes:

Enough with the pointed, and rather pointless, questions.

But it is not a pointless question.

The operation of the cardiovascular system was discovered between 1578-1657 it was improved upon in the early 1900's and blood letting was stopped as medical treatment. The blood provides means for the white corpuscle to fight against infections, and the red corpuscle to carry energy and oxygen to the cells of the body and remove the carbon dioxide waste to the lungs.

Yet it was stated or predicted if you prefer that the life of the flesh was in the blood. Without energy and oxygen and removal of the carbon dioxide waste from the body the cells could not survive. So Moses recorded a scientific fact 2800 years before it was discovered. How did he have that knowledge then to be able to write it down? Nobody had that knowledge at that time but somebody that knew had to tell him.

AZPaul writes:

Reality is all facts everywhere through all time whether we have discovered them yet or not.

I can agree that all facts whether known or unknown is what makes up reality.

I know God exists but many here don't.

When the death angel comes and claims them reality will set in and the fact that God does exist will be discovered by them.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1435 by AZPaul3, posted 12-20-2018 1:47 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1439 by Tangle, posted 12-21-2018 4:44 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 1440 by AZPaul3, posted 12-21-2018 5:20 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6180
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1438 of 1473 (845884)
12-21-2018 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1436 by Stile
12-20-2018 11:37 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Stile

Stile writes:

That's not true, the Lord works in mysterious ways.

His wonders to preform.

Stile writes:

Maybe God exists and judges everyone on how naive they were

If that was the case He would have told us.

Stile writes:

Maybe God doesn't exist, but something else does and they put believers in the Pit of Fools too.

If that was the case that something else would have told us.

Stile writes:

quote:
If God does not exist, I haven't wasted any of this life on a fantasy.
If God does exist, well, that would be cool too.

Why would it be cool to live your life here and even enjoy it to even a hundred years and die, find out there is a God and you would have to spend the rest of eternity in the lake of fire?

Stile writes:

At least it doesn't make belief in God seem like some sort of threat.

God does not make threats. He only deals with facts.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1436 by Stile, posted 12-20-2018 11:37 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1473 by Stile, posted 12-30-2018 10:45 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6497
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 1439 of 1473 (845885)
12-21-2018 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1437 by ICANT
12-21-2018 3:45 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:

He just knew he bleed to death. He did not know why the loss of the blood caused him to stop breathing.

George Washington was bleed to death over 10 hours by taking over 80 oz of blood which was over 1/2 of his blood. While treating him for a closing throat and pneumonia they had all kinds of fancy names to blame his death on. But with over 50% of his blood gone over half the cells of his body was getting no energy, oxygen or removal of waste. Making it impossible for his body to combat his problems.

The operation of the cardiovascular system was discovered between 1578-1657 it was improved upon in the early 1900's and blood letting was stopped as medical treatment. The blood provides means for the white corpuscle to fight against infections, and the red corpuscle to carry energy and oxygen to the cells of the body and remove the carbon dioxide waste to the lungs.

Yet it was stated or predicted if you prefer that the life of the flesh was in the blood. Without energy and oxygen and removal of the carbon dioxide waste from the body the cells could not survive. So Moses recorded a scientific fact 2800 years before it was discovered. How did he have that knowledge then to be able to write it down? Nobody had that knowledge at that time but somebody that knew had to tell him.

Moses - like everyone on the planet before him and after him - knew that if you slit an animal's throat, its blood drains out and it dies. If you don't do that it doesn't die. He did not declare a scientific fact, he was saying something that everyone knew. Had Moses explained *why* the goat dies as you quoted...

quote:
The blood provides means for the white corpuscle to fight against infections, and the red corpuscle to carry energy and oxygen to the cells of the body and remove the carbon dioxide waste to the lungs etc.

... then I'd be impressed. But in fact, there's absolutely nothing in the bible that couldn't have been written by someone a few thousand years ago. Nothing.

Not that they could even write of course.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1437 by ICANT, posted 12-21-2018 3:45 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1441 by ICANT, posted 12-24-2018 12:36 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 1448 by Phat, posted 12-25-2018 6:07 AM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3633
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 1440 of 1473 (845888)
12-21-2018 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1437 by ICANT
12-21-2018 3:45 PM


Re: Creation
I believe they are highly educated and have great book learning. I just do not believe they have common sense.

And with good reason. Common sense has been shown so often to be so very wrong.

Just what tests are you talking about be specific.

I'll give you one. Only one.

Here.

There are hundreds more for you to learn about if you really are interested in how we know these things. A course in physics at a local school might be helpful for you. I will not be giving you such a course here.

What theory does that?

General relativity, QED, QCD, Quantum Field Theory, Evolution, Germ theory, Plate Tectonics ...

Lots of them.

One of the things science requires, yes REQUIRES, of a model in order to be considered a "Theory" is its ability to predict accurately. And peer review REQUIRES that there be no doubt that the theory made the prediction and that the resulting action was verified as correct multiple times before peer review is satisfied.

There are many web sites from schools and other places that have entire curricula in this stuff complete with the experiments and all their results just waiting for you to dive in.

But with over 50% of his blood gone over half the cells of his body was getting no energy, oxygen or removal of waste. Making it impossible for his body to combat his problems.

Ya, he bled to death just like poor Thag in my example. Even ignorant of the specifics of blood loss people a hundred thousand years ago could see that blood and life were connected.

That's one example of where common sense was not wrong.

So what?

So Moses recorded a scientific fact 2800 years before it was discovered. How did he have that knowledge then to be able to write it down? Nobody had that knowledge at that time but somebody that knew had to tell him.

No. He probably knew, like most everyone else (they may have been ignorant but they were not stupid), that when a human or an animal bled too much it died. Can't help but notice that when you live on this planet.

Such knowledge at that time doesn't give any special status, let alone spiritual or supernatural insight, to the myths of the bible.

Nobody had that knowledge at that time but somebody that knew had to tell him.

BS

I can agree that all facts whether known or unknown is what makes up reality.

I know God exists but many here don't.

When the death angel comes and claims them reality will set in and the fact that God does exist will be discovered by them.

So goes the mantra. The article of faith. The belief without evidence, without reason, without reality.

BTW, if we don't talk again before hand, Merry Christmas, ICANT.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1437 by ICANT, posted 12-21-2018 3:45 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1443 by ICANT, posted 12-24-2018 2:14 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
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