PC Gone Too Far

So is the Vietnam Memorial wall of names politically incorrect given that we were committing atrocities, killing women & children & ruining the country for shit reasons? Should that be moved into some museum of "Things this country did in the past that were very bad"?

ringo asks: not answering this, but just sayin' tonight I go to the Cinco de Mayo evening at the Gardner Ale House and I will attempt to perform Dylan's most appropriate song, Isis.There's even a drizzlin' rain.

The american indians are still to this day virulently incensed over the obnoxious sculptures on their sacred Dakota lands. Given the genocide they were subjected to as symbolized by the sculptures, shouldn't Mount Rushmore be destroyed?

Ringo writes: Yes, the NAZI death camps are being preserved precisely for this reason.The mantra is, over & over, NEVER AGAIN! NEVER FORGET!

NN, arguing with Percy, writes: Somehow I don't think Percy was talking about justification, per se. If I read it him right, it was about understanding the time and context of the predominant culture as a better way to see the history. If you were a poor white growing up in the south, you were likely to have absorbed the racist views of your family & peers and lived your life accordingly. That doesn't justify it, but it can throw light on it. It helps to understand why things happened the way they did. We want to preserve what we can of each of these times & contexts so that we have a better historical record.More information is good, isn't it?

Did you see my Message 188?

NoNukes responding to bluegenes: Ah, I see, you do agree with Percy. Moving this monument to a Museum or a Confederate Cemetery, if the Kentuckians want to, is not erasing history. But just destroying it or mothballing it in a dusty museum warehouse is erasing history. Perhaps it can be put inside a little fence with a new plaque explaining how typically wrong the South was to make this monument....or maybe that would fall under "apologies".... Never forget! is the mantra we should consider.

NoNukes comments: except i said dusty museum WAREHOUSE, not the Museum itself. Think those cavernous basements of rows and rows of shelves, and maybe against one of the walls, piles of stuff too tall to fit on a shelf, like this case.It was also a play on "consigned to the dustbins of history".

From the end of the Raiders of the Lost Ark:

bluegenes writes: of course not. nor even genocide....but slavery can be worse than death. and often was and still is today.Bob Dylan used the old blues rubric of "Killing me alive" and contrasted that with "Killing me dead". I can cite the lyrics of these. Which is worse? Being kept alive to watch them rape & kill your daughter in front of your eyes or be mercifully stabbed to death before you have to endure such things?so....
anyway - who here is arguing against the removal of this monument? i don't have the feeling that it is Percy. I think he's just observing history & saying we need to keep all the bad shit as well as all the good shit for reference.Edited by xongsmith, : No reason given.

Ringo asks: I guess the easiest way is to note that how our society judges things CHANGES. The argument here, perhaps, is to recognize and preserve those historical items that cannot be changed, and thereby be able to judge them again and again with an evermore more modern perspective.BTW, this song, sung by the great Levon Helm of old dark Arkansas, is very pertinent:"The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down"Virgil Kane is the name
And I served on the Danville train
'Till Stoneman's cavalry came
And tore up the tracks againIn the winter of '65
We were hungry, just barely alive
By May the 10th, Richmond had fell
It's a time I remember, oh so wellThe night they drove old Dixie down
And the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And the people were singing
They went, "Na, na, la, na, na, la"Back with my wife in Tennessee
When one day she called to me
"Virgil, quick, come see,
There goes Robert E. Lee!"Now, I don't mind chopping wood
And I don't care if the money's no good
You take what you need
And you leave the rest
But they should never
Have taken the very bestThe night they drove old Dixie down
And the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the people were singing
They went, "Na, na, la, na, na, la"Like my father before me
I will work the land
And like my brother above me
Who took a rebel standHe was just 18, proud and brave
But a Yankee laid him in his grave
I swear by the mud below my feet
You can't raise a Kane back up
When he's in defeatThe night they drove old Dixie down
And the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the people were singing
They went, "Na, na, la, na, na, la"The night they drove old Dixie down
And all the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down
And the people were singing
They went, "Na, na, la, na, na, la"

Oh my, forgive me here, but I am guilty of revising history in song, myself.
Here is an old civil war song called "The Last Fierce Charge": 'Twas just before the last fierce charge
Two soldiers drew their rein
With a touch of hands, and parting words
That they might not meet again

​

One had mild blue eyes and curly hair
Just nineteen years, you know
With rosy cheeks and childish brow
He was only a boy, you know

​

The other was tall, dark, daring, and proud
Whose faith in this world was dim
He only trusted most in them
Who were all the world to him

​

They'd rode together for many a day
And marched for many a mile
But ne'er until now had they met a foe
With a peaceful common smile

​

They looked in each other's eyes
In the face of an awful doom
And the tall dark man was the first to speak
Saying, "Charlie, my time has come"

​

"We'll ride together into the fight
But you'll ride back alone
Then promise a little more trouble to take
When I am dead and gone"

​

"I have a face upon my breast
I'll wear it into the fight
With deep blue eyes and goiden hair
A face like morning light"

​

"Like morning light 'twas love to me
To brighten my lonely life
And little I've cared for the flowers of this world
Since she promised to be my wife"

​

"Write to her, Charlie, when I'm gone
Send back this fair young face
Write and tell her how I died
And where is my resting place"

​

"Tell her I will meet her on the border line
Of earth and heaven between
I know she'll meet me over there
And it won't be long, I ween"

​

There were tears in the eyes of the blue-eyed boy
His voice was filled with pain
"I'll do my comrade's parting wish
If I ride home again"

​

"But if you ride back and I am left
Will you do as much for me?
For I have a mother to hear the news
Write to her tenderly"

​

"One after another she has lost
She has buried all her husband's sons
And I was the last to my country's call
But she cheeredly sent me on"

​

"She is waiting at home like a praying saint
Her fair face filled with woe
'Twill break her heart when she hears I'm dead
I'll meet her soon, I know"

​

Just then there came an order to charge
An instant hands touched hands
Eyes answered eyes, and away they dashed
That bold devoted band

​

They rode together to the brow of the hill
Where the soldiers were stationed well
Past clouds and drifts of burning shots
That cheered them as they fell

​

But they had to turn from the awful fight
That fight they could not gain
And all those whom death had spared
Rode quietly back again

​

But among those dying upon the field
Lay the boy with the curly hair
And the tall, dark man that rode by his side
Lay dying by him there

​

There is no one to write to that blue-eyed girl
Those words her lover said
And the mother that's waiting at home for her son
Will learn that he is dead

​

She ne'er will know his last fond words
To cheer her in her pain
Until she crosses the river of death
And stands by his side again=================================================The late Mike Seeger unearthed this and somewhere along the line by the time he showed it to Jerry Garcia, many of the 20 verses had been chucked. Bob Dylan recorded it on his World Gone Wrong album and by then the words were: He was just a blue-eyed Boston boy,
His voice was low with pain.
"I'll do your bidding, comrade mine,
If I ride back again.
But if you ride back and I am left,
You'll do as much for me.
Mother, you know, must hear the news,
So write to her tenderly.

​

She's waiting at home like a patient saint,
Her fond face pale with woe.
Her heart will be broken when I am gone,
I'll see her soon, I know."
Just then the order came to charge,
For an instant hand touched hand.
They said, "Aye," and away they rode,
That brave and devoted band.

​

Straight was the track to the top of the hill,
The rebels they shot and shelled,
Plowed furrows of death through the toiling ranks,
And guarded them as they fell.
There soon came a horrible dying yell
From heights that they could not gain,
And those whom doom and death had spared
Rode slowly back again.

​

But among the dead that were left on the hill
Was the boy with the curly hair.
The tall dark man who rode by his side
Lay dead beside him there.
There's no one to write to the blue-eyed girl
The words that her lover had said.
Momma, you know, awaits the news,
And she'll only know he's dead. ===========================================Now, I'm listening to this and I'm thinking that, hey?, A LOT is missing. After the usual googling around I found the longer version above - published in a Southern newspaper! This meant the the North had stolen the song and changed the perspective (Boston Boy, the rebels they shot & shelled) - talk about dusty museum warehouses, indeed.Well, all of that was too long, but to do what Jerry/Mike/Dylan had done was a disservice methinks, so I condensed all of that beginning stuff to this version, supplying a missing 1st verse: He rode to the boy with curly hair,
In urgency, stern and tall,
Saying "I have a kindness to ask of you,
If it's today I should fall.
You'll surely know of my own true love
From the letters kept next to my breast.
Tell her our love will forever live on
And tell her where I'm laid to rest."...which then glues onto the WGW version: He was just a blue-eyed Boston boy,
His voice was low with pain.
"I'll do your bidding, comrade mine,
If I ride back again.
But if you ride back and I am left,
You'll do as much for me.
Mother, you know, must hear the news,
So write to her tenderly.........etcso here I am falsifying history via the folk process....

NoNukes continues to miss the issue with: If I may be so bold as to conjecture here, I think Percy would want EVERY SINGLE THING FOLKS SAID AND DID to be a matter of record, nothing swept under any rug on either side, we need to be able to see everything we can.Student: "Hey...it says here that the NAZIs used something called Zyklon gas...what's that? How do you make it?"History Professor: "I dunno - they burned up the books with all that knowledge long ago. But we can feel safe knowing that whatever it was, it was very HORRIBLE. In fact, it was EVIL!" What this thread is about, perhaps, is more at "How did they make the Confederacy?"

ringo misses wide: *facepalm*
maybe there should be a hyperbole font.i thought i was making a dumbed-down analogy.....ah well, SMH

probably a big mistake to fight someone who is behaving like a troll, but:First off Bluegenes, your whole argument is off line here in this thread. Yes, we know that, in your mind and in mine, when you're dead, you're dead.But if you for one minute think that the Trail of Tears or being gassed to death or having your family ripped away and murdered in front of your eyes are not very close, then i'm sorry - you have a heart of coal. In all cases there are survivors who WILL NOT FORGET. But wouldn't the corpses HAVE EXPERIENCED traumatic experience? Are you saying that you don't care about the suffering of the Holocaust victims had to endure because they're all dead now? C'mon. get real. As opposed to the native tribes in North America when white man nearly (just like Hitler was trying to do) wiped them out??? Gimme a break. You are arguing something completely adjunct to this discussion - yes - when you die, you feel no more pain. You don't feel anything. So what? Your level of comparison is off-topic. We're talking about empathy, suffering,...yunno, all those things that you apparently cannot express from your own self. Come home! You are a human being? Yes? ?? ?I know you can do it..........