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Author Topic:   This belief thing
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 1 of 162 (782560)
04-26-2016 12:13 AM


For the past month or so I've been travelling across South East Asia - Singapore, Vietnam (north and south), Taiwan, China, Japan.
Everywhere I went there were temples and shrines to various gods and belief systems, Buddism, Taoism, Confusionism, Shintoism and various sects and divisions within each. Everywhere too was some form of Christianity. Many also worhip ancestors and have various and differing beliefs about them. One guy I met in Vietnam (Saigon) explained that he was a Christian because the missionaries had free schools but you had to convert to go there.
One temple in Hue, Central Vietnam has Terry Pratchett's turtle god.
In Hong Kong, they have what they call 'traditions' of palm and card readings, head readings, future forecasting using caged birds and so on. These practices were once rife in mainland China but quashed by the communist regime - the practitioners fled to the liberal Hong Kong but are now being tempted back in China proper before they lose the arts completly.
Everywhere supertitions and proverbs were rife. Each country seems to have it's own versions of auspicious omens, charms and lucky numbers. In Vietnam it was 3, Hong Kong 8 and so on. The daft things that we have about astrology they take very seriously, as they do with their year of birth - dog, rat, monkey etc.
This is just a topic to muse on and it's obviously not a unique thought that each civilisation has made up its own belief systems and in the absence of real understanding, created its own ways of dealing with life here being 'short and brutish'.
But when you see all this first hand one after another in quick succession - all the bell ringing, incense burning, joss stick lighting, bowing, praying, fasting, food fetishes and dietary retrictions - you have to come to the conclusion that we just made it all up and people will believe just about anything at all if it's taught them young enough and the promises that the belief systems give them are attractive enough - and/or the penalties for disbelief unattractive enough.
There's no consistency and there's no rhyme or reason to it. If there is a God he's having a laugh.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 04-26-2016 4:10 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 4:45 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 7 by Dogmafood, posted 04-26-2016 8:52 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 9 by nwr, posted 04-26-2016 9:20 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-26-2016 9:49 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-28-2016 10:54 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 61 by kbertsche, posted 04-29-2016 12:38 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 63 by jaywill, posted 05-01-2016 4:01 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 70 by GDR, posted 05-04-2016 6:54 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 116 by Taq, posted 05-09-2016 5:11 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 16 of 162 (782594)
04-26-2016 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
04-26-2016 4:45 AM


Faith writes:
The Bible presents itself clearly as the revelation of the one true Creator God .... etc etc
Sure it does. Exactly as do all the rest.
The point is that there are many and various beliefs. You realise very quickly if you travel that the concept of belief is purely a matter of birth chance. Where you are born by and large determines what you believe.
Do you have a passport Faith?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 4:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 10:57 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 30 of 162 (782642)
04-27-2016 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
04-26-2016 10:57 AM


Faith writes:
They actually do not. The Bible is absolutely unique.
All books are unique. All faiths claim to be the truth. The people worshipping in the temples of Vietnam believe their version as fervently as you believe yours. The commonality is the need to believe in something, anything will do it seems.
For what it's worth, I think this 'belief thing' may be a bi-product of consciousness.
Knowledge that the future exists as well as the past forces us to think ahead, and knowledge of our certain eventual deaths forces ideas of perpetual life on us. Our imaginations and curiosity inevitably lead to superstitions and inventions designed to satisfy our need to know and understand and take some control of the future. Without rational, evidence based thinking and the scientific method, all they had was stories designed to explain the inexplicable.
The other side of the story is, of course, the fact that religious institutions and their leaders adopt and develop the beliefs to suit their own agendas and are able to extract political power, money and control from them.
It's all a very human construct.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 04-26-2016 10:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 04-27-2016 5:43 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 44 of 162 (782704)
04-27-2016 6:36 PM


We need to get away from the damn bible and Christianity.
The thread isn't about A religion or even religion, it's about humanity's obvious need for belief systems and the observed fact that all societies create them.
It's also a puzzle to me that even though we observe the fact that humanity invents these things, it does not then naturally lead to the conclusion that the one that we ourselves are born into/subscribe to is not also man made.
It's an obvious logic error but, as we've seen with Faith's comments above, the belief is stronger than the logic. Faith simply can not believe that a fervant believer in Shinto has an equally strong claim to the truth as she does or that both could have invented, despite the fact that she believes other belief systems than her's have been invented.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 04-27-2016 6:52 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 04-27-2016 7:20 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 48 by jar, posted 04-27-2016 8:54 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 47 of 162 (782709)
04-27-2016 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
04-27-2016 6:52 PM


Re: Ripleys Believe It Or Not
Phat writes:
If what you say is true, then even you have a need to believe in something. What is it, then? Humanity-at-large?
I'm speaking historically Phat - man has always invented stories about how all this came about, he's curious and he needs explanations for things. Causes and effects. Prior to scientific explanations of basic things like the movement of the planets, the evolution of species, the underlying bio-chemistry of life, invented belief systems is all they had.
There is no longer any need for lucky charms and auspicious omens, animal sacrafice, prayer and ancestors looking after our wellbeing, we now understand that it's all hokum.
It's now very obvious that if there is a god, it's not one that's behind any of the self-serving religions that we now have, he's a disinterested party.
I have no need for beliefs in things of that nature, my 'beliefs' - wrong word, maybe inclinations - are towards our human institutions of family, frienship groups, law and its instruments, education, equality, democracy and health services.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 04-27-2016 6:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 49 of 162 (782720)
04-28-2016 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
04-27-2016 7:20 PM


Faith writes:
I believe you have completely misunderstood what I'm saying.
I'm not basing my observations on what you have just said, I'm basing them on what you have said over the years I've been here and my interpretaion of it.
If I'd ever said that the fervency of my faith was evidence for the truth of what I believe you'd have a point, but I've never said any such thing. I'm quite aware that followers of all religions believe their religion is THE truth and that should go without saying, so this compulsion to inform me of it is just weird.
I'm not informing you Faith, my remarks are about you, not to you. I'm simply using you as an example of someone that has a fervant belief, which I assume you would agree with. I see you as exactly the same as the businessman in a suit that I've just seen in a Kyoto Buddist temple, shoes off, kneeling infront of the temple's alter praying devoutly to his god. Both of you would say that your chosen religion was the correct religion.
believe I've said, though perhaps not clearly enough, that there are OBJECTIVE criteria for evaluating religions, that I was persuaded by the EVIDENCE given in the Bible to its truth over all other religions, by its account of historical events including miraculous events that demonstrate the character of God and His plan of salvation; and that my arriving at belief had absolutely nothing to do with some psychological or emotional condition of my own, some need I had to believe it, and I've certainly never claimed that my believing it to be the truth is evidence that it is the truth. So the fact that everybody believes their own religion is the truth is completely irrelevant to the question of whether it IS the truth or not.
I've seen you claim this many times and I've seen your 'evidence' shot down in flames more often. There is no objective evidence for what you believe, if there was, I'd believe it too. The mere fact that you're incapable of addressing and accepting simple truths about geology, biology and physics - where there is real evidence - makes your arguments defunct.
Anyway that other kind of conversion which is a mere choosing is the question being addressed here -- what brings people to believe in something supernatural or transcendant anyway? I've given my speculations. I've answered in terms of truth claims. Let's drop that and just stick to the question of what motivates people to join a religion, any religion.
I've given my view on this.
I would probably add to it as you raised it, and I was also going to add to Jar's post, the feeling of the transcendental and beliefs that god's talk to them personally. As far as I'm aware these are real brain states that can be seen using fRMI scans, but they also can be induced by drugs. Normally we say these are delusions.
But they are very strong confirmations to the believer that they are on the right track in their beliefs. Of course these are purely person experiences which are totally subjective. The brain is a powerful tool for self-deception.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 04-27-2016 7:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 04-28-2016 8:01 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 50 of 162 (782728)
04-28-2016 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
04-26-2016 9:49 AM


Cat Sci writes:
You failed to consider that people can enjoy performing these rituals and they can enrich their lives.
I didn't fail to consider it, I just didn't mention it as it's not the point I was making.
People enjoy dancing and music, art and fishing etc etc and they too enrich lives but they're not belief systems. Belief systems are far bigger than mere entertainments, they're supposed to be rules to live your life by and methods of successfully obtaining the afterlife or the next life or heaven here on earth. They're supposed to be absolute truths. They cause schisms and splits between societies and disagreements between tribes, at their worst they cause wars and terrorism.
The joke though is that they're all complete fabrications. At the very least it has to be the case that all but one of them is.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-26-2016 9:49 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-28-2016 10:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 53 of 162 (782738)
04-28-2016 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
04-28-2016 8:01 AM


Re: objective evidence
Faith writes:
Ah well, I know that where I differ with conventional science on those things it's because the evidence is subject to interpretation, and what I'm rejecting is their interpretation, not the evidence itself, and I've many times shown that the evidence better supports creationist views rather than evolutionist views, and it's only because the conventional interpretations are so entrenched that their falseness is hard to expose.
I'm not really interested in your particular delusions here - although they are intrinsically interesting being so extreme and so obviously daft - you just posess one variant of one belief at one extreme end of its spectrum. There are thousands of different beliefs and a spectrum of belief within each one.
It's only in the last couple of generations that individuals on a mass scale have had access to first hand knowledge of people with such beliefs. Perhaps it's really only when you actually see this diversity of belief - just as strong, just as well 'evidenced' as yours that you get the real picture of how ludicrous it all is to claim that yours is the only one that is THE TRUTH.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 04-28-2016 8:01 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 55 of 162 (782740)
04-28-2016 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by New Cat's Eye
04-28-2016 10:03 AM


Cat Sci writes:
Confirmation Bias on purpose?
Don't be silly.
Regardless of what they are supposed to be, many people go along with belief systems for reasons that don't have anything to do with what they are supposed to be. Many people go through the motions without any conviction or belief at all. Many people are just lying about it.
Some must be of course. But what is your point?
Yeah, but some of the people that you are joking about are in on the joke.
It makes you look silly to ignore them.
So some people are lying about their beliefs and some people think their beliefs are a joke. Do you think these people are of material consequence or are you just making a trivial point that we can both agree on then move back to the major one?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-28-2016 10:03 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-28-2016 10:47 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 58 of 162 (782774)
04-28-2016 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by New Cat's Eye
04-28-2016 10:47 AM


Cat Sci writes:
Taking a superficial glance at peoples' behaviors and laughing about how they'll believe anything misses out on the more interesting underlying reasons for why they behave like they do.
It's lucky then that I'm not doing any of that.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-28-2016 10:47 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 59 of 162 (782776)
04-28-2016 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by caffeine
04-28-2016 4:50 PM


Caffeine writes:
Faith is right, however, in dismissing the idea that religion is simply a way to make death more comfortable.
I don't think anyone would claim that religions are simply about that - they're far more complex and developed than that, but I'm pretty convinced that the inevitability of death and our foreknowledge of it is a vitally important part of it. Answering the child's question 'where has mummy gone' is a lot easier with religion in your back pocket.
Lots of religions don't acheive that, so a general explanation of religion can't rely on such things.
No doubt some belief systems have nothing to do with after lives - I'm certainly no expert - but it seems to me that the vast majority do - either through direct access to sharing the heavens with the many gods, or joining ancestors, or being reborn at higher levels, or achieving nirvana here on earth.
But I'm not simply pointing out religious beliefs - I'm seeing superstitions of all sorts varying by country, for example in China feng shui is being applied to the orientation and shape of modern skyscrapers housing multi-national banks - not just furniture and fittings - architectural structures at vast cost.
We appear to have superstition built into us.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by caffeine, posted 04-28-2016 4:50 PM caffeine has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 62 of 162 (782808)
04-29-2016 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by kbertsche
04-29-2016 12:38 AM


kb writes:
Interesting observations. I had some similar observations when I visited the Holy Land a number of years ago. The Catholics, Orthodox, and Muslims all seemed to copy one another. They all had excessively ornate houses of worship. They all had shrines with footprints in the rock where Jesus or Mary or Mohammed ascended to heaven. (The Jews tended to avoid these excesses, however.).
I guess that because they all have the same root as Abrahamic religions.
Or He is very sad at what some of His professed followers are doing.
I think this is us anthropomorphising god - something that has always been done and is a probable source of some of the stuff we make up, like god's anger and love. If we were to go that route I'd add neglect, narcissism and, of course, poor communication skills to a very long list.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by kbertsche, posted 04-29-2016 12:38 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 64 of 162 (782972)
05-01-2016 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by jaywill
05-01-2016 4:01 PM


Jaywill writes:
Does counterfeit money prove that real money does not exist ?
Both counterfeit and real are easily proven to exist.
My observation is that all these beliefs are counterfeit and nobody is able to demonstrate otherwise because their is no 'real' version to compare them to.
You need a better analogy
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by jaywill, posted 05-01-2016 4:01 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jaywill, posted 05-02-2016 6:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 66 of 162 (783074)
05-03-2016 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by jaywill
05-02-2016 6:27 PM


Jaywill writes:
They may not like it, but they can perceive that one is genuine, true.
Yes, it's always the one that they believe. Coincidence?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jaywill, posted 05-02-2016 6:27 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 69 of 162 (783260)
05-04-2016 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jaywill
05-02-2016 6:27 PM


jaywill writes:
People have to be able to demonstrate the falsity of some beliefs or else they would never be recognized as counterfeit.
You claim to notice they are not genuine. Others can as well.
And people know when one is living in reality.
They may not like it, but they can perceive that one is genuine, true.
I may have misunderstood you - are you saying that those that are, say, buddhists, recognise that their beliefs are not genuine and that Christianity is?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jaywill, posted 05-02-2016 6:27 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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