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Author Topic:   This belief thing
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Message 136 of 162 (784083)
05-11-2016 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by LamarkNewAge
05-11-2016 6:05 PM


Re: responce on archaeological evidence.
Hi LamarkNewAge,

Please don't post messages with huge cut-n-pastes. From the Forum Guidelines:

  1. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.

As this is your second warning I will remove the content from your message and send a copy to you in a PM.

Please, no replies to this message.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 641
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 137 of 162 (784184)
05-13-2016 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by PaulK
05-11-2016 4:53 PM


Re: Solomon lived where and when?
My post went into some "PM" or something.

I did a link to a Wikipedia article on "Solomon's Temple". (I think)

It referenced page numbers where Finkelstein apparently placed the 1st Temple at a later date than the 10th century. (the date seemed to be quite late)

My responses and posts have been deleted a lot lately.

I was planning to get back to the reincarnation thread, but doubt that will be possible since I can't quote others to show viewpoints.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 641
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 138 of 162 (784185)
05-13-2016 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by PaulK
05-11-2016 4:53 PM


Remembered one more thing from my "dissapeared" post?
I mentioned that the Bible says that the entire northern kingdom of Israel was shipped to Iranian cities.

Then easterners were placed in Samaria as a replacement.

in 721 BCE?

See 2 Kings 17 (?)

Finkelstein's book starts out describing the refugees that filled Jerusalem around the same 720-730 date, and their endeavor to write a history. They came from the northern kingdom.

I'll let you know if I remember any more of my post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2016 4:53 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 140 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2016 5:06 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4416
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 139 of 162 (784186)
05-13-2016 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by LamarkNewAge
05-13-2016 4:33 PM


Re: Remembered one more thing from my "dissapeared" post?
LMA writes:

I mentioned that the Bible says that the entire northern kingdom of Israel was shipped to Iranian cities.
Then easterners were placed in Samaria as a replacement.

in 721 BCE?

See 2 Kings 17 (?)

Finkelstein's book starts out describing the refugees that filled Jerusalem around the same 720-730 date, and their endeavor to write a history. They came from the northern kingdom.

I'll let you know if I remember any more of my post.

I don't give a flying fluke. The thread isn't about whether individual nonsenses that various religions believe are true or otherwise, it's about why they believe them given their variety and incompatibility.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-13-2016 4:33 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-14-2016 4:15 PM Tangle has responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 12448
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 140 of 162 (784187)
05-13-2016 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by LamarkNewAge
05-13-2016 4:33 PM


Re: Remembered one more thing from my "dissapeared" post?
Finkelstein outright denies that the entire population of Israel was deported. Instead he says that "most of the surviving Israelites were left on the land" says that in the hill country around Samaria "the deportations were minimal" and talks about a "surprising demographic continuity". He also refers to 2 Chronicles 30:1 as indicating that Israelites remained.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
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Posts: 12448
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 141 of 162 (784188)
05-13-2016 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by LamarkNewAge
05-13-2016 4:24 PM


Re: Solomon lived where and when?
I've checked the pages, and since I have a different edition I checked the index too. I could find no references to the Temple being built later.

ABE

According to the Talk page, other Wikipedians have also had problems verifying the claims.


However there is another problem here: the text cited to F&S is not very well supported by the listed pages of that source

Edited by PaulK, : Discussion on Talk page is relevant


This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-13-2016 4:24 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
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From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 142 of 162 (784203)
05-14-2016 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by LamarkNewAge
05-13-2016 4:24 PM


Re: Solomon lived where and when?
LamarkNewAge writes:

My responses and posts have been deleted a lot lately.

Correction: Despite warnings you have repeatedly violated rule 6 of the Forum Guidelines, and there has been moderator action twice. In one case your response was hidden, in another it was removed and the content PM'd to you. From the Forum Guidelines:

  1. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.

Please, no replies to this message.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-13-2016 4:24 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 641
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 143 of 162 (784221)
05-14-2016 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Tangle
05-13-2016 4:54 PM


The thread isn't about ... [but] it's about why they believe them given their variety
quote:

I don't give a flying fluke. The thread isn't about whether individual nonsenses that various religions believe are true or otherwise, it's about why they believe them given their variety and incompatibility.

I'm a little confused (o.k. more than just a little).

What exactly is this about and how are we to discuss it?

Also.

PaulK was asking me how the Finkelstein book can be seen as supportive of those who question the Jewish Temple (and scriptures) being the original product of Canaanitie/Israelite/Palestinian society and instead want to see the origins in Africa or Arabia (with the Jews simply being imitators of a foreign religion whose scriptures and history they co-opted and without attributing those they borrowed from).

I was just showing that certain details from the Bible (and Assyrian texts) support the notion that there was a discontinuity between Palestinians pre 8th century and residents after. And the Finkelstein book says Jerusalem only had 1000 residents before the later 8th century BCE, when it shot up to 10,000.

My deleted post was full of "I don't know" comments about the Jewish Temple pre-dating the extant archaeological (and in-situ textual evidence) evidence which doesn't show anything before the 7th century. I don't know if Judah existed before the later 8th century (when first mentioned), but I know it is seen as evidence (by some/many) that there were no Jews 800 BCE.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Tangle, posted 05-13-2016 4:54 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 641
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 144 of 162 (784223)
05-14-2016 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by PaulK
05-13-2016 5:06 PM


Finkelstein.
He might say that, but there were still Assyrian records of 10s of thousands of removals and replacements with as many transplants.

The Babylonians came later and removed a big chunk of the population.

One can easily see opportunities for legends and (old)religions to travel and be co-opted (into newer religions).

Carl Sagan, on Cosmos, said that Ionians, in the 7th century BCE, developed scientific theories of the Earth based on Enuma Elish. They "left Marduk out" and had naturalistic geological theories, but got the inspiration and details from the Babylon religious text. Thales? Or Anaximander? One of the two.

Historians say that the early chapters of the Hebrew Bible, that are in Genesis, from the creation to the Babel incident, were inspired (or copied) by Sumerian and Babylonian history and religions.

The later ones (especially if one looks at the inner testament period texts that aren't held sacred) seem to copy the Persian religions.

Could the middle-ones be copies as well?

I doubt it myself.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by PaulK, posted 05-13-2016 5:06 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2016 4:32 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
PaulK
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Posts: 12448
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 145 of 162 (784224)
05-14-2016 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by LamarkNewAge
05-14-2016 4:25 PM


Re: Finkelstein.
quote:

He might say that, but there were still Assyrian records of 10s of thousands of removals and replacements with as many transplants.

So now you're rejecting Finkelsteins claims because they are against the idea of a ""discontinuity". What's the point in citing the book if you are going to disagree with it ?

And really, even if the Assyrian records do say what you claim - and I'll wait for evidence of that - why should they override the archaeological evidence ? Hyperbole is hardly unknown in the Middle East - ancient and modern.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-14-2016 4:25 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-14-2016 5:07 PM PaulK has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 146 of 162 (784225)
05-14-2016 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Modulous
05-11-2016 6:20 PM


Re: Modulous and my point. Attempted by me. Here goes.
quote:

We have a sick man on our hands, a man gravely ill, it will be a great misfortune if one of these days he slips through our hands, especially before the necessary arrangements are made.

Huh? I didn't say that. I'm not sure where this came from. Somebody hacked me if this was under my name. Honestly.

But on to the rest.

quote:

Second, this is not what Muhammed did.

Here's what happened according to their own religious histories:

The Jews wrote their texts and their histories. Different groups/sects/factions arose. New Jewish prophets came, some real and ignored, others fake and ignored, others fake and believed and a few real and believed. But those prophets likely got followers, formed their own little sects, some probably grew. The Samaritans, provide a striking example for instance.

Then the Temple was destroyed and the believers wanted to know what to do. A new prophet shows up called Joshua. He gives his instructions on how to pray and have a relationship with God in a world without the temple and other things too. He reaffirmed previous texts, providing alternate interpretations, reinforcing some points etc and said some new things. This Jewish subsect grew into Christianity. (OK, within the religion, Christ preceded the Temple destruction but the point is the same)

Then in another semitic group, from 800km south another Prophet rises. Others of the time think it is a new Old Testament cult. The Prophet says that the stuff in Judaism is basically correct, he cites specific Jewish texts as being holy scripture. He clearly has been exposed to those texts based on what he says. He reinforces some points, provides some alternate interpretations. He does not say Solomon was ruling in Arabia in 5000BC.


The Islamic texts have always said that the Jewish texts weren't the original unmolested texts. There never was an actual explanation for how this happened and just how changed the texts were changed. Not an official position despite lots of individual opinions. I admit I don't have the (Muslim)scholars names, dates, and comments. I also can't assess how authoritative any were (naturally, since I'm ignorant of the first 3 details).

Islam just states that "everything original has been lost, only God has those elusive texts". "The Koran tells us everything we need to know".

quote:

Then in 1982 a man writes a pop religion-history book with a controversial idea.

The idea is that the information contained within the Bible about the locations is all relative based. He observes that the Bible doesn't really make sense of the locations, they don't map out properly. He proposes that instead of limiting the borders discussed in the Bible to the region of Israel/Jordan - the entire Arabian peninsula (something like this). He 'blows up' the map given in the Bible and transposes it over the whole area. He comes up with dates that differ from traditional dates.

I don't see any significant Islamic support for this notion, but there is some support out there.

That's all you've shown me so far as far as I can see. There doesn't appear to be a parallel that I can see to your hypothetical that matters.


I think we all can imagine lots of "chatter" over the past 1400 years. What was the "popular view" verses the official edicts from the Caliphs? I'm sure the Caliphs simply ignored the situation, and whatever comments they made about the Jewish scriptures and Gospels were very mild and not too earth-shaking.

quote:

[LamarkNewAge]

First, the rise of modern scholarship, which has called into question that dates of the texts, and modern archaeology, which finds an Israel from 1200 BCE - 730 BCE but no Judah until terrified Israelite refugees, fearing ever more endless Assyrian assaults, turned the highland hamlet Jerusalem into a population center around 750-720 BCE and the Holy Bible was written (see introduction to the Finkelstein book for the atmospherics surrounding the origins of the texts).
[Modulous]
There has basically always been dispute over the dates.


Judah was always assumed to have existed in the 10th century in a way comparable to the Biblical description. Now archaeologists admit that they can't tell the difference between 10th and 9th century pottery, and that Judah is 100% absent any evidence of existence pre 750 BCE. Even worse for the Temple of Solomon.

quote:

The Nation of Islam is not influential in Islam. They have less influence over Islamic opinion than the Alawites, for example. Even the Druze has more influence over Islamic thought than the Nation of Islam. Seems to me the flow of influence as far as religious ideas is basically one way.

Their forceful theories on geographical and racial/tribal issues surely made their way around the globe. Perhaps they were an extreme example of an "underground" type of average-guy Muslim which happens to be far more exotic in their explanation of how the Hebrew Bible (and Jews) came to be what it was (and is) verses the "pure revelation" that once existed.

quote:

Can you confirm that my guess about your point is correct? You are trying to say that there were two Solomon's in this perspective? One real one, and one fictional one and that Islam is increasingly claiming to believe in the real one - while arguing that the Biblical one is the fictional one? Because I don't see that happening, but I'd be interested if you have more evidence than Salibi's theories as I understand them.

Did the Jewish Solomon actually exist? His name is a legendary name which describes the attributes of his reign and the conditions of his kingdom. I quoted William Dever admitting that the "peaceful" Solomon (and "beloved" David) of the Bible did not exist. Or at least the Biblical David and Solomon with their empire from Egypt to north Syria.

My post is lost though. And the OP is made we are even discussing this.


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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4416
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 147 of 162 (784226)
05-14-2016 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by LamarkNewAge
05-14-2016 4:15 PM


Re: The thread isn't about ... [but] it's about why they believe them given their variety
LNA writes:


I'm a little confused (o.k. more than just a little).

What exactly is this about and how are we to discuss it?

The premise is that there are virtually endless belief systems from ancestor worship to multiple god worship to, well you name it, it's a belief somewhere.

The intricacies of individual belief systems are irrelevant (if amusing in a tragic sort of way), but they can't all be true. The question is why, now that we know all about the world's different and contradictory beliefs we still believe what we individually believe and believe that everyone else is wrong.

If 99.99% of all belief systems are wrong or dead, why are the believers so sure that theirs is the chosen one?

There's a secondary issue - are we just programmed to believe?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-14-2016 4:15 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 148 of 162 (784227)
05-14-2016 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by PaulK
05-14-2016 4:32 PM


Re: Finkelstein. I'll risk a wikipedia quote.
quote:

[LamarkNewAge]
He might say that, but there were still Assyrian records of 10s of thousands of removals and replacements with as many transplants.

[PaulK]
So now you're rejecting Finkelsteins claims because they are against the idea of a ""discontinuity". What's the point in citing the book if you are going to disagree with it ?

And really, even if the Assyrian records do say what you claim - and I'll wait for evidence of that - why should they override the archaeological evidence ? Hyperbole is hardly unknown in the Middle East - ancient and modern.


First, the Assyrian textual records.

Here is a quote from Context of Scripture by William Hallo (the Wikipedia editors don't know what that is it seems because they are asking for a citation).

quote:

Assyrian account of the conquest and settlement of Samaria[edit]

However, the following account of the Assyrian kings, which was among the archaeological discoveries in Babylon, differs from the Samaritan account, and confirms much of the Jewish biblical account but may differ in regard to the ethnicity of the foreigners settled in Samaria by Assyria. At one point it is simply said that they were from Arabia, while at another, that they were brought from a number of countries conquered by Sargon II:

[the Samar]ians [who had agreed with a hostile king] ... I fought with them and decisively defeated them ... carried off as spoil. 50 chariots for my royal force ... [the rest of them I settled in the midst of Assyria]. ... The Tamudi, Ibadidi, Marsimani and Hayappa, who live in distant Arabia, in the desert, who knew neither overseer nor commander, who never brought tribute to any king--with the help of Ashshur my lord, I defeated them. I deported the rest of them. I settled them in Samaria/Samerina. (Sargon II Inscriptions, COS 2.118A, p. 293)

[citation needed]

Also,

The inhabitants of Samaria/Samerina, who agreed [and plotted] with a king [hostile to] me, not to do service and not to bring tribute [to Ashshur] and who did battle, I fought against them with the power of the great gods, my lords. I counted as spoil 27,280 people, together with their chariots, and gods, in which they trusted. I formed a unit with 200 of [their] chariots for my royal force. I settled the rest of them in the midst of Assyria. I repopulated Samaria/Samerina more than before. I brought into it people from countries conquered by my hands. I appointed my eunuch as governor over them. And I counted them as Assyrians. (Nimrud Prisms, COS 2.118D, pp. 295-296)[43]

[citation needed]

https://en.wikipedia.org/...nquest_and_settlement_of_Samaria


Now, the Bible seems to describe a depopulated land.

2 Kings 17 matches the Assyrian records.

You have the Jews and the segregated Samaritans. The Gospel of John says that a Samaritan was shocked that Jesus was talking to her. She said they were so segregated that they weren't even allowed to talk to each other. Matthew says that Jesus sent his disciples to Jews and real Israelites, excluding Canaanites and Samaritans.

Now you say the textual evidence is being used to "override the archaeological evidence ". Well, we were talking about peoples understanding of the situation on the one hand, and foreign influence on the other. The Biblical text has caused us all to see Israel as depopulated, right? Muslims would see that, right? The Biblical text describes foreigners replacing the northern kingdom Israelites, right?

Now the archaeological evidence shows that "Israel" might have existed in the 10th century but Judah didn't exist until Israelite refugees flooded Judah and Jerusalem around 720 BCE.

Finkelstein himself said that Jerusalem went from 1000 inhabitants up to 10,000 in just a few years or decades during that last quarter of the 8th century BCE.

Right?

Hope my post doesn't vanish lol.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2016 4:32 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by PaulK, posted 05-14-2016 5:33 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12448
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 149 of 162 (784228)
05-14-2016 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by LamarkNewAge
05-14-2016 5:07 PM


Re: Finkelstein. I'll risk a wikipedia quote.
So, no detailed numbers of the deportations, just vague statements which are assumed to include everyone who isn't serving as military.

And 2 Chronicles 30 indicates that there were Israelites still living in Israel at that time.

And even then we have to take account of the refugees fleeing to Judah, which undermines the whole idea of a discontinuity.

quote:

Now the archaeological evidence shows that "Israel" might have existed in the 10th century but Judah didn't exist until Israelite refugees flooded Judah and Jerusalem around 720 BCE.

As I keep pointing out that is not true. The archaeological evidence shows that Judah was settled before then - emerging about the same time as Israel, that the people were very similar to the Israelites, and that they carried in living there all through the period.

Besides, even if the locals were entirely replaced by refugees from Israel, how would that help the claimed "discontinuity" ? They're still Hebrews, of the tribes of Israel.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-14-2016 5:07 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-14-2016 6:32 PM PaulK has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 150 of 162 (784230)
05-14-2016 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by PaulK
05-14-2016 5:33 PM


Re: Finkelstein. I'll risk a wikipedia quote.
quote:

[paulK]
So, no detailed numbers of the deportations, just vague statements which are assumed to include everyone who isn't serving as military.
And 2 Chronicles 30 indicates that there were Israelites still living in Israel at that time.

And even then we have to take account of the refugees fleeing to Judah, which undermines the whole idea of a discontinuity.


Well, there are many different views on the numbers of refugees (in all directions). Here is what the Biblical text says about what you cite. It was a small number of people, and they might have been foreigners who assumed Israelite identity.

quote:

The captivities began in approximately 740 BC (or 733/2 BC according to other sources).[1]
....
In 722 BC, nearly twenty years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, was finally taken by Sargon II after a three-year siege started by Shalmaneser V.
....
According to 2nd Chronicles, Chapter 30, there is evidence that at least some people of the Northern Kingdom of Israel were not exiled. These were invited by king Hezekiah to keep the Passover in a feast at Jerusalem with the Judean population.
....
In 2nd Chronicles, Chapter 31, it is said that the remnant of the Kingdom of Israel returned to their homes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_captivity

There were deportations before 722/721. And immigration inward too.

quote:

[PaulK]
The archaeological evidence shows that Judah was settled before then - emerging about the same time as Israel, that the people were very similar to the Israelites, and that they carried in living there all through the period.

A.H. Sayce was the leading apologist before Albright. Here was one of his most important defenses of the Old Testament history.

https://archive.org/...t/highercriticismv00saycuoft_djvu.txt

There were textual records from the Assyians that we have today. There was the 853 BCE Assyian invasion of Syria which included Syian states allied with Israel. Notice the absence of Judah and his reaction.

quote:

p.393
It will be noticed that although Ammon is men-
tioned, not a word is said in the inscription about
Moab, Edom or Judah. Why Moab sent no con-
tingent to the allied forces is evident. Moab had
just revolted from Israel. Mesha was still engaged
in a war of independence, and his sympathies there-
fore would have been, not with Ahab and his allies,
but with their enemy. The absence of Judah from
the confederacy is more difficult to explain.

He has this difficulty for the next 100+ years till about 740/730 when Judah is finally mentioned. Judah is mentioned after the Assyrians brought in foreigners to Palestine.

Who knows if the "Israel" of 853-721 BCE had a pure pedigree. Did the actual people even care as the later biblical writers had?

(My keyboa hasn't been woking. Sorry fo the short post. The r key is almost dead.)


This message is a reply to:
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