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Author Topic:   The Science in Creationism
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 986 (783155)
05-03-2016 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dawn Bertot
05-03-2016 9:02 PM


Re: Falsification
Dawn Bertot writes:
Yes I'll be happy to answer it. Is there clear Purpose as a result of things operating in a clear logical ordered fashion
No!

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2016 9:02 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2016 10:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 986 (783168)
05-03-2016 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dawn Bertot
05-03-2016 10:04 PM


Re: Falsification
Dawn Bertot writes:
Since I can clearly see these things in nature your answer would be the same as if I asked someone if things exist and they answered No
Nonsense. I have known people that see unicorns and fairies and aliens and miracles. That does not mean that any of those exist. The fact that YOU claim to be able to see something only means you believe you see something, not that there is really anything there.
Dawn Bertot writes:
You need to do away with this purpose and order not just imagine they don't exist
No, you have to do more than simply assert something exists such as order and purpose.
Let's see what you can actually do.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-03-2016 10:04 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 12:46 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 44 of 986 (783193)
05-04-2016 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 12:46 AM


Re: Falsification
Dawn Bertot writes:
Am I imagining I can see with my eyes or hear with my ear. Did I imagine that purpose
That does not show purpose but only possible function.
You need to show that you can see purpose.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 12:46 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 986 (783218)
05-04-2016 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Taq
05-04-2016 11:36 AM


Re: The Basics
Taq writes:
You are arguing that creationism can have scientific merit. In order to support this argument, you must show how creationism can make testable and falsifiable predictions as it applies to the observations made in the field of biology.
I think a little bit more than that is needed; for example there needs to be some evidence that there is some designer and that Dawn's Creationism explains what is seen in the world better than the evolved under natural causes explanation.
There have been many posts over the decades pointing out the significant differences between what is seen in things known to be designed and in what is seen in those things not known to be designed. Dawn needs to present evidence that explains those differences and also explains what is seen better than the current theories.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Taq, posted 05-04-2016 11:36 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Taq, posted 05-04-2016 12:00 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 986 (783221)
05-04-2016 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Taq
05-04-2016 12:00 PM


Re: The Basics
Taq writes:
Accurate predictions are considered evidence in science. Accurate predictions are considered explanations.
But I fear many folk today simply don't understand what a prediction in science really is. Back over a decade ago I tried to point this out using the development of the periodic table as an illustration in Message 1.
The importance of prediction is not simply to get it right but to provide new information that can later be tested and verified.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Taq, posted 05-04-2016 12:00 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Taq, posted 05-04-2016 1:02 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 56 of 986 (783232)
05-04-2016 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Taq
05-04-2016 1:02 PM


Re: The Basics
Or the differences between what we see in nature and what we see in known designed objects. See Message 8

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Taq, posted 05-04-2016 1:02 PM Taq has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 130 of 986 (783336)
05-04-2016 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Taq
05-04-2016 10:10 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
There are also many ways to determine whether or not something is designed or evolved. The easiest way is to look on the bottom of the mug where we will find a made by or made in or corporate stamp. We can look at the traffic light and find the part numbers stamped on the components. We can find the tool marks on building blocks, the mortar between bricks, the fact that there are other similar objects made by known designers and creators. We can look at the works of ancient craftsmen and see the evidence of how they assembled objects, where they quarried the materials, trace the origin of different components to show that they did not simply evolve as a unit but rather consist of pieces parts gathered from distant places and then assembled in one location.
What Dawn needs to do is convince us that he can show the tool marks, where the component pieces originated, who did the assembly, provide the part numbers, the label, the logo the name of the designer so that others can verify his claims.
Simply claiming he can see something or asserting that there are some natural laws will carry no weight or value.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Taq, posted 05-04-2016 10:10 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 11:57 PM jar has replied
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 05-05-2016 12:39 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 160 of 986 (783372)
05-05-2016 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Dawn Bertot
05-04-2016 11:57 PM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
You do not provide even indirect evidence Dawn. Is it possible that you do not know what evidence is?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-04-2016 11:57 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 161 of 986 (783373)
05-05-2016 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by NoNukes
05-05-2016 12:39 AM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
NN writes:
Isn't the debate actually over despite the fact that he contains to say that it is not? Hasn't we already seen the concession despite the fact that Bertot continues?
Yup, the debate is over. Creationism is dead. There are still a few members in the club but they no longer debate or even discuss. The only place left for them is in the Avoidance community or by simply resorting to gibberish and the usual unsupported assertions. That way they can declare they won in spite of reality.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by NoNukes, posted 05-05-2016 12:39 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2016 8:59 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 182 of 986 (783396)
05-05-2016 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Dawn Bertot
05-05-2016 9:32 AM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
Dawn Bertot writes:
You Dr A. What your Mug factory does for you, specific revelation in the form of the word of God does for us. It supports our existing indirect evidence
And so despite all of Dawns assertions that he is describing science the TRUTH finally slips out.
Creationism is NOT Science and there is no Science, revelation to the select few.
The Science in Creationism is ancient mythos.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2016 9:32 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 186 of 986 (783400)
05-05-2016 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Genomicus
05-05-2016 9:54 AM


Re: Show Me The Evidence
That is too funny. Natural selection does not just happen to be here, it is what IS here. Natural section is "HERE".
The question about mutation is even funnier. It is simply errors. Shit happens. And sometimes that is what saves you.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Genomicus, posted 05-05-2016 9:54 AM Genomicus has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 193 of 986 (783408)
05-05-2016 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Dawn Bertot
05-05-2016 10:05 AM


What people actually claim vs Dawn's fantasy
Dawn Bertot writes:
What is your evidence that things initially happened by Exclusively natural causes
Sho w it to me
And so the Gish Gallop continues on.
Dawn, not a single person has said that things initially happened by Exclusively natural causes because it is utterly irrelevant.
What people have said is that there is ample evidence that only natural causes have ever been found for anything other than those things where we definitely know the designer and that designer be us and that solely natural causes exist to explain all that is seen today and in the few cases remaining where we do not know the cause we can say "We don't yet understand that one. But since no cause other than solely natural ones have ever been seen it is likely that when we do understand that one the cause like all others will turn out to be solely natural."
No God need apply.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2016 10:05 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2016 10:34 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 202 of 986 (783418)
05-05-2016 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by Dawn Bertot
05-05-2016 10:34 AM


Re: What people actually claim vs Dawn's fantasy
Dawn Bertot writes:
Your second paragraph here is what makes your position completely silly for several reasons.
Well let's look and see if your assertion can be supported. Here is my second paragraph.
quote:
Dawn, not a single person has said that things initially happened by Exclusively natural causes because it is utterly irrelevant.
Is it a fact that no one has said that things initially happened by Exclusively natural causes?
If so then you are simply objecting to the fact I pointed out that that is irrelevant anyway. So let's read on. In paragraph three I continue:
quote:
What people have said is that there is ample evidence that only natural causes have ever been found for anything other than those things where we definitely know the designer and that designer be us and that solely natural causes exist to explain all that is seen today and in the few cases remaining where we do not know the cause we can say "We don't yet understand that one. But since no cause other than solely natural ones have ever been seen it is likely that when we do understand that one the cause like all others will turn out to be solely natural."
Note I point out what people have actually said in the past. Next I point out why the claim of other than natural causes would be irrelevant.
The fact is that natural causes are sufficient to explain what is seen and in the few cases where causes are not yet know the proper answer is "We don't know that answer yet".
BUT, no cause other than a natural cause has ever been observed with the single exception of those examples where we have a known designer.
Until there is evidence of some other than natural cause is presented then there is no reason to imaging those causes we discover in the future will be other than natural.
Case closed. After all Dawn in Message 180 you already admitted that there is no Science in your position but rather some imagined Divine Revelation.
Dawn Bertot writes:
You Dr A. What your Mug factory does for you, specific revelation in the form of the word of God does for us. It supports our existing indirect evidence

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2016 10:34 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2016 11:54 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 207 of 986 (783433)
05-05-2016 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Dawn Bertot
05-05-2016 11:54 AM


Re: What people actually claim vs Dawn's fantasy
But you have not yet presented any evidence Dawn, zero.
And you have said that what you are using is some alleged divine revelation of a particular religion.
That is NOT science.
It is not indirect evidence.
It is not direct evidence of anything but a claim that YOU see some assertion you claim is in a religious text.
Bring a single example of something that has other than a natural cause which is not also something where we know both the cause and the designer?
Show us any evidence of a super-natural cause if you what us to consider super-natural causes?
Also try honesty Dawn. I have not made a claim of solely natural causes; I have said so far there is no evidence of anything other than natural causes except in those instances where we know the cause and designer.
Until you present evidence of something other than a natural cause there is no reason to even suspect anything but a natural cause.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Dawn Bertot, posted 05-05-2016 11:54 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by ICANT, posted 05-05-2016 12:58 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 245 of 986 (783476)
05-05-2016 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by ICANT
05-05-2016 12:58 PM


Re: What people actually claim vs Dawn's fantasy
ICANT writes:
The first Life form had no natural cause.
Sorry but do you actually have any evidence that is true or is that just another of your unsupported assertions?
ICANT writes:
There is no known cause or designer whether natural or supernatural except what is found in the Bible.
Really? What about Brahma's dreams or Odin and Ymir or Black Hactcin or Earthmaker or Pan Gu?
I haved the same news I have given you before. So far all causes ever found have been natural. We can see natural chemical reactions and some of those form the basics of known living things. Since nothing other than natural causes have ever been evidenced there is no reason to thing life is anything but the result of natural causes.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by ICANT, posted 05-05-2016 12:58 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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