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Author Topic:   This belief thing
Faith
Member
Posts: 25306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 162 (783704)
05-07-2016 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Tangle
05-07-2016 8:00 PM


Sure, people, as we know, will happily believe what they would like to believe.

And that of course includes atheists and evolutionists and Pessimists?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 8:00 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2016 4:22 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4766
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 92 of 162 (783723)
05-08-2016 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Faith
05-07-2016 8:07 PM


Faith writes:

And that of course includes atheists and evolutionists and Pessimists?

Atheists are human too so they're susceptable to all the human frailties, but they are far less likely to fall for unevidenced nonsense than, say, biblical literalists.

As there's no such thing as an evolutionist we can pass over that, and anybody at all - from greengrocers to nuns - can be a pessimist so I'm not clear what that trait has to do with anything.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 05-07-2016 8:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 05-08-2016 4:49 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 162 (783726)
05-08-2016 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Tangle
05-08-2016 4:22 AM


I really wasn't sure what you'd say. Interesting that of course it's only people you disagree with who believe what they want to believe, not the people you agree with or humanity at large as you originally said. I just threw pessimists in for comic relief, although one could seriously ask if their pessimism reflects a desire to see things pessimistically.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2016 4:22 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2016 5:43 AM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4766
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 94 of 162 (783730)
05-08-2016 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
05-08-2016 4:49 AM


Faith writes:

Interesting that of course it's only people you disagree with who believe what they want to believe, not the people you agree with or humanity at large as you originally said.

You have a habbit of seeing what you want to see Faith. Did you not notice that I said that atheists were human and therefore also susceptible to human traits? It's axiomatic that atheists are less likely to be taken in by supertition and primitive belief systems than religious extremists.

I just threw pessimists in for comic relief, although one could seriously ask if their pessimism reflects a desire to see things pessimistically.

Now now, let's not do the disingenuous thing. You inferred and are now stating it outloud that atheists are pessimists. How do you arrive at that conclusion?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 05-08-2016 4:49 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 05-08-2016 2:27 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 162 (783762)
05-08-2016 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Tangle
05-08-2016 5:43 AM


I just threw pessimists in for comic relief, although one could seriously ask if their pessimism reflects a desire to see things pessimistically.

Now now, let's not do the disingenuous thing. You inferred and are now stating it outloud that atheists are pessimists. How do you arrive at that conclusion?

Uh, I didn't arrive at that conclusion, I didn't even suspect the possibility of such a connection. The truth is what I said, I threw in the pessimist as a completely independent whimsical thought, no more than that, no connection with atheism or anything else, just another kind of "ist" that for some reason popped into my head, that I also thought humorous.

And the question is serious: where do you draw the line between the sorts of people who believe things because they are stu*pid enough to believe what they desire to believe, and those who are toughminded enough to reject their own subjectivity in a sincere desire to get at the truth.

Well, you seem to draw that line at the people who believe things you think are stu*pid and unfounded, out of personal bias.

It was God who led me to belief of course, but I could think it was my own toughmindedness that allowed me to see the truth in Christianity against a tidal wave of cultural and intellectual reasons not to, and I would never make the division between people that you do based on the CONTENT of their belief. Yes I saw what you said about atheists being mush-headed sometimes too but then you went on to claim that nevertheless in general they are more toughminded than those who believe in "superstitions and primitive belief systems." You do know I was an atheist for at least thirty years between my childhood nominal belief in a God and my being persuaded to Christianity after much reading about religions in my mid-late-forties? I don't know what the statistics are but your own personal bias is the biggest part of this judgment you are making.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2016 5:43 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Tangle, posted 05-08-2016 3:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4766
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 96 of 162 (783768)
05-08-2016 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
05-08-2016 2:27 PM


Faith writes:

Uh, I didn't arrive at that conclusion, I didn't even suspect the possibility of such a connection. The truth is what I said, I threw in the pessimist as a completely independent whimsical thought, no more than that, no connection with atheism or anything else, just another kind of "ist" that for some reason popped into my head, that I also thought humorous.

Bizarre behaviour even for you.


And the question is serious: where do you draw the line between the sorts of people who believe things because they are stu*pid enough to believe what they desire to believe, and those who are toughminded enough to reject their own subjectivity in a sincere desire to get at the truth.

Why would I draw a line and why do you think it's only stupid people that believe what they desire to believe? Being what you call toughminded is probably a hinderence in getting to the truth. In your case it mean rejecting anything that doesn't conform to you preconceived ideas. It requires you to reject truth. That's just pig-headed obduracy.

Well, you seem to draw that line at the people who believe things you think are stu*pid and unfounded, out of personal bias.I of course think it was my own toughmindedness that allowed me to see the truth in Christianity against a tidal wave of cultural and intellectual reasons not to,

If there is a tidal wave of evidence, and your objections to it are unreasonable, what you're being is not 'toughminded' it's intransigent.

Yes I saw what you said about atheists being mush-headed sometimes too

You really don't care what you make up do you?

but then you went on to claim that nevertheless in general they are more toughminded than those who believe in "superstitions and primitive belief systems."

No I didn't. You made that up too.

You do know I was an atheist for at least thirty years between my childhood nominal belief in a God and my being persuaded to Christianity after much reading about religions in my mid-late-forties?

So you have said many times. I would guess that that is a very unusual event.

I don't know what the statistics are but your own personal bias is the biggest part of this judgment you are making.

Like you say, you don't know what the statistics are. But I do. There are tens of thousands of beliefs, you believe that your particular branch of one of them is correct and all the others are wrong - including the biggest branch of your flavour of Christianity. So the odds of you being correct are 1 in many thousands. We could do the real numbers but I'm sure you get the point. We could do them another way too and say that your particular version has a few thousand followers and all the other religions have billions; do you want to do the maths? Where is my bias in that?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 05-08-2016 2:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 97 of 162 (783808)
05-08-2016 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
05-07-2016 8:39 AM


jar writes:

He's only the same god to some extent? He either is or he ain't Faith. He can't be only a bit the same god.

I don't agree with that jar. Different people hold different views on the nature and their expectations of politicians for example but they are still the same people.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2016 8:39 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 05-08-2016 9:57 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 99 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2016 4:51 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29032
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 98 of 162 (783809)
05-08-2016 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by GDR
05-08-2016 9:49 PM


Good thing I didn't write that then isn't it?

That is a quote from Tangle.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by GDR, posted 05-08-2016 9:49 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4766
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 99 of 162 (783853)
05-09-2016 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by GDR
05-08-2016 9:49 PM


GDR writes:

I don't agree with that jar. Different people hold different views on the nature and their expectations of politicians for example but they are still the same people.

As you say, they can hold different views but it's still the same politician. Faith is claiming that she and you may be voting for different politicians whilst calling him by the same name.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by GDR, posted 05-08-2016 9:49 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 05-09-2016 11:24 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 162 (783855)
05-09-2016 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Tangle
05-09-2016 4:51 AM


I didn't say what you are quoting in the quote box under my name, GDR did.

As you say, they can hold different views but it's still the same politician. Faith is claiming that she and you may be voting for different politicians whilst calling him by the same name.

If the characteristics are different it seems likely we're not talking about the same person.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2016 4:51 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2016 11:40 AM Faith has responded
 Message 102 by jar, posted 05-09-2016 12:06 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 110 by Modulous, posted 05-09-2016 3:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4766
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 101 of 162 (783856)
05-09-2016 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
05-09-2016 11:24 AM


Faith writes:

I didn't say what you are quoting in the quote box under my name, GDR did.

Fixed, thanks

If the characteristics are different it seems likely we're not talking about the same person.

This is the problem all religions have - they can't even agree amongst themselves even core belifs like which god they believe in. Two supposed Christians saying that they worship different gods. What more evidence is required to show that you're all making it up to suit?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 05-09-2016 11:24 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 05-09-2016 12:27 PM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29032
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 102 of 162 (783860)
05-09-2016 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
05-09-2016 11:24 AM


The Gods of the Bible...from the beginning
Faith writes:

If the characteristics are different it seems likely we're not talking about the same person.

And so since the characteristics of the God character found in Genesis 1 are entirely different than the God character found in Genesis 2&3 then those stories are not talking about the same God. Got it Faith.

But as you can see Faith, that is just more evidence that not only are Christianity and Judaism and Islam simply human constructs, the Bible stories themselves are just human constructs and just reflect what the people of a given era, culture and mythos imagined their God to be like and imagined their relationship with a god character (as well as other humans and the rest of the environment) and have meaning only withing those constraints.

The God you market is just some amalgam of all the different descriptions, often mutually exclusive, contradictory and even evil that are found in those stories.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 05-09-2016 11:24 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25306
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 103 of 162 (783863)
05-09-2016 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Tangle
05-09-2016 11:40 AM


This is the problem all religions have - they can't even agree amongst themselves even core belifs like which god they believe in. Two supposed Christians saying that they worship different gods. What more evidence is required to show that you're all making it up to suit?

Um, that's an odd conclusion to draw from what I said. The Bible provides a portrait of God and His doings. If someone decides he doesn't like some things about that portrait and throws out parts of the description for that reason, as a result he's going to come up with a different portrait, and if it's different enough how can we call it the same God? If the Bible says Jesus died to pay for our sins but the tamperer doesn't like that idea so pretends it isn't there, that's a different Jesus. This isn't the Bible's fault, or the fault of those who believe what's written, it's the tamperer's fault.

Jar does something else. Since God is presented in the Bible as being both severe and merciful, wrathful and patient, jealous and longsuffering, jar decides there is more than one god there. Most normal readers of the Bible understand that there is a time for wrath and a time for patience in the same personality, but not jar.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2016 11:40 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2016 1:29 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 106 by jar, posted 05-09-2016 1:54 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4766
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 104 of 162 (783872)
05-09-2016 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
05-09-2016 12:27 PM


Faith writes:

that's an odd conclusion to draw from what I said.

It simply flows from what you have said, which is that you're not sure that you and GDR worship the same god, yet you each call yourself Christian.

Jar does something else. Since God is presented in the Bible as being both severe and merciful, wrathful and patient, jealous and longsuffering, jar decides there is more than one god there. Most normal readers of the Bible understand that there is a time for wrath and a time for patience in the same personality, but not jar.

Most normal readers of the bible take the stories as myth.

Jar's reading is just another version. Three Christians, 3 different gods. Go figure.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 05-09-2016 12:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12516
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 105 of 162 (783873)
05-09-2016 1:32 PM


Topic Reminder
I encouraged participants to discuss This belief thing from a non-Christian perspective so as to avoid having one side feel the other side was attacking their beliefs. The focus has instead been on Christian beliefs, and so far the discussion hasn't suffered, but I wanted to mention that I still consider it a risk. I interpret this thread as about why people latch onto one set of beliefs instead of another, not why they latch onto one particular Christian's set of beliefs.

The current course of discussion seems fine and productive, I just wanted to repeat my concerns again.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

    
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