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Author Topic:   This belief thing
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 114 of 162 (783894)
05-09-2016 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Modulous
05-09-2016 3:16 PM


I think modern Islamic scholarship has evolved on some issues.
The tendency seems to be to see the Hebrew Bible as an imitation of much earlier events (that might not have even happened in Palestine). The Koran used Hebrew Bible prophets & characters but the current trends, among Muslims, seem to be to see those as imitations of earlier humans (say 2000 years earlier and perhaps in Arabia or Persia).
The Koran (and Muhammad) requires belief in the Torah of Moses, the Psalms of David, the Prophets, and the Gospels of Jesus in order to be a Muslim.
But the "Old Testament" people are put in a different time and place I think.
I hear lots of American black Muslims saying this anyway. (and lots of conspiracy theories on why the blackness of Biblical characters were covered up and how modern Jews are just Greeks and Germans imitating Black Prophets mentioned in the Koran and the Bible. But many black Christians say the same thing, except they say "Jews were black" which is actually quite simple because at least "Jews" are a common point of reference when talking to Christians. Many black Muslims have conspiracy theories so elaborate that I get confused. It's like they know the name of every tribe in the Bible and relate them to every ancient people. "The Hyksos were black" then "Romans, Greeks, Germans flooded the Middle east and North Africa" is all I can remember. )
I think even Arab Muslims now question the traditional time and place issues.
Now they say that there is a possibility of Solomon living in Arabia perhaps 5000 BCE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Modulous, posted 05-09-2016 3:16 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Modulous, posted 05-09-2016 5:23 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 121 of 162 (783974)
05-10-2016 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Modulous
05-09-2016 5:23 PM


Solomon lived where and when?
I honestly don't know much about this issue but understand that I wasn't saying (certain modern)Muslims call the Hebrew Bible prophets "imposters". I was saying they call them "imitators", which is considered an attribute of a (Jewish) culture that admires the (once divinely) revealed (then lost by say 1000 BCE) events (say 10,000 years ago). The Koran doesn't put chronological dates on those same people and events the Hebrew Bible does.
Here is one site that I found on google.
quote:
King Solomon’s Vanishing Temple
Yitzhak Reiter
....
the appearance in November 2010 on the Information Ministry web page of the Palestinian Authority government of a paper written by Al-Mutawakel Taha, a Ministry official, denying any Jewish historical association with the Western (outer) Wall of the Second Temple Mount.
....
Most Israelis were first exposed to the Palestinian denial of history in July 2000. According to U.S. negotiator Dennis Ross, when Jerusalem was discussed during the second Camp David summit, Palestinian Authority leader Yasir Arafat asserted that the Temple never existed in Jerusalem, but rather in Nablus. Another senior Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erekat, asserted, the Jerusalem Temple is a Jewish invention.
....
A thorough study of contemporary Arab and Muslim public discourse, books and other publications shows that the denial process is widespread in the Arab and Muslim world.1 The following story gives the flavor of this process. On September 25, 2003 a delegation of Arab leaders from northern Israel visited Arafat at his Muqata‘a compound in Ramallah to show solidarity with the Palestinian Al-Aqsa Intifada (the second Palestinian uprising), which started in September 2000. The guests were surprised when Arafat lectured them on al-Aqsa, insisting that no Jewish Temple had existed in either Jerusalem or Nablus; rather, he claimed it had been in Yemen. Arafat said that he himself had visited Yemen and been shown the site upon which Solomon’s Temple had stood. A year earlier, another Palestinian public figure, Haj Zaki al-Ghul (Jerusalem’s shadow mayor from Amman), voiced a similar claim. In a 2002 lecture at the annual al-Quds conference in Jordan, al-Ghul stated that King Solomon had ruled over the Arabian Peninsula, and that it was there, not in Jerusalem, that he built his Temple.
It was not al-Ghul, however, who introduced Yasir Arafat to this Palestinian version of invented history and it was not even another Palestinian. The honor belongs to Kamal Salibi, professor emeritus at the American University of Beirut and subsequently Director of the Royal Institute for Interfaith Studies in Amman. By any Middle Eastern measure, Salibi is an unusual person. Born in Beirut a Protestant Christian, he earned his doctorate at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London under the direction of Bernard Lewis. Many years distant from Lewis’s mentorship, in 1985 Salibi published The Bible Came from Arabia, in which he claimed that the Children of Israel originated in the western Arabian Peninsula. This strange theory, which is largely based on the discovery and interpretation of an obscure sundial, lacks support from any other scholar. Salibi claimed that Biblical Jerusalem was located in the Arabian Nimas highlands, halfway from Mecca to Yemen. This is an instructive example of how a single book, however esoteric its theory, can have significant influence when one side of a polemical discourse finds it useful.
....
1See my Jerusalem and Its Role in Islamic Solidarity (Palgrave Macmillan, 2008).
1See my Jerusalem and Its Role in Islamic Solidarity (Palgrave Macmillan, 2008).
2The Arabic source for this and all subsequent citations in this essay are available from the author upon request.
3See Forbidden.
4See Islamic Aqsa Blog - General Blog Info, article 232.
Yitzhak Reiter teaches in the department of political science of Ashkelon Academic College and in the conflict studies program of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He is also a senior fellow of the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies and the Truman Research Institute for the Advancement of Peace of the Hebrew University. His most recent book is Jerusalem and its Role in Islamic Solidarity (Palgrave Macmillan and the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies, 2008).
This is a long article and I left a lot out.
Go to 125 street in Harlem (even the east side, but also on the west where the Apollo Theatre is)and you will see lots of black nationalists selling all sorts of books and DVDs on black nationalism. While they are mostly race-based conspiracy theory books, there are a few that don't mention black issues at all. The Bible Unearthed , by Israel Finkelstein, is always a book for sale.
Some more extreme scholars say that the 1st Temple Jews didn't exist, and Jews came from Babylon in the 6th century BCE, then were made white by Europeans in following centuries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Modulous, posted 05-09-2016 5:23 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Modulous, posted 05-10-2016 8:34 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2016 6:11 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 124 of 162 (784061)
05-11-2016 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Modulous
05-10-2016 8:34 PM


Re: Solomon lived where and when?
quote:
OK, that's the 'What' of your discourse - as to the why, I'm still unclear.
Salibi's ideas are not exactly 'new', they're from the early 80s. And yes, they have been used for propaganda purposes to dispute the validity of Israel.
I'm not sure of the connection to my post. That religious beliefs are diverse? Were you challenging the notion that the Koran describes incidents at some of the same places as the Bible because some people think those places exist at different coordinates? I'm just unclear as to why you brought it up sorry.
In post 110 you said:
quote:
"It's not really a history book. The Bible is a library of books, not all of them are history books."
....
"It goes onto the fall of the Midianites for turning their back on God.
It also has the story of the Pharaoh and Moses."
....
"As shown above, everything from the fall through Noah, Moses, Abraham, all of that.
Not only that but it specifically cites the Old Testament as Holy Scripture."
....
"The Book of Psalms gets the thumbs up:"
....
"I tell you about a God who created Adam, who was tempted by Satan, punished by God. One of his descendants, Noah was given a heads up by God before flooding the world. God went to Abraham, and he went to Moses, he spoke with King Solomon and King David, destroyed the Midianites, etc etc and then tell you about a God called Allah
who created Adam, who was tempted by Satan, punished by Allah. One of his descendants, Noah was given a heads up by Allah before flooding the world. Allah went to Abraham, and he went to Moses, he spoke with King Solomon and King David, destroyed the Midianites, etc etc"
It has been standard for Muslims to see the Hebrew Bible as largely written close to the time of the events and in the same local as the events. It has been standard to see the "inspired" prophets (of which the Koran mentions like 30 or so) as not very far removed from the books in the Hebrew Bible that bear their name.
It might not be the case anymore (for whatever reason).
I was just making a clarification of your post because, for example, Muslims have told me that the real Psalms of David would have heaven, hell, resurrection, and judgment day mentioned. And they could very well have existed long ago and in a place far away from Palestine.
Additionally.
It should also be said that it is more difficult to disprove Koranic descriptions of events (except the flood), especially if the Adam story is a metaphor. There are no chronological markers which can make it easily falsifiable. The Tower of Babel story is absent, so that helps the Koran a lot when it comes to standing up to critics.
quote:
Salibi's ideas are not exactly 'new', they're from the early 80s. And yes, they have been used for propaganda purposes to dispute the validity of Israel.
I'm not sure Israel is the main reason many Muslims argue these points. Many are actually quite critical of the theory of evolution plus are sensitive to attacks against the history presented in both the Bible and Koran. This reality doesn't have a visible internet presence, but - truth me - it is real never the less.
And (multi generational American) blacks have a monumental obsession with race and historical issues. There is a very big difference between African immigrants and multi-generational African Americans. Black Africans , on the one hand, see Ethiopia as part of the Middle East, while (multi-generational) African Americans will call anybody a racist who doesn't think even Egyptians and Palestinians/ Israelites were 100% black African. Black Africans will read the same history as everybody else, while most African Americans think standard history books are racist. Go to a public library in any black area (and there are many) in New York, then take a look at books on the library shelf. You will be hard pressed to find any standard history books of the Ancient Near East because they are deemed racist. I'm not saying that there is a huge amount of "alternative history" (on the Middle East and such) books in the libraries (the kinds sold on street corners and the most obsessed over), but there are some along with the legions of books on library shelves on more recent black history and issues.
The white skin of present-day Jews is quite an obsession among blacks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Modulous, posted 05-10-2016 8:34 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Modulous, posted 05-11-2016 1:18 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 125 of 162 (784063)
05-11-2016 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by PaulK
05-11-2016 6:11 AM


Re: Solomon lived where and when?
quote:
That's a book on archaeology and the Bible and pretty much in the mainstream (of archaeologists), if maybe tending a little towards the minimalists. It doesn't suggest that the kingdoms of Israel and Judah were anywhere but Palestine.
But is allows for the possibility of no know "Jews" before 700 to 750 BCE.
A major obsession among black Muslims. (black Christians will be obsessed over the race of Israelites but never question the history).
It is too complicated to explain, but I can assure you it matters a lot.
There is an obsession almost to the point of complete total saturization.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2016 6:11 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2016 1:08 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 128 of 162 (784073)
05-11-2016 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Modulous
05-11-2016 1:18 PM


Modulous and my point. Attempted by me. Here goes.
quote:
So? I mean if the Koran is believed to be referring to other times and places then the Bible will be believed to also refer to other times and places. The same other times and places as with the Koran. So even believers that differ in where and when things occurred according to history and geography, they still agree that the Koran and Bible are referring to the same things.
Let me think of the best parallel to explain what I mean. Lets take the world's oldest monotheistic religion for a parallel. Go to a library and look up Zoroastrian in the Encyclopedia Britannica (both in the macropaedia and micropaedia). You will see that they don't even consider Zoroaster to have lived earlier than c. 630 to c550 BCE. (628-551 is standard). It's (macropaedia article) the most scholarly source on Zoroastrianism around (except for the super rare Encyclopedia Iranica), but it considers the traditional date as 100% secure.
Except the traditional date is now believed to be based on a mistakenly identified person as a chronological marker. (as of the 1980s, this has been true) A king to be specific. A Zoroastrian king to be more specific. A much revered and beloved king to be even more specific.
Vishtaspa - Wikipedia
Now linguists date the holy texts (Gathas)which first mentioned him as far back as 1800 BCE and much later than 1500 BCE. Historians date the text around 1500 BCE to 1000 BCE.
NOW THE HYPOTHETICAL.
Now imagine if this c.600 BCE Vishtaspa had many legends built around him and if these legends made it into the texts of a new religion that started several hundred years after his life. Now we have a new c.200 BCE religion with religious texts that have a famous (and beloved) King Vishtaspa as one of the founders of the national culture based on the "true revelation".
Imagine if the original c.1500 religion, with the original King Vishtaspa, died off and no textual fragments remained nor were they alluded to in any tradition (nothing extant from 1500 to 600 BCE for us to discover). Nothing that gives any clue that there was a king that lived before 600 BCE that is.
Then a revelation came one day to a Joseph Ali living in c.900 AD England which told a "pure" religion with a King Vishtaspa from 1523 BCE in western Afghanistan (which happened to be India in 900 AD I suppose). Except the dates weren't mentioned. Just the character. And then the surviving religion (which started in 200 BC and is still with extant texts unlike the 1500 BCE religion) was mentioned, in the revelation, as "inspired" and in the same (garbled)tradition, but corrupted and full of man-made additions, and wrapped around a nationalism created by the kings of a narrow strip of land that the (corrupted) religion took hold. Too make even matters worse, a priesthood developed which created a caste system to empower their succession for eternity, except the priestly succession was just as man-made as the priestly system itself, not to mention that the priestly texts were made up by the priests as much as the (nationalistic & dynastic supported/invented) national chronicle religious texts were made up by the monarchs. But not all of this was explicitly mentioned in the revelation, but there were implicit allusions at times.
END HYPOTHETICAL.
Now we have a situation where Islam occupies the same place as this hypothetical c.1500 religion mentioned above. That's how they see things. Their scholars might have never considered this situation before the rise of 2 movements.
1st
First, the rise of modern scholarship, which has called into question that dates of the texts, and modern archaeology, which finds an Israel from 1200 BCE - 730 BCE but no Judah until terrified Israelite refugees, fearing ever more endless Assyrian assaults, turned the highland hamlet Jerusalem into a population center around 750-720 BCE and the Holy Bible was written (see introduction to the Finkelstein book for the atmospherics surrounding the origins of the texts).
2nd
The Nation of Islam movement which challenged the Jewish texts (not to mention the people) and their claims of representing the original events.
Perhaps a 3rd factor could be the Zionist state and its treatment of the native Muslims.
It raises new issues for the evolution verses creation debate. Islam is becoming a very large religion and views are changing.
It is very much on topic IMO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Modulous, posted 05-11-2016 1:18 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Genomicus, posted 05-11-2016 5:49 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 135 by Modulous, posted 05-11-2016 6:20 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 129 of 162 (784074)
05-11-2016 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by PaulK
05-11-2016 1:08 PM


Re: Solomon lived where and when?
quote:
[Lamark]
But is allows for the possibility of no know "Jews" before 700 to 750 BCE.
[PaulK]
I don't think so. I certainly don't remember it offering any reason to believe that. If you have anything in mind I would appreciate exact quotes - and I will check them.
He said that Jerusalem only had a few hundred people during the 13th to 9th century BCE and only about 1000 by 750 BCE.
Many question if Judah is simply a place name and and whether Judah had "Judeans" or "Jews".
Judah isn't mentioned at all till after 750 BCE.
It could have been an imitation name of 5000 year old Arabians or Africans. Either an eponymous tribesman or simply a famous figure that left no offspring.
(So the newly Islamic theory goes)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2016 1:08 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2016 4:28 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 131 of 162 (784076)
05-11-2016 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by PaulK
05-11-2016 4:28 PM


Re: Solomon lived where and when?
Why read the ancient Greek & Roman historians which present traditions of a Zoroastrian King Vishtaspa being a follower of Zoroaster during the prophet's lifetime?
Vishtaspa actually existed during the 628-551 period which was then the assume life of Zoroaster.
David means beloved
Solomon means peaceful.
The Biblical texts could date much later than the 10th century.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2016 4:28 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2016 4:53 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 134 of 162 (784080)
05-11-2016 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by PaulK
05-11-2016 4:53 PM


responce on archaeological evidence.
[ Remove content. --Admin ]
Edited by Admin, : Remove content.

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 Message 132 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2016 4:53 PM PaulK has not replied

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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 137 of 162 (784184)
05-13-2016 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by PaulK
05-11-2016 4:53 PM


Re: Solomon lived where and when?
My post went into some "PM" or something.
I did a link to a Wikipedia article on "Solomon's Temple". (I think)
It referenced page numbers where Finkelstein apparently placed the 1st Temple at a later date than the 10th century. (the date seemed to be quite late)
My responses and posts have been deleted a lot lately.
I was planning to get back to the reincarnation thread, but doubt that will be possible since I can't quote others to show viewpoints.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2016 4:53 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2016 5:26 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied
 Message 142 by Admin, posted 05-14-2016 6:31 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 138 of 162 (784185)
05-13-2016 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by PaulK
05-11-2016 4:53 PM


Remembered one more thing from my "dissapeared" post?
I mentioned that the Bible says that the entire northern kingdom of Israel was shipped to Iranian cities.
Then easterners were placed in Samaria as a replacement.
in 721 BCE?
See 2 Kings 17 (?)
Finkelstein's book starts out describing the refugees that filled Jerusalem around the same 720-730 date, and their endeavor to write a history. They came from the northern kingdom.
I'll let you know if I remember any more of my post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2016 4:53 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Tangle, posted 05-13-2016 4:54 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 140 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2016 5:06 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 143 of 162 (784221)
05-14-2016 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Tangle
05-13-2016 4:54 PM


The thread isn't about ... [but] it's about why they believe them given their variety
quote:
I don't give a flying fluke. The thread isn't about whether individual nonsenses that various religions believe are true or otherwise, it's about why they believe them given their variety and incompatibility.
I'm a little confused (o.k. more than just a little).
What exactly is this about and how are we to discuss it?
Also.
PaulK was asking me how the Finkelstein book can be seen as supportive of those who question the Jewish Temple (and scriptures) being the original product of Canaanitie/Israelite/Palestinian society and instead want to see the origins in Africa or Arabia (with the Jews simply being imitators of a foreign religion whose scriptures and history they co-opted and without attributing those they borrowed from).
I was just showing that certain details from the Bible (and Assyrian texts) support the notion that there was a discontinuity between Palestinians pre 8th century and residents after. And the Finkelstein book says Jerusalem only had 1000 residents before the later 8th century BCE, when it shot up to 10,000.
My deleted post was full of "I don't know" comments about the Jewish Temple pre-dating the extant archaeological (and in-situ textual evidence) evidence which doesn't show anything before the 7th century. I don't know if Judah existed before the later 8th century (when first mentioned), but I know it is seen as evidence (by some/many) that there were no Jews 800 BCE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Tangle, posted 05-13-2016 4:54 PM Tangle has replied

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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 144 of 162 (784223)
05-14-2016 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by PaulK
05-13-2016 5:06 PM


Finkelstein.
He might say that, but there were still Assyrian records of 10s of thousands of removals and replacements with as many transplants.
The Babylonians came later and removed a big chunk of the population.
One can easily see opportunities for legends and (old)religions to travel and be co-opted (into newer religions).
Carl Sagan, on Cosmos, said that Ionians, in the 7th century BCE, developed scientific theories of the Earth based on Enuma Elish. They "left Marduk out" and had naturalistic geological theories, but got the inspiration and details from the Babylon religious text. Thales? Or Anaximander? One of the two.
Historians say that the early chapters of the Hebrew Bible, that are in Genesis, from the creation to the Babel incident, were inspired (or copied) by Sumerian and Babylonian history and religions.
The later ones (especially if one looks at the inner testament period texts that aren't held sacred) seem to copy the Persian religions.
Could the middle-ones be copies as well?
I doubt it myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2016 5:06 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2016 4:32 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 146 of 162 (784225)
05-14-2016 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Modulous
05-11-2016 6:20 PM


Re: Modulous and my point. Attempted by me. Here goes.
quote:
We have a sick man on our hands, a man gravely ill, it will be a great misfortune if one of these days he slips through our hands, especially before the necessary arrangements are made.
Huh? I didn't say that. I'm not sure where this came from. Somebody hacked me if this was under my name. Honestly.
But on to the rest.
quote:
Second, this is not what Muhammed did.
Here's what happened according to their own religious histories:
The Jews wrote their texts and their histories. Different groups/sects/factions arose. New Jewish prophets came, some real and ignored, others fake and ignored, others fake and believed and a few real and believed. But those prophets likely got followers, formed their own little sects, some probably grew. The Samaritans, provide a striking example for instance.
Then the Temple was destroyed and the believers wanted to know what to do. A new prophet shows up called Joshua. He gives his instructions on how to pray and have a relationship with God in a world without the temple and other things too. He reaffirmed previous texts, providing alternate interpretations, reinforcing some points etc and said some new things. This Jewish subsect grew into Christianity. (OK, within the religion, Christ preceded the Temple destruction but the point is the same)
Then in another semitic group, from 800km south another Prophet rises. Others of the time think it is a new Old Testament cult. The Prophet says that the stuff in Judaism is basically correct, he cites specific Jewish texts as being holy scripture. He clearly has been exposed to those texts based on what he says. He reinforces some points, provides some alternate interpretations. He does not say Solomon was ruling in Arabia in 5000BC.
The Islamic texts have always said that the Jewish texts weren't the original unmolested texts. There never was an actual explanation for how this happened and just how changed the texts were changed. Not an official position despite lots of individual opinions. I admit I don't have the (Muslim)scholars names, dates, and comments. I also can't assess how authoritative any were (naturally, since I'm ignorant of the first 3 details).
Islam just states that "everything original has been lost, only God has those elusive texts". "The Koran tells us everything we need to know".
quote:
Then in 1982 a man writes a pop religion-history book with a controversial idea.
The idea is that the information contained within the Bible about the locations is all relative based. He observes that the Bible doesn't really make sense of the locations, they don't map out properly. He proposes that instead of limiting the borders discussed in the Bible to the region of Israel/Jordan - the entire Arabian peninsula (something like this). He 'blows up' the map given in the Bible and transposes it over the whole area. He comes up with dates that differ from traditional dates.
I don't see any significant Islamic support for this notion, but there is some support out there.
That's all you've shown me so far as far as I can see. There doesn't appear to be a parallel that I can see to your hypothetical that matters.
I think we all can imagine lots of "chatter" over the past 1400 years. What was the "popular view" verses the official edicts from the Caliphs? I'm sure the Caliphs simply ignored the situation, and whatever comments they made about the Jewish scriptures and Gospels were very mild and not too earth-shaking.
quote:
[LamarkNewAge]
First, the rise of modern scholarship, which has called into question that dates of the texts, and modern archaeology, which finds an Israel from 1200 BCE - 730 BCE but no Judah until terrified Israelite refugees, fearing ever more endless Assyrian assaults, turned the highland hamlet Jerusalem into a population center around 750-720 BCE and the Holy Bible was written (see introduction to the Finkelstein book for the atmospherics surrounding the origins of the texts).
[Modulous]
There has basically always been dispute over the dates.
Judah was always assumed to have existed in the 10th century in a way comparable to the Biblical description. Now archaeologists admit that they can't tell the difference between 10th and 9th century pottery, and that Judah is 100% absent any evidence of existence pre 750 BCE. Even worse for the Temple of Solomon.
quote:
The Nation of Islam is not influential in Islam. They have less influence over Islamic opinion than the Alawites, for example. Even the Druze has more influence over Islamic thought than the Nation of Islam. Seems to me the flow of influence as far as religious ideas is basically one way.
Their forceful theories on geographical and racial/tribal issues surely made their way around the globe. Perhaps they were an extreme example of an "underground" type of average-guy Muslim which happens to be far more exotic in their explanation of how the Hebrew Bible (and Jews) came to be what it was (and is) verses the "pure revelation" that once existed.
quote:
Can you confirm that my guess about your point is correct? You are trying to say that there were two Solomon's in this perspective? One real one, and one fictional one and that Islam is increasingly claiming to believe in the real one - while arguing that the Biblical one is the fictional one? Because I don't see that happening, but I'd be interested if you have more evidence than Salibi's theories as I understand them.
Did the Jewish Solomon actually exist? His name is a legendary name which describes the attributes of his reign and the conditions of his kingdom. I quoted William Dever admitting that the "peaceful" Solomon (and "beloved" David) of the Bible did not exist. Or at least the Biblical David and Solomon with their empire from Egypt to north Syria.
My post is lost though. And the OP is made we are even discussing this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Modulous, posted 05-11-2016 6:20 PM Modulous has replied

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 Message 151 by Modulous, posted 05-14-2016 7:11 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
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LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 148 of 162 (784227)
05-14-2016 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by PaulK
05-14-2016 4:32 PM


Re: Finkelstein. I'll risk a wikipedia quote.
quote:
[LamarkNewAge]
He might say that, but there were still Assyrian records of 10s of thousands of removals and replacements with as many transplants.
[PaulK]
So now you're rejecting Finkelsteins claims because they are against the idea of a ""discontinuity". What's the point in citing the book if you are going to disagree with it ?
And really, even if the Assyrian records do say what you claim - and I'll wait for evidence of that - why should they override the archaeological evidence ? Hyperbole is hardly unknown in the Middle East - ancient and modern.
First, the Assyrian textual records.
Here is a quote from Context of Scripture by William Hallo (the Wikipedia editors don't know what that is it seems because they are asking for a citation).
quote:
Assyrian account of the conquest and settlement of Samaria[edit]
However, the following account of the Assyrian kings, which was among the archaeological discoveries in Babylon, differs from the Samaritan account, and confirms much of the Jewish biblical account but may differ in regard to the ethnicity of the foreigners settled in Samaria by Assyria. At one point it is simply said that they were from Arabia, while at another, that they were brought from a number of countries conquered by Sargon II:
[the Samar]ians [who had agreed with a hostile king] ... I fought with them and decisively defeated them ... carried off as spoil. 50 chariots for my royal force ... [the rest of them I settled in the midst of Assyria]. ... The Tamudi, Ibadidi, Marsimani and Hayappa, who live in distant Arabia, in the desert, who knew neither overseer nor commander, who never brought tribute to any king--with the help of Ashshur my lord, I defeated them. I deported the rest of them. I settled them in Samaria/Samerina. (Sargon II Inscriptions, COS 2.118A, p. 293)
[citation needed]
Also,
The inhabitants of Samaria/Samerina, who agreed [and plotted] with a king [hostile to] me, not to do service and not to bring tribute [to Ashshur] and who did battle, I fought against them with the power of the great gods, my lords. I counted as spoil 27,280 people, together with their chariots, and gods, in which they trusted. I formed a unit with 200 of [their] chariots for my royal force. I settled the rest of them in the midst of Assyria. I repopulated Samaria/Samerina more than before. I brought into it people from countries conquered by my hands. I appointed my eunuch as governor over them. And I counted them as Assyrians. (Nimrud Prisms, COS 2.118D, pp. 295-296)[43]
[citation needed]
Samaritans - Wikipedia
Now, the Bible seems to describe a depopulated land.
2 Kings 17 matches the Assyrian records.
You have the Jews and the segregated Samaritans. The Gospel of John says that a Samaritan was shocked that Jesus was talking to her. She said they were so segregated that they weren't even allowed to talk to each other. Matthew says that Jesus sent his disciples to Jews and real Israelites, excluding Canaanites and Samaritans.
Now you say the textual evidence is being used to "override the archaeological evidence ". Well, we were talking about peoples understanding of the situation on the one hand, and foreign influence on the other. The Biblical text has caused us all to see Israel as depopulated, right? Muslims would see that, right? The Biblical text describes foreigners replacing the northern kingdom Israelites, right?
Now the archaeological evidence shows that "Israel" might have existed in the 10th century but Judah didn't exist until Israelite refugees flooded Judah and Jerusalem around 720 BCE.
Finkelstein himself said that Jerusalem went from 1000 inhabitants up to 10,000 in just a few years or decades during that last quarter of the 8th century BCE.
Right?
Hope my post doesn't vanish lol.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2016 4:32 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2016 5:33 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 728 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 150 of 162 (784230)
05-14-2016 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by PaulK
05-14-2016 5:33 PM


Re: Finkelstein. I'll risk a wikipedia quote.
quote:
[paulK]
So, no detailed numbers of the deportations, just vague statements which are assumed to include everyone who isn't serving as military.
And 2 Chronicles 30 indicates that there were Israelites still living in Israel at that time.
And even then we have to take account of the refugees fleeing to Judah, which undermines the whole idea of a discontinuity.
Well, there are many different views on the numbers of refugees (in all directions). Here is what the Biblical text says about what you cite. It was a small number of people, and they might have been foreigners who assumed Israelite identity.
quote:
The captivities began in approximately 740 BC (or 733/2 BC according to other sources).[1]
....
In 722 BC, nearly twenty years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, was finally taken by Sargon II after a three-year siege started by Shalmaneser V.
....
According to 2nd Chronicles, Chapter 30, there is evidence that at least some people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel were not exiled. These were invited by king Hezekiah to keep the Passover in a feast at Jerusalem with the Judean population.
....
In 2nd Chronicles, Chapter 31, it is said that the remnant of the Kingdom of Israel returned to their homes
Assyrian captivity - Wikipedia
There were deportations before 722/721. And immigration inward too.
quote:
[PaulK]
The archaeological evidence shows that Judah was settled before then - emerging about the same time as Israel, that the people were very similar to the Israelites, and that they carried in living there all through the period.
A.H. Sayce was the leading apologist before Albright. Here was one of his most important defenses of the Old Testament history.
Full text of "The "higher criticism" and the verdict of the monuments"
There were textual records from the Assyians that we have today. There was the 853 BCE Assyian invasion of Syria which included Syian states allied with Israel. Notice the absence of Judah and his reaction.
quote:
p.393
It will be noticed that although Ammon is men-
tioned, not a word is said in the inscription about
Moab, Edom or Judah. Why Moab sent no con-
tingent to the allied forces is evident. Moab had
just revolted from Israel. Mesha was still engaged
in a war of independence, and his sympathies there-
fore would have been, not with Ahab and his allies,
but with their enemy. The absence of Judah from
the confederacy is more difficult to explain.
He has this difficulty for the next 100+ years till about 740/730 when Judah is finally mentioned. Judah is mentioned after the Assyrians brought in foreigners to Palestine.
Who knows if the "Israel" of 853-721 BCE had a pure pedigree. Did the actual people even care as the later biblical writers had?
(My keyboa hasn't been woking. Sorry fo the short post. The r key is almost dead.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2016 5:33 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by PaulK, posted 05-21-2016 6:12 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
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