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Author Topic:   This belief thing
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4416
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 76 of 162 (783594)
05-07-2016 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by GDR
05-06-2016 7:25 PM


GDR writes:

I suggest that most religions do have some beliefs in common, such as the golden rule. As I said earlier all major religions agree that there is more to our lives than what is obvious through normal observation whether it be a particular revelation about one deity or another or re-incarnation.

There's no need to suggest it, the so called golden rule is common to all humanity no matter what their belifs. To not have the thing you need to be psychologically damaged - a psychopath.

But religions don't major on that, they all have their own specific beliefs, fetishes and rituals which seperate them and all these things are obviously the inventions of people. There's no avoiding it, they can't all be correct. You are completely ignoring these major incompatibilities as if they don't matter - but they are the core of those beliefs, without believing them many of these beliefs say you can not achieve happiness in the next life. You can't just shrug them off.

I'm theistic.

Yes you are, and a liberal one at that. Nothing I'm saying says that there's no god or that a god could not have built the need to believe in us. What I AM saying is that the overwhelming evidence from the range of incompatible belief systems that exist around the world demonstrates that we have invented them.

If the interventionist god of your belief system really existed and needs us to believe in the one way to him and only one way to him, all these other absurdities could not exist.

God has been around a lot longer that 2000 years. Whar's your point?

That the golden rule was around before man made religious ideas. We didn't need religions to tell us not to murder and steal.

IMHO all religions including my own are in one sense or another made up.

You're actually only a step or two away from atheism. You can do the good and right thing without all the redundant paraphernalia of religious artifacts, politics and humbug.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by GDR, posted 05-06-2016 7:25 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:17 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 23985
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 77 of 162 (783598)
05-07-2016 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Tangle
05-07-2016 3:54 AM


If the interventionist god of your belief system really existed and needs us to believe in the one way to him and only one way to him, all these other absurdities could not exist.

Except that if GDR's God is the same as my God -- and that is true only to some extent I'm never really clear about -- then far from all the other religions not being able to exist, the Bible explains why all those other religions you call absurdities exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 3:54 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 8:39 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4416
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 78 of 162 (783601)
05-07-2016 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Faith
05-07-2016 8:17 AM


Faith writes:

Except that if GDR's God is the same as my God

He's the same god - you're both Christians. You don't have the authority to claim others are not Christians if they believe that they are.

and that is true only to some extent

He's only the same god to some extent? He either is or he ain't Faith. He can't be only a bit the same god.

then far from all the other religions not being able to exist, the Bible explains why all those other religions you call absurdities exist.

Pretty much all belief systems explain why only theirs is correct and why all the others are wrong. You book is the same as everyone else's, man made.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:17 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:43 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 97 by GDR, posted 05-08-2016 9:49 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 23985
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 79 of 162 (783603)
05-07-2016 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
05-07-2016 8:39 AM


Pretty much all belief systems explain why only theirs is correct and why all the others are wrong.

This is actually not true. People are always claiming this but it is not true. Islam may do this, because it's basically an imitation of Biblical religion, but the nonbiblical religions don't. Please quote one if you think I'm wrong.

ABE: Also, it's not wrong to wonder if GDR's God is the same as mine because his God didn't tell the Israelites to slaughter the Canaanites and other similar events in the Old Testament. So to some extent he's made up his own God in contrast with the Biblical God.

And I may be misremembering this, but I think his God also didn't die to pay for our sins and save us from Hell. That's an entirely different God from mine if so.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 8:39 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 9:19 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 81 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 9:24 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4416
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 80 of 162 (783614)
05-07-2016 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
05-07-2016 8:43 AM


Faith writes:


This is actually not true. People are always claiming this but it is not true. Islam may do this, because it's basically an imitation of Biblical religion, but the nonbiblical religions don't. Please quote one if you think I'm wrong.

So we have Christianity and Islam. The two lagest religions in the world. The third largest with about 1bn followers and is older than Christianity is Hinduism.

Hinduism stands in complete contrast with the Bible's view on many of the key issues of life. Hinduism is not just another way to God; it is a completely opposing system of belief that promotes worship of a multitude of gods. Ultimately, the Bible compels Hindus to leave their beliefs and come to faith in Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6) and calls Christians to share the message of Jesus with Hindus whenever possible (Matthew 28:18-20).

The wiki gives you an idea of it's central concepts which must be accepted to be a Hindu.

Dharma is considered the foremost goal of a human being in Hinduism.[116] The concept Dharma includes behaviors that are considered to be in accord with rta, the order that makes life and universe possible,[117] and includes duties, rights, laws, conduct, virtues and "right way of living".[118] Hindu dharma includes the religious duties, moral rights and duties of each individual, as well as behaviors that enable social order, right conduct, and those that are virtuous.[118] Dharma, according to Van Buitenen,[119] is that which all existing beings must accept and respect to sustain harmony and order in the world. It is, states Van Buitenen, the pursuit and execution of one's nature and true calling, thus playing one's role in cosmic concert.[119] The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad states it as:

Nothing is higher than Dharma. The weak overcomes the stronger by Dharma, as over a king. Truly that Dharma is the Truth (Satya); Therefore, when a man speaks the Truth, they say, "He speaks the Dharma"; and if he speaks Dharma, they say, "He speaks the Truth!" For both are one.

 Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, 1.4.xiv [120][121]
In the Mahabharata, Krishna defines dharma as upholding both this-worldly and other-worldly affairs. (Mbh 12.110.11). The word Sanātana means 'eternal', 'perennial', or 'forever'; thus, 'Sanātana Dharma' signifies that it is the dharma that has neither beginning nor end.[122]

The other main group of beliefs are ancestor worship related. They, of course, have such different ideas that they don't concern themselves at all with others.

What none of them say is that you can believe anything else and it's ok. Nope, this is the one you need to believe is the message from them all. Need I go on?

All these belief structures are totally incompatible.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:43 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 05-07-2016 9:29 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4416
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 81 of 162 (783617)
05-07-2016 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
05-07-2016 8:43 AM


Faith writes:

And I may be misremembering this, but I think his God also didn't die to pay for our sins and save us from Hell. That's an entirely different God from mine if so.

You're not helping your case by claiming that you have a private god that only you understand. It just shows how these things are invented.

According to David Barrett and team, there are 19 major world religious groupings in the world which are subdivided into a total of about 10,000 distinct religions. Of the latter, there were 270 religions and para-religions which had over a half million adherents in the year 2000 CE. Within Christianity, they have identified 34,000 separate groups (denominations, sects, individual unaffiliated churches, para-church groups, etc) in the world. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations."

Couldn't be clearer could it? We make them up to suit. Except you of course. Your flavour is absolutlety the correct one. Heaven is going to be very sparcely populated it seems.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:43 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 12:02 PM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28446
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 82 of 162 (783619)
05-07-2016 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tangle
05-07-2016 9:19 AM


Actually many such as Hinduism can also accept Christianity as just another set of gods.

But there are also still the Nature Worship groups that again vary in about as many different flavors as the Judaic Trinity of Judaism, Islam and Christianity.

Remember though, even if all of the worlds religions are wrong it still says nothing about whether or not there is a GOD.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 9:19 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 9:56 AM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4416
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 83 of 162 (783629)
05-07-2016 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
05-07-2016 9:29 AM


Jar writes:

Actually many such as Hinduism can also accept Christianity as just another set of gods.

So long as you do the other stuff as well. They have hundreds of gods, it's not the precise god that matters it's the practices that need to be followed that define Hinduism.

But there are also still the Nature Worship groups that again vary in about as many different flavors as the Judaic Trinity of Judaism, Islam and Christianity.

Sure, and there's all the dead gods too. Every form of belief system you can imagine has probably been imagined by now.

Remember though, even if all of the worlds religions are wrong it still says nothing about whether or not there is a GOD.

Which is the point I keep trying to make to GDR but he's not getting it.

It does argue strongly against an interventionist or revealed god though and it renders the concept of organised religion totally absurd.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 05-07-2016 9:29 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 05-07-2016 10:22 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 7:59 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28446
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 84 of 162 (783637)
05-07-2016 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tangle
05-07-2016 9:56 AM


Tangle writes:

It does argue strongly against an interventionist or revealed god though and it renders the concept of organised religion totally absurd.

But both of those are also simply not correct. First, there is absolutely no reason even an interventionist god could not use entirely natural methods to intervene. For example by influencing someones thinking or behavior or any other non-detectable method. What it does eliminate is the show off caricature god like the one in the Exodus myth.

Second, organized religions as a concept can make sense even when the god they market may be absurd to others. They can align people to accomplish tasks the individual might not consider, promote a sense of identity and unity, gather and distribute resources, and many other similar social functions.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 9:56 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 12:04 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 23985
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 85 of 162 (783659)
05-07-2016 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Tangle
05-07-2016 9:24 AM


And I may be misremembering this, but I think his God also didn't die to pay for our sins and save us from Hell. That's an entirely different God from mine if so.

You're not helping your case by claiming that you have a private god that only you understand. It just shows how these things are invented.

Oh good grief. It would be helpful if you knew just a little about the history of western civilization, -- supposedly the civilization you grew up in (?) -- and the religion that built it. Sigh.

abe: and those supposed 34,000 different Christian groups is a gigantic misrepresentation of the truth, because probably more than 33,000 of them all agree on the Christian basics and differ only on secondary points, and the rest are likely not really Christian at all.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 9:24 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 7:07 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4416
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 86 of 162 (783661)
05-07-2016 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
05-07-2016 10:22 AM


Jar writes:

But both of those are also simply not correct. First, there is absolutely no reason even an interventionist god could not use entirely natural methods to intervene. For example by influencing someones thinking or behavior or any other non-detectable method.

If that actually happened, there wouldn't be tens of thousands of different religions - unless you're saying that this/these god are just messing with us?

What it does eliminate is the show off caricature god like the one in the Exodus myth.

And all the rest. Except one. But which one?

Second, organized religions as a concept can make sense even when the god they market may be absurd to others. They can align people to accomplish tasks the individual might not consider, promote a sense of identity and unity, gather and distribute resources, and many other similar social functions.

Sure, but this has zip to do with whether the particular god all these social constructs are organised around actually exists. It's just a bi-product of the belief and if you're going to introduce bi-products you have to include the negatives of tribalism, fanaticism, religious war, discrimination and oppression. Far better to organise our societies around real values such as law and order, equality, family, security, charity, health and education and democracy. No daft rituals required.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 05-07-2016 10:22 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 05-07-2016 12:19 PM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28446
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 87 of 162 (783663)
05-07-2016 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Tangle
05-07-2016 12:04 PM


Tangle writes:

Jar writes:

But both of those are also simply not correct. First, there is absolutely no reason even an interventionist god could not use entirely natural methods to intervene. For example by influencing someones thinking or behavior or any other non-detectable method.

If that actually happened, there wouldn't be tens of thousands of different religions - unless you're saying that this/these god are just messing with us?

Nonsense. I have already stipulated that religions are all man made and many, many, many times described the difference between the concept of GOD, God(s) and god(s). I will run it by yet again if you want.

Tangle writes:

jar writes:

What it does eliminate is the show off caricature god like the one in the Exodus myth.

And all the rest. Except one. But which one?

No, it only eliminates that one god and any similar gods. There could be one GOD or many GODS but not necessarily (actually almost certainly) not any God(s) or god(s) we can discuss.

Tangle writes:

jar writes:

Second, organized religions as a concept can make sense even when the god they market may be absurd to others. They can align people to accomplish tasks the individual might not consider, promote a sense of identity and unity, gather and distribute resources, and many other similar social functions.

Sure, but this has zip to do with whether the particular god all these social constructs are organised around actually exists. It's just a bi-product of the belief and if you're going to introduce bi-products you have to include the negatives of tribalism, fanaticism, religious war, discrimination and oppression. Far better to organise our societies around real values such as law and order, equality, family, security, charity, health and education and democracy. No daft rituals required.

Man does not live by requirements alone nor does the actual existence of a particular God have any real implications when it comes to any religion. Stop and think. Consider just one small aspect of religions, the Christian Bible stories. If you actually read the stories you find they describe many different characters all considered the Judaic God, God of the Bible. It is irrelevant that the actual descriptions of the characteristics are often mutually exclusive, contradictory, evil beyond belief and in many cases jess plain silly. Christianity still makes claim to worship "The God of the Bible".

In addition, religion and other social aspects are not mutually exclusive. There is plenty of room for multiple organizations.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 12:04 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 8:00 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4416
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 88 of 162 (783694)
05-07-2016 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
05-07-2016 12:02 PM


Faith writes:

Oh good grief. It would be helpful if you knew just a little about the history of western civilization, -- supposedly the civilization you grew up in (?) -- and the religion that built it. Sigh.

I'm pretty well educated Faith, if you have a point to make, please make it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 12:02 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 23985
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 89 of 162 (783702)
05-07-2016 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tangle
05-07-2016 9:56 AM


jar writes:

Actually many such as Hinduism can also accept Christianity as just another set of gods.

So long as you do the other stuff as well. They have hundreds of gods, it's not the precise god that matters it's the practices that need to be followed that define Hinduism.

Not really, they're very egalitarian when it comes to any god you want to offer them and don't require anything in terms of practice. Of course they'll be happy to teach you their practices if you're interested. Kind of the way Roman Catholicism is these days: you can believe anything you want, even be an atheist, and they'll pronounce you within the pale.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 9:56 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4416
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 90 of 162 (783703)
05-07-2016 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
05-07-2016 12:19 PM


Jar writes:

Nonsense. I have already stipulated that religions are all man made and many, many, many times described the difference between the concept of GOD, God(s) and god(s). I will run it by yet again if you want.

It's not nonsense, but so long as we're in agreement that religions are man-made there's no need to go to the trouble.

No, it only eliminates that one god and any similar gods. There could be one GOD or many GODS but not necessarily (actually almost certainly) not any God(s) or god(s) we can discuss.

That needs an explanation but I suspect it's a rabbit warren.

Man does not live by requirements alone nor does the actual existence of a particular God have any real implications when it comes to any religion.

They would not agree with you on that.

Consider just one small aspect of religions, the Christian Bible stories. If you actually read the stories you find they describe many different characters all considered the Judaic God, God of the Bible. It is irrelevant that the actual descriptions of the characteristics are often mutually exclusive, contradictory, evil beyond belief and in many cases jess plain silly. Christianity still makes claim to worship "The God of the Bible".

Sure, people, as we know, will happily believe what they would like to believe.

In addition, religion and other social aspects are not mutually exclusive. There is plenty of room for multiple organizations.

That's currently being tested in the real world. The evidence appears to be that the more educated a society becomes, the less need it has for religion and superstitions.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 05-07-2016 12:19 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:07 PM Tangle has responded

  
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