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Author Topic:   A Simplified Proof That The Universe Cannot Be Explained
Percy
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Posts: 17560
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 316 of 329 (793441)
10-29-2016 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by nano
10-29-2016 6:54 AM


nano writes:

False. You are presenting an unknown future discovery to make your argument. It is in fact an Argument from Ignorance.

You still don't seem to know what the Argument from Ignorance fallacy is. I wasn't claiming to have proved anything logically. I only described science's history as one of explaining the previously unexplained. Given that history, you're very unlikely to have found anything forever inexplicable.

False. Your nothing is a quantum nothing. If you have been paying attention you know I am referring to an absolute nothing. I have called it the null set.

Yes, I know, but you're simply assuming there was once an "absolute nothing". There's no evidence of this. Assumptions with no evidence make for poor proofs.

Beyond that, science doesn't prove things. It assembles evidence in support of hypotheses that might one day gather a consensus and become a theory.

False. I am discussing issues as they are raised and offering reminders of what has already been discussed.

Discussion like your series of one and two line responses from yesterday? And you were reminded of a good bit yourself, to which you responded by simply declaring your original assertion again.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by nano, posted 10-29-2016 6:54 AM nano has not yet responded

    
vimesey
Member (Idle past 219 days)
Posts: 888
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 317 of 329 (793442)
10-29-2016 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by nano
10-28-2016 2:19 PM


Likewise, you can't explain something that came from absolutely nothing

Why can't you ?


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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 Message 307 by nano, posted 10-28-2016 2:19 PM nano has not yet responded

    
RAZD
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Posts: 19544
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 318 of 329 (793443)
10-29-2016 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by nano
10-28-2016 4:27 PM


... Thank you for calling my proof statement a tautology because it is true by necessity and by its logical form.

A tautology is mundanely true because it references itself, and is therefore meaningless.

As I have stated, when I say "universe" I mean:

universe = multiverse = all of existence

Ah, so you redefine words to maintain your dogma. Unfortunately for you, that does not make it true.

And I noticed you didn't address the rest of my post:

quote:
If the "first thing" is outside the universe (see brane theory for creating universes) how is it a "first thing" for the universe?

In fact all your replies seem to be one-liners to one issue at a time. I'll keep this in mind.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : quote


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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RAZD
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From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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(1)
Message 319 of 329 (793444)
10-29-2016 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by nano
10-29-2016 7:29 AM


Tangle writes:

What if the first thing was nothing?

A confusion of terms and another red herring.

Actually it is an aspect of current thinking in physics, that out of nothing two things appear, a particle and an antiparticle that when combined become nothing.

So you have nothing, then two things, then nothing.

You can even get several particles all at once, but never a single one, just as this can be happening simultaneously ...

Thus for your tautology to be true the "First Thing" has to be nothing.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Tangle
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Posts: 5961
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 320 of 329 (793451)
10-29-2016 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by nano
10-29-2016 7:29 AM


nano writes:

A confusion of terms and another red herring.

I'm trying to show you that without defining 'nothing' you can't even start your argument. I don't know what nothing is, do you? Is it even possible for nothing to exist? How would you know?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


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nano
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Posts: 106
Joined: 09-25-2012


Message 321 of 329 (835046)
06-16-2018 5:32 PM


Very interesting interview with Leonard Mlodinow on "Why Is There Anything At All?" It gets good at

https://youtu.be/tzsE6xmfpTQ?t=6m7s

Highlights:

7:34 - "Physicists can't go beyond that"

8:10 - "Physics by definition can't go beyond that"

8:57 - "I don't require that physics or science explains everything. It's OK that there are things that aren't explained by it that we have to think about in other ways"


    
nano
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Posts: 106
Joined: 09-25-2012


(1)
Message 322 of 329 (835097)
06-17-2018 6:49 PM


Another very interesting interview on "Why is there Something rather than Nothing?". This time with Steven Weinberg.

"Steven Weinberg is an American theoretical physicist and Nobel laureate in Physics for his contributions to the unification of the weak force and electromagnetic interaction between elementary particles."

At 22:24 he says "We will never have an answer."

https://youtu.be/okiDJOK3hNU?t=22m24s


Replies to this message:
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frako
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Posts: 2776
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(2)
Message 323 of 329 (835121)
06-18-2018 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by nano
06-17-2018 6:49 PM


At 22:24 he says "We will never have an answer."

That may be, it could also be that the nature of nothing is such that it "wants" or has a tendency to express itself as a net 0 sum of opposites. Or -2+1+1=0.

Like 2 virtual particles coming in to existence from nothing and going back to nothing the whole universe is just nothing split in to opposite parts.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


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Replies to this message:
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AnswersInGenitals
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Posts: 495
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 324 of 329 (835739)
06-29-2018 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by nano
06-17-2018 6:49 PM


Simple question. Simple answer.
We have two possibilities:

1) no universe (or multiverse) exists and there is nothing,

2) at least one universe exists and there is something.

These possible occurrences are independent and therefore have equal probability of occurring, i. e., each has a 50% chance of occurring.

Therefore, the reason there is something instead of nothing is simply because there is a 50% chance of that being so.
____________________________
In a far off none existent universe, none existent philosophers are arguing over why there is nothing instead of something. They are funded by non-existent government agencies.


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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
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Posts: 5961
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 325 of 329 (835740)
06-29-2018 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by AnswersInGenitals
06-29-2018 4:21 PM


Re: Simple question. Simple answer.
Nope. Because they are independent, one might have a 99.99999999% chance and the other 0.00000001%. Or any combination of numbers in between.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-29-2018 4:21 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by NoNukes, posted 06-29-2018 6:35 PM Tangle has responded

  
NoNukes
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Posts: 10856
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 326 of 329 (835741)
06-29-2018 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Tangle
06-29-2018 4:43 PM


Re: Simple question. Simple answer.
Nope. Because they are independent, one might have a 99.99999999% chance and the other 0.99999999%. Or any combination of numbers in between

Those two numbers add up to 101%


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Tangle, posted 06-29-2018 4:43 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Tangle, posted 06-30-2018 1:39 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10856
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 327 of 329 (835742)
06-29-2018 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by AnswersInGenitals
06-29-2018 4:21 PM


Re: Simple question. Simple answer.
These possible occurrences are independent and therefore have equal probability of occurring, i. e., each has a 50% chance of occurring.

I won the lottery, or I did not. Each has a fifty percent chance of occurring?

Your argument is just as silly as the one that this thread is based on. I assume highlighting the silliness is your point.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT


This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-29-2018 4:21 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5961
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 328 of 329 (835745)
06-30-2018 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by NoNukes
06-29-2018 6:35 PM


Re: Simple question. Simple answer.
Shouldn't drink and type.....fixed

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by NoNukes, posted 06-29-2018 6:35 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10968
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 329 of 329 (835746)
06-30-2018 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by frako
06-18-2018 6:15 AM


but isn't that silly as we are explaining it?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

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