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Author Topic:   PC Gone Too Far
NoNukes
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Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 676 of 725 (808533)
05-11-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 673 by Percy
05-11-2017 10:49 AM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
Removing the statue just makes it more difficult to preserve this part of our history.

Preserving part of your hallowed history does not require putting monuments in the most prominent places in town. Museums work just fine. If you need to remind folks that these statues date from 100 years ago rather than 150 years ago, you probably need a plaque for that anyway as most folks cannot tell by simply seeing the statutes.

Apparently, the majority of the folks in New Orleans don't want the statutes displayed in the middle of town; the plan is to move them to a museum, something which is highly appropriate in my opinion. Undoubtedly, the full details of what folks thought at the time would be included in such a display. Also by the criteria of at least one poster, this particular moving would not be PC because it is not a tactic being employed by the minority that most be resisted at all costs.

And apparently, a minority of local folks think that 'people of color' must be required to stub their toe on these things every day. Fortunately, we know that their threats and protests are just PC gone to far.

vimesey writes:

a monument to the lynched/enslaved/murdered slaves/people of colour who suffered as a result of the Confederacy.

Suppose that already existed. Suppose that 100 years ago, white supremacists had already erected a monument celebrating a famous lynching. Would that be enough of a reminder, so that nothing additional would be needed? We could tell 'people of color' to pretend that those statues were honoring their ancestors rather than celebrating their deaths.

From the mayor of New Orleans:

quote:
Getting here wasn’t easy. It took a two-year review process, a City Council vote and victories over multiple legal challenges. The original firm we’d hired to remove the monuments backed out after receiving death threats and having one of his cars set ablaze. Nearly every heavy-crane company in southern Louisiana has received threats from opponents. Some have likened these monuments to other monuments around the world from bygone eras, and have argued that civic resources would be better spent trying to educate the public about the history they embody. Respectfully, that’s not the point. As mayor, I must consider their impact on our entire city. It’s my job to chart the course ahead, not simply to venerate the past.

The record is clear: New Orleans’s Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis and P.G.T. Beauregard statues were erected with the goal of rewriting history to glorify the Confederacy and perpetuate the idea of white supremacy. These monuments stand not as mournful markers of our legacy of slavery and segregation, but in reverence of it. They are an inaccurate recitation of our past, an affront to our present and a poor prescription for our future.


I'm going with the mayor on this. Put these monstrosities in a museum and take eighth-graders of every color on a tour to see them in their proper context.

More from the mayor:

quote:
Our history is forever intertwined with that of our great nation — including its most terrible sins. We must always remember our history and learn from it. But that doesn’t mean we must valorize the ugliest chapters, as we do when we put the Confederacy on a pedestal — literally — in our most prominent public places.

Yeah, that's exactly how I see it.

Of course, you know better than the mayor of New Orleans and its citizens what ought to be done with those local statutes.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by Percy, posted 05-11-2017 10:49 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 12:36 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 678 by vimesey, posted 05-11-2017 12:37 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 679 by Percy, posted 05-11-2017 1:27 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6439
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


(2)
Message 677 of 725 (808534)
05-11-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 676 by NoNukes
05-11-2017 12:29 PM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
NoNukes writes:

I'm going with the mayor on this. Put these monstrosities in a museum and take eighth-graders of every color on a tour to see them in their proper context.

To put this in a more modern context, imagine if Nazis after WWII erected a massive statue of Hitler in the main town square of Berlin in reverence of their much beloved leader. Imagine if the statue was still held in high esteem by modern day Nazis, and that anti-Semitism was still rampant in some parts of Germany.

I think we would all think that the Hitler statue would be an affront to human rights and human decency.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by NoNukes, posted 05-11-2017 12:29 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 685 by Chiroptera, posted 05-12-2017 9:04 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 848
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 678 of 725 (808536)
05-11-2017 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 676 by NoNukes
05-11-2017 12:29 PM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
Of course, you know better than the mayor of New Orleans and its citizens what ought to be done with those local statutes.

Nope. Just entitled to express a thought - particularly when prefaced with the words "Perhaps the middle ground might be".


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by NoNukes, posted 05-11-2017 12:29 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 679 of 725 (808567)
05-11-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 676 by NoNukes
05-11-2017 12:29 PM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
NoNukes writes:

Preserving part of your hallowed history...

And yours, too.

If you need to remind folks that these statues date from 100 years ago rather than 150 years ago, you probably need a plaque for that anyway as most folks cannot tell by simply seeing the statutes.

Yes, I already said that would be fine.

Apparently, the majority of the folks in New Orleans don't want the statutes displayed in the middle of town; the plan is to move them to a museum, something which is highly appropriate in my opinion.

If they end up in a museum then that would also be fine, but will they actually end up there? If they do end up in a museum will that really be the end of the objections, or will the objections then become to the museum displays?

quote:
Our history is forever intertwined with that of our great nation — including its most terrible sins. We must always remember our history and learn from it. But that doesn’t mean we must valorize the ugliest chapters, as we do when we put the Confederacy on a pedestal — literally — in our most prominent public places.

Yeah, that's exactly how I see it.

I agree with the sentiments but not with the solution. We're whitewashing history. Don't remove them, add context. It deserves to be publicly remembered how slowly attitudes change, how recently was the South still venerated, how (as someone recently reminded us in this thread) such attitudes persist still.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by NoNukes, posted 05-11-2017 12:29 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 680 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-11-2017 1:30 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 681 by ringo, posted 05-11-2017 1:31 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 682 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 1:42 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 683 by NoNukes, posted 05-11-2017 8:09 PM Percy has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15928
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 680 of 725 (808568)
05-11-2017 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by Percy
05-11-2017 1:27 PM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
Don't remove them, add context.

Hmm, how about a statue of Hitler on one side and a statue of Stalin on the other?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by Percy, posted 05-11-2017 1:27 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13023
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 681 of 725 (808569)
05-11-2017 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by Percy
05-11-2017 1:27 PM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
Percy writes:

We're whitewashing history.


"Whitewashing" would imply that we're trying to make something ugly look better. The opposite seems to be true.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by Percy, posted 05-11-2017 1:27 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6439
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 682 of 725 (808574)
05-11-2017 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by Percy
05-11-2017 1:27 PM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
Percy writes:

If they end up in a museum then that would also be fine, but will they actually end up there? If they do end up in a museum will that really be the end of the objections, or will the objections then become to the museum displays?

There are museums that deal with the Holocaust, mistreatment of Native Americans, and plenty of other ugly parts of history. No one seems to object to them.

In our culture, the statues you place in public squares are meant to describe your city's values. That's why these statues are being taken down and moved, because they run counter to the values that NO citizens want to be represented. A museum display detailing the relics of racism, slavery, and the Confederacy wouldn't be considered an expression of NO's values in the same way.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by Percy, posted 05-11-2017 1:27 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 683 of 725 (808637)
05-11-2017 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by Percy
05-11-2017 1:27 PM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
I agree with the sentiments but not with the solution. We're whitewashing history.

Apparently, we agree that history can be preserved without these statutes being located in the center of town. Absent some story that these statues won't make it to a museum, I don't see how NO can be accused of whitewashing anything.

ABE:

Apparently, a number of folks have offered to place the statues in a museum or to display them outdoors. Perhaps we can put off the accusations of whitewashing as premature?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by Percy, posted 05-11-2017 1:27 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 684 by Percy, posted 05-12-2017 8:06 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 684 of 725 (808671)
05-12-2017 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 683 by NoNukes
05-11-2017 8:09 PM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
NoNukes writes:

Perhaps we can put off the accusations of whitewashing as premature?

Whatever term is used, the point is that the further these monuments are removed from the public eye the more they're out of our consciousness. The more history is forgotten the better its mistakes can be repeated.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 683 by NoNukes, posted 05-11-2017 8:09 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 686 by NoNukes, posted 05-12-2017 6:40 PM Percy has responded
 Message 689 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2017 2:59 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6323
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 685 of 725 (808686)
05-12-2017 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 677 by Taq
05-11-2017 12:36 PM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
To put this in a more modern context, imagine if Nazis after WWII erected a massive statue of Hitler in the main town square of Berlin in reverence of their much beloved leader.

That analogy is a better one than the one I had in mind.

Seeing the veneration that some people still hold the old Confederacy - and the historical revisionism some racists are engaging in (as well as black Ameican still being denied their place as equal citizens) - removing symbols and monuments associated with the Confederacy and slave-owning culture is more like a lower key, less obtrusive form of the de-Nazification Germany went through after WWII.


Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all. – Billy Bragg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 12:36 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 686 of 725 (808768)
05-12-2017 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 684 by Percy
05-12-2017 8:06 AM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
Whatever term is used, the point is that the further these monuments are removed from the public eye the more they're out of our consciousness. The more history is forgotten the better its mistakes can be repeated.

Again, we are both on record as being fine with a museum. If that is no longer your position, just say so, and I will address that.

There are competing concerns here, only one of which is making sure that we don't forget about "mistakes" that were nothing of the sort. In this case, I think a museum is a great balance. There is no reason that I need to have J. Davis constantly in view every time I go downtown. My memory is better than that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 684 by Percy, posted 05-12-2017 8:06 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 687 by Percy, posted 05-13-2017 8:36 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 687 of 725 (808801)
05-13-2017 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 686 by NoNukes
05-12-2017 6:40 PM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
NoNukes writes:

Whatever term is used, the point is that the further these monuments are removed from the public eye the more they're out of our consciousness. The more history is forgotten the better its mistakes can be repeated.

Again, we are both on record as being fine with a museum. If that is no longer your position, just say so, and I will address that.

Nothing I said contradicts what I said earlier. It's a general principal. And perhaps the public is better off when constantly faced with uncomfortable truths.

There are competing concerns here, only one of which is making sure that we don't forget about "mistakes" that were nothing of the sort. In this case, I think a museum is a great balance. There is no reason that I need to have J. Davis constantly in view every time I go downtown. My memory is better than that.

But out of sight, out of mind. The balance comes at a cost, and at risk of eventual consignment to storage. Museums must show what the public wants to see if they want the public to show up. If the Jefferson Davis statue is something people don't want to see then it won't survive long on public display. It would be interesting to see what the museum display eventually looks like, what kind of context they create.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 686 by NoNukes, posted 05-12-2017 6:40 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 688 by NoNukes, posted 05-13-2017 12:02 PM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9541
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 688 of 725 (808821)
05-13-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 687 by Percy
05-13-2017 8:36 AM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
And perhaps the public is better off when constantly faced with uncomfortable truths.

You are indeed contradicting what you said. The idea that the public is better off faced with the statues directly contradicts the idea that a museum is good enough.

But out of sight, out of mind. The balance comes at a cost, and at risk of eventual consignment to storage.

If balance is not a proper thing to do, then why don't we all put statues of Jefferson Davis in out backyards? Why isn't there a forum on EvC dedicated to reminding us of the lessons of the civil war?

Being unbalanced also has a cost. Statues of Jefferson Davis are rallying points for neo-Confederates. They are eyesores that detract from the message New Orleans many want to present to tourists. The idea that other concerns are less important that the one you suggest is, IMO, an extreme and ridiculous position.

And no, out of sight does not always mean out of mind. I haven't been near a statue or carving of Jefferson Davis in years. But I will note that there are plenty of streets named after the fellow all over the country. The idea that JD was revered by many folks is not something I am likely to forget.

Edited by NoNukes, : ABE is marked.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 687 by Percy, posted 05-13-2017 8:36 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 690 by Percy, posted 05-14-2017 8:52 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15928
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 689 of 725 (808844)
05-14-2017 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 684 by Percy
05-12-2017 8:06 AM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
Whatever term is used, the point is that the further these monuments are removed from the public eye the more they're out of our consciousness. The more history is forgotten the better its mistakes can be repeated.

Well, we actually know what folks in the South have forgotten about history, and it seems at least plausible that their veneration of the Confederacy has helped them to forget it. So if the point is to have public aide-mémoires for history students, let's take down the statues and replace them with big placards saying YES, THE CIVIL WAR WAS ABOUT SLAVERY. And then when they've all learned that lesson maybe they can put the statues back up --- if they want to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 684 by Percy, posted 05-12-2017 8:06 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15622
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 690 of 725 (808865)
05-14-2017 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 688 by NoNukes
05-13-2017 12:02 PM


Re: New Orleans is Removing Confederate War Monuments
NoNukes writes:

You are indeed contradicting what you said. The idea that the public is better off faced with the statues directly contradicts the idea that a museum is good enough.

Museum good, public display better, is not a contradiction. And I've expressed reservations about the museum alternative from the beginning.

If balance is not a proper thing to do, then why don't we all put statues of Jefferson Davis in out backyards? Why isn't there a forum on EvC dedicated to reminding us of the lessons of the civil war?

I think I'm more arguing that balance as you're advocating it may not really be balancing. It's a way of hiding history.

Being unbalanced also has a cost. Statues of Jefferson Davis are rallying points for neo-Confederates. They are eyesores that detract from the message New Orleans many want to present to tourists. The idea that other concerns are less important that the one you suggest is, IMO, an extreme and ridiculous position.

Not less important, also important.

And no, out of sight does not always mean out of mind.

Another danger is that even within sight can mean out of mind. Something you see everyday just sinks into the backdrop and goes unnoticed.

I haven't been near a statue or carving of Jefferson Davis in years. But I will note that there are plenty of streets named after the fellow all over the country. The idea that JD was revered by many folks is not something I am likely to forget.

You keep using yourself as an example. I would argue you're not typical.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 688 by NoNukes, posted 05-13-2017 12:02 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 691 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-14-2017 8:54 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
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