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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1965
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 301 of 332 (843235)
11-15-2018 5:59 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by PaulK
11-15-2018 5:55 AM


Thanks. You did, indeed.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by PaulK, posted 11-15-2018 5:55 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 752
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 302 of 332 (843240)
11-15-2018 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by PaulK
11-15-2018 5:20 AM


Re: Three gone already
In addition to Raab, Vara (Minister of State at the Northern Ireland Office) and McVey (Work and Pensions Secretary) have resigned. Vara went before Raab.
The Brexiteers are pulling out. The next question is whether they will try to replace May or just vote down the deal.

Yikes. What's the British term for clusterf*%k?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by PaulK, posted 11-15-2018 5:20 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by PaulK, posted 11-15-2018 11:17 AM Diomedes has not yet responded
 Message 305 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2018 5:09 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15737
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 303 of 332 (843244)
11-15-2018 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by PaulK
11-15-2018 5:55 AM


Re: Three gone already
Pressie writes:

Their only realistic long-term deal that can work is for Britain to abandon Northern Ireland.


They should have done that a century ago.

ABE: Replied to the wrong poster somehow.

Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by PaulK, posted 11-15-2018 5:55 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14545
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 304 of 332 (843245)
11-15-2018 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Diomedes
11-15-2018 9:58 AM


Re: Three gone already
quote:

Yikes. What's the British term for clusterf*%k?

Brexit. Or it should be.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Diomedes, posted 11-15-2018 9:58 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6344
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 305 of 332 (843273)
11-15-2018 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by Diomedes
11-15-2018 9:58 AM


Re: Three gone already
Diomedes writes:

What's the British term for clusterf*%k?

Buggers muddle, or more recently, omnishambles.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1965
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 306 of 332 (843302)
11-16-2018 4:18 AM


I've been watching various live interviews with Nigel on BBC International, Sky and CNN throughout the night (here where I live 2 hours ahead of GMT).

What surprised me was that not even one reporter asked him to comment on the Irish border question. Or maybe it wasn't broadcast. To me that's absolutely criminal from journalists. They pussyfoot around the biggest problem when they ask him questions.

Or maybe I missed it. Anyone can refer me to Nigel's recent comments on the Irish border problem?

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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 Message 308 by Straggler, posted 11-17-2018 5:54 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 752
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 307 of 332 (843346)
11-16-2018 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Pressie
11-16-2018 4:18 AM


Or maybe I missed it. Anyone can refer me to Nigel's recent comments on the Irish border problem?

I found one recent video on youtube with Nigel commenting on the Irish border. But honestly, he isn't offering any concrete solutions. He is just claiming the administration is using it as an excuse to delay or cancel Brexit. Video is below.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2018 4:18 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10267
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 308 of 332 (843375)
11-17-2018 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Pressie
11-16-2018 4:18 AM


Farage on NI Border
Farage is just a blow hard wank puppet who is getting increasingly hysterical as the impossibility of his little England dream becomes ever more obvious. Iím sure that not how he sees it, Iím sure that to him itís all about betrayal and secret plans and whatnot, but there you go.

Anyway this is the most I could find on NI from him.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/...mple-response-irish-border-question

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2018 4:18 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3518
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 309 of 332 (843429)
11-17-2018 4:04 PM


Is it possible/feasible at some time in the future, like right now, to re-visit the Brexit vote?

With all the startled consternation expressed by surprisingly large segments of the public after the original vote and the intransigent political standoff in trying to get the thing planned and operative, is it worth the effort to have a public re-vote on the issue?


Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Straggler, posted 11-17-2018 5:16 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10267
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 310 of 332 (843447)
11-17-2018 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by AZPaul3
11-17-2018 4:04 PM


Yes. There was recently a 700,000 strong march through London demanding exactly that. A second referendum on whether to actually go through with what the government has now actually arranged after two years of trying to get some sort of achievable Brexit. Current polls do now show a remain majority. But itís still pretty even. Those who voted out seem to have hunkered down on their position and a lot of people (mainly leavers but also less interested remainers) are of the Ďjust get on with it, weíve had a vote just do ití position.

There is a history of EU related referenda being repeated in other countries until the ďrightĒ result is achieved. And the genuine fear is that the disenchanted masses that voted for Brexit because they feel unlistened to will rise up if the result of the last referendum isnít implemented. There is talk of Ďcivil unrestí and the like.

But if all else fails a second referendum is an option and the opposition Labour party may even be edging that way (albeit with a reluctant leadership).

I think a second referendum is now the only way out of this shit show. But thatís not to say it wonít cause itís own problems.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by AZPaul3, posted 11-17-2018 4:04 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by vimesey, posted 11-17-2018 5:50 PM Straggler has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 907
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 311 of 332 (843449)
11-17-2018 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by Straggler
11-17-2018 5:16 PM


I don't buy the civil.unrest thing. I put it at the same level as the Daily Mail's constant references to "fury". I see no fury in my day to day life. I see average people going about their day to day lives with mild indifference and humdrum preoccupation with their lives. They aren't furious about anything in my experience.

I think they're too bored with Brexit to even contemplate a mild outcry, much less civil disobedience or revolt.

Of course, if they cancelled "I'm A Celebrity", things might be different.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Straggler, posted 11-17-2018 5:16 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by AZPaul3, posted 11-17-2018 7:21 PM vimesey has not yet responded
 Message 313 by Straggler, posted 11-18-2018 1:28 AM vimesey has not yet responded
 Message 314 by caffeine, posted 11-18-2018 4:23 AM vimesey has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3518
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 312 of 332 (843452)
11-17-2018 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by vimesey
11-17-2018 5:50 PM


I see average people going about their day to day lives with mild indifference and humdrum preoccupation with their lives. They aren't furious about anything in my experience.

Ah. Americans then. The vocal minuscule minority get the press since there is nothing else to build a controversy around.

Except I would think Brexit would be big thing over there since it is about to take down your government.

But then I also thought this last vote here would have been a big thing since that orange weenie is about to take down all of American society.

What do I know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by vimesey, posted 11-17-2018 5:50 PM vimesey has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10267
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 313 of 332 (843464)
11-18-2018 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by vimesey
11-17-2018 5:50 PM


I am inclined to agree with you based on personal experience. The problem I have is that based on my personal experience of peopleís attitudes remain would have won by a landslide. Iím never quite sure these days whether the attitudes I see on a day to day basis, from friends, family, co-workers etc are representative of the country. London voted pretty overwhelmingly to stay. And my interaction with places like Thurrock and Boston (the most pro leave places in the country) are virtually nonexistent. Itís a country divided with people often in social bubbles that make their own view on this subject seem much more prevailing than it actually is.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by vimesey, posted 11-17-2018 5:50 PM vimesey has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1551
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 314 of 332 (843475)
11-18-2018 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by vimesey
11-17-2018 5:50 PM


I think they're too bored with Brexit to even contemplate a mild outcry, much less civil disobedience or revolt.

I don't think there'd be civil unrest or anything like that, but I do think a fair few people would see it as a betrayal of democracy and would be driven towards the more angry nationalist populism that's becoming popular in much of Europe these days. I'm too disconnected from British society these days to know how many people we'd be talking about here.

One of the eternal problems with democratic legitimacy - Straggler mentioned he lives somewhere that voted overwhelmingly Remain. My home town by contrast, was one of the strongest Leave votes in the country. It's very easy to gain the impression that your opinion is the default because most people you interact with in your daily life agree with you, or keep their mouth shut because they don't want an argument where they're outnumbered. Then attempts to find compromise between the conflicting views in society are easy to paint as a tiny elite ignoring the voice of the people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by vimesey, posted 11-17-2018 5:50 PM vimesey has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10267
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 315 of 332 (844044)
11-24-2018 3:33 PM


There is now a deal. Widely derided as shit by remainers and leavers alike. But Theresa May is pushing it as the only deal in town and so are the EU. Will parliament vote in favour (probably not - but fear of the alternatives may be a growing consideration). Itís all very destabilising.
Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Diomedes, posted 11-25-2018 12:20 PM Straggler has not yet responded
 Message 331 by ramoss, posted 12-09-2018 8:56 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
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