Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8796 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 10-23-2017 9:29 AM
343 online now:
jar, PaulK, Phat (AdminPhat), RAZD (4 members, 339 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Upcoming Birthdays: DrJones*, willietern
Post Volume:
Total: 821,073 Year: 25,679/21,208 Month: 1,306/2,338 Week: 63/364 Day: 14/49 Hour: 3/4

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
456Next
Author Topic:   GDR On Faith
Faith
Member
Posts: 26453
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 78 (789614)
08-17-2016 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by GDR
08-16-2016 10:01 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Critics would accuse me of picking and choosing which words to use.

Every Christian does.

I do not, nor does any preacher I like to listen to nor any Christian I know personally. One knows whether they pick or choose or sincerely submit to the word as God's own word. You cannot make up for me something other than I myself know is my honest attitude. You know that you choose from the Bible what to accept and what to reject on the basis of your own judgment of morality; I know that I do not do that and it is not your place to say otherwise. You do to me what you do to the Bible.

Faith doesn't argue for genocide or public stonings. She would rationalize it away I presume by saying it was necessary then but not now.

God's dealings with ancient Israel had different requirements than His dealings with the followers of Christ. They were a theocracy among heathen nations, Christians do not constitute an earthly nation. Their first task was to be God's arm of judgment against the Canaanites who had reached the "fullness of time" with their idolatrous practices including the sacrifice of children. But the Old Testament is full of pictures of Gpd's plan of redemption, and the picture here is of God's people displacing Satan's people, or the demonic hordes as rulers of God's creation.

You should keep in mind that everything in the Bible is done in the light of everything else in the Bible. What we learn from Genesis is that the world has come under the rule of Satan because of Adam's disobedience and that God has a long-range plan to defeat him and save sinners from slavery to him. {He [the Messiah, the seed of the woman] shall crush his head and he [the seed of the serpent, Satan] shall bruise His heel). ALL the nations of the world are enslaved to Satan as a result of the Fall in Eden but God has promised to set us free from him.

God chose Abraham to be the father of a people of God's very own, raising them up from one man to a mighty nation to represent Him in the world and to ultimately be the source of the Messiah He promised to send to defeat Satan. Satan's laws are diabolical, involving things like child sacrifice and sexual practices as "worship" of "God." God chose to rid the world of the worst of these. YOU call that "genocide" because you've bought the idea that they are "innocent"

That is of course also why He drowned the entire world in the Flood a few hundred years before Abraham. We don't even know all the reasons, but scripture hints at some pretty heinous sins committed by humanity. However, He also offered salvation on the ark to anyone would take it. They had a hundred years of Noah's preaching to repent. Only Noah and family chose to be saved.

Back to Israel: God gave Israel laws suitable to running a theocracy among idolatrous nations. They had severe laws with severe punishments as a way to keep them separate and safe from the idolatrous practices and true to their King, Jehovah. They nevertheless failed and had to go into exile and suffer many punishments, but separation was the purpose of their laws even though they ultimately failed to obey them.

I'm curious as to how she thinks God would want to use public stoning by the community for someone picking up firewood on the sabbath, or for difficult kids then,

Picking up wood on the Sabbath was a horrific violation of the Commandment to Keep the Sabbath Holy and do no work on that day. The punishment had to be severe as an example to the people. That was the point of the death penalty, so that they would take God's Law seriously and keep from profaning it. Refraining from picking up firewood on that one day isn't a lot to ask, wouldn't you think? So if someone does that against God's express command, to keep that act from corrupting the people required the most stringent punishment.

ABE: In case you could be interested in listening to a good sermon I recently heard this one about the Sabbath by John MacArthur. There is a Part 2 at You Tube also, and another sermon on the same basic subject, Why Sunday is the Lord's Day. I'm not quite sure where he says that Jesus actually rescinded the Sabbath but somewhere in these three, maybe Part 2. Anyway I love listening to John MacArthur on just about any subject and he's in good form on this subject.

/ABE

And yuour "difficult kid" was so unruly that he would have become a source of corruption to the community as well. And although scripture refers to him as a "child" commentators describe him as a young adult. Like the priest Eli's sons, who were adults committing horrific sins -- sexual sins, theft, profanation of the animal sacrifices -- during their duties as priests. God had them all put to death, including Eli for failing to discipline them. THAT is the proper context for "difficult kids."

All those laws were for the purpose of keeping the nation of Israel holy and pure. Being fallen like the rest of us they couldn't sustain the rigors of their duties and kept falling into sin, even imitating the heathen nations by sacrificing their children to demon gods, and profaning the temple with the incorporation of heathen gods, so God finally sent Assyria to completely do away with the Northern Kingdom, though He preserved Judah for David's sake as the promised progenitor of the Messiah.

It was only when the Messiah came and sent the Holy Spirit that fallen humanity had the power to obey God's laws. But He gave the laws to teach their purpose and the severe punishments to keep the people holy though fallen humanity isn't up to them. Through the Holy Spirit, if we "walk in Him" we now have the power to obey. It's still hard, we still fall into the "flesh" but now we are safe from punishment because of Jesus' sacrifice for us. Without that all humanity, every last one of us, would die without redemption.

SO, Christians are now under an entirely different "dispensation." We are not an earthly nation so we aren't under the laws God gave Israel. In fact all those laws were fulfilled in Christ and we have the benefit of their fulfillment being imputed to us, God's own righteousness our own now. We obey the moral law as we are able through His power, but now it is an individual thing and not a national thing. He also rescinded the Sabbath so we are no longer under that law and avoiding all work like picking up firewood is no longer required of us. We excommunicate sinners like the unruly "child" but beyond that I'm not sure how that law affects us in the Messianic dispensation. But we are also taught that vengeance is God's and we are not to take revenge ourselves for anything. When Jesus returns everything will be set right.

The problem is you do not have a proper understanding of the complexities of God's revelation, the history it recounts and the plan of redemption which is what it is all about, and you apply man's standards instead. In this little sketch I may have failed to do it anything like the justice it deserves.

but presumably, (maybe I'm wrong here), wouldn't see it done for some of the heinous things have happening today.

See above.

ABE: I should add that not being a nation but citizens of many nations, and charged with taking the gospel to the world, we are also charged with being "salt and light" in the world --- to influence the world to avoid the corruptions fallen humanity under the yoke of Satan is prone to -- (killing unborn babies for instance, treating sexual sins as rights and lots more). Satan's been winning lately. We've fallen down on the job.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 10:01 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 2:36 AM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4316
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 32 of 78 (789617)
08-17-2016 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
08-17-2016 1:04 AM


Re: you have a very small God
There are so many faults in what you write Faith that it is difficult to know where to begin. Jesus established His Kingdom so in a very real sense Christians are a nation but one without borders.

How many people have come back from various wars in the last century and been totally unable to deal with the experience. PTSD from the horrors of war is a very real thing. As you believe in an inerrant Bible you believe that Yahweh was able to destroy the whole community of Sodom and Gomorrah on His own. You also believe that He was able to bring about a flood that killed everyone except for one family.

Why then, would He subject His chosen people, to the horrors that they would experience by commanding them to kill all life, men, women, children and beasts in a neighbouring community. Why would He subject them to the huge psychological damage that they would undoubtedly suffer. Why didn't He just do it Himself? Your version of God is someone that not only wants to annihilate the bad guys but wants to see that the good guys suffer as well.

You cannot square your version with God as perfectly represented by Jesus. That is the Jesus who lived in a country ruled by a brutal foreign power. Jesus told His followers that in the end victory is won by changing hearts and called them to love their enemy and turn the other cheek etc.

If you fight evil with evil you know that evil is going to win every time.

I give thanks to God that He isn't the diabolical deity you make Him out to be. However, this is the belief that you get when you replace Jesus with the Bible.

Edited by GDR, : typo


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 1:04 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 2:42 AM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26453
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 78 (789618)
08-17-2016 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by GDR
08-17-2016 2:36 AM


Re: you have a very small God
I said not an EARTHLY nation. We are a nation but not in the sense of earthly nations.

I can't bel.ieve what you are willing to say against God. but I guess I have to give up trying to change your mind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 2:36 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 2:51 AM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4316
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 34 of 78 (789619)
08-17-2016 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
08-17-2016 2:42 AM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

I can't bel.ieve what you are willing to say against God. but I guess I have to give up trying to change your mind.

I am saying that God actually loves the people that He cared enough about to create them. You are saying that He is prepared to slaughter the ones He doesn't like and at the same time subject the ones He does like to unbelievable psychological trauma, and yet you are saying that you can't believe the things I am willing to say against God.

This is what comes of worshiping false idols.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 2:42 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 3:31 AM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26453
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 78 (789622)
08-17-2016 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by GDR
08-17-2016 2:51 AM


Re: you have a very small God
I am saying that God actually loves the people that He cared enough about to create them. You are saying that He is prepared to slaughter the ones He doesn't like ....

"doesn't like???" Oh my aching head. Sin, GDR, sin, sin is the reason for all the punishments God brings against anyone, the violation of God's Law, and the worse the sin the greater the punishment.

I just happened to be listening to a reading of Jeremiah (around chapters 45 through 49 or thereabouts) in which over and over again God through Jeremiah tells the people that He will punish them because they have not obeyed His Law. There is no other reason. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking, it's about obedience, it's about the Moral Law that rules the universe. It's sin that brings judgment down on nations, and on individuals. That will be the reason for Jesus' taking vengeance at His Second Coming too and since He came the first time to pay for our sins so we don't have to suffer the punishment for them, it will be punishment for refusing His offer of salvation in His own blood.

Sin is the reason for ALL the suffering on this earth. Even the Hindus have a rudimentary understanding of the inexorability of the Moral Law in their concept of karma. It's not a perfect understanding by any means, but it's in the ballpark.

We ought to be able to learn from scripture that sin is the wrecker of everything and the cause of all misery on this earth. Love does not let sin go unpunished: that would be the opposite of love.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 2:51 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 11:46 AM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4316
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 36 of 78 (789636)
08-17-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
08-17-2016 3:31 AM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

"doesn't like???" Oh my aching head. Sin, GDR, sin, sin is the reason for all the punishments God brings against anyone, the violation of God's Law, and the worse the sin the greater the punishment.

If God is going to have people slaughtered because of sin then why didn't He just slaughter everybody because as you know everyone sins? Did He kill every one who worshiped the fatted calf? You worship a God who is very selective about who gets killed. David was a guy after God's own heart but committed all sorts of serious sins as you know. God allows Him to live and prosper but has some poor smuck killed for picking up firewood on the Sabbath.

Where in all of this is the forgiveness that Jesus talks about?

Faith writes:

I just happened to be listening to a reading of Jeremiah (around chapters 45 through 49 or thereabouts) in which over and over again God through Jeremiah tells the people that He will punish them because they have not obeyed His Law. There is no other reason. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking, it's about obedience, it's about the Moral Law that rules the universe. It's sin that brings judgment down on nations, and on individuals. That will be the reason for Jesus' taking vengeance at His Second Coming too and since He came the first time to pay for our sins so we don't have to suffer the punishment for them, it will be punishment for refusing His offer of salvation in His own blood.

God will take vengeance eh? Now it isn't about perfect judgement but vengeance, and not even just for sin but for not getting your doctrine right. You really bring God down to a very base human level.

Faith writes:

Love does not let sin go unpunished: that would be the opposite of love.

If your kid screws up isn't it sometimes best to give them a hug and tell them not to do it again. I think that you have given a rather perverted view of love, and again where is the forgiveness Jesus talked about. Again, you continuously replace Jesus with the Bible. It is Bibleianity not Christianity that you adhere to.

You still haven't answered the question of why God would subject His chosen people to the horrors of slaughtering men, women and children instead of just doing it Himself.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 3:31 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 11:59 AM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26453
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 78 (789639)
08-17-2016 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by GDR
08-17-2016 11:46 AM


Re: you have a very small God
Sigh. God is long-suffering, says scripture, and gives lots of time to repent, with lots of warnings before punishing sin. Canaan had four hundred or more years of time to repent. God's prophets were warning Israel of coming judgment hundreds of years before God sent them into exile and completely banished the Northern Kingdom.

He also of course planned from the beginning to send the Redeemer to save us from punishment for our sins, and that promise became a theme repeated throughout the Old Testament through various prophets.

David was severely punished for his sins. For the sin of seducing Bathsheba and having her husband killed, the baby Bathsheba conceived by him died; then one of his sons raped his half-sister and was killed by another son, who then challenged David to the throne and died.

Forgiveness is possible NOW through the sacrifice of Christ; it was possible before Christ only through faith in the promise of the coming Redeemer. Sin HAS to be punished, so Jesus took that punishment for us. Forgiveness would not be possible otherwise.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 11:46 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 1:12 PM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4316
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 38 of 78 (789646)
08-17-2016 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
08-17-2016 11:59 AM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

Sigh. God is long-suffering, says scripture, and gives lots of time to repent, with lots of warnings before punishing sin. Canaan had four hundred or more years of time to repent. God's prophets were warning Israel of coming judgment hundreds of years before God sent them into exile and completely banished the Northern Kingdom.

I'm not even sure what long suffering means to an eternal God but here again we have a case of God wanting a whole community, men women and children slaughtered whereas He just has the Israelites moved into exile.

Faith writes:

He also of course planned from the beginning to send the Redeemer to save us from punishment for our sins, and that promise became a theme repeated throughout the Old Testament through various prophets.

Then why was it necessary to see anyone slaughtered?

Faith writes:

David was severely punished for his sins. For the sin of seducing Bathsheba and having her husband killed, the baby Bathsheba conceived by him died; then one of his sons raped his half-sister and was killed by another son, who then challenged David to the throne and died.

So instead of punishing David you see God going after David's family including having an infant die. This again is what you get when you are a follower of an inerrant Bible instead of a follower of Jesus.

Faith writes:

Forgiveness is possible NOW through the sacrifice of Christ; it was possible before Christ only through faith in the promise of the coming Redeemer. Sin HAS to be punished, so Jesus took that punishment for us. Forgiveness would not be possible otherwise.

Once again you simply ignore what Jesus taught. How about "you who is without sin cast the first stone". Jesus obviously taught that sin that is repented can be forgiven without punishment. The forgiveness that comes through the cross and resurrection is for life to come when all things are renewed. You are confusing forgiveness and justice in the past and present of human existence with the justice and forgiveness that is yet to come.

This is getting boring but once again - why God would subject His chosen people to the horrors of slaughtering men, women and children instead of just doing it Himself.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 11:59 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 4:53 PM GDR has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9906
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 39 of 78 (789647)
08-17-2016 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by GDR
08-16-2016 2:03 PM


GDR writes:

Remember the Bible is made up of 66 books with hundreds of authors. Why should we give them all the same credibility. However, as Christians we supposedly see Jesus as the embodiment of the wisdom of God so that should be the filter or lens that we use to understand where the Biblical authors got it right and where they got it wrong.

In Things That Differ Stam emphasizes rightly dividing the word of truth.

He explains how many supposed discrepancies in the Bible are more clearly seen in context. For example:

quote:
Does this mean, then, that II Tim. 2:15 and II Tim. 3:16 contradict each
other? Surely they do not. The fact is that, written only a few paragraphs apart,
by the same author, to the same person, about the same Book, these two verses
complement each other. II Tim. 2:15 explains how God's workman may get most
out of the Bible, while II Tim. 3:16 declares that all of it was given for his profit.
All Scripture is indeed profitable when "rightly divided," but when wrongly divided
or not divided at all, the truth is changed into a lie and becomes most
unprofitable. Thus II Tim. 2:15 is the key to II Tim. 3:16 and to the understanding
and enjoyment of the Word of truth.

He also differentiates how scripture is to be understood by equating it with sending a letter.

quote:
If I should step inside a modern United States Post Office all would doubtless seem very confusing to me. But it would be a mistake to suggest piling all the mail neatly in one corner and handing it out promiscuously to all comers as
some would do with the Bible. The postal employees must "rightly divide" the
mail so that each person receives what is addressed to him. What seems like
confusion to the novice is really a simplification of the work to be done in getting
each person's private mail to him.

It is granted that in the Bible even that which was addressed to those of other
dispensations is given to us for our learning and profit, but we must not confuse
this with our own private mail or make the mistake of carrying out instructions
meant particularly for others.

While I am reading mail addressed personally to me, a friend may hand me,
for my interest or information, mail addressed to him. His mail and mine may all
prove informative and profitable, but I must still be careful not to confuse the two,
expecting to receive things promised to him or carrying out instructions
addressed to him.

Thus all the Bible is for us, but it is not all addressed to us or written about
us, and if we would really understand and enjoy it; if we would really know how
to use it effectively in service for Christ, we must be careful always to note who
is addressing whom, about what and when and why.


Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by GDR, posted 08-16-2016 2:03 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 2:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4316
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 40 of 78 (789648)
08-17-2016 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
08-17-2016 1:13 PM


Phat writes:

He explains how many supposed discrepancies in the Bible are more clearly seen in context.

There are numerous passages in the Bible that contradict each other which is only evidence that the literalist understanding of the Bible is wrong. Here is a secular web site that lists many of those contradictions although many of them can also be explained away.
Bible Inconsistencies

That isn't what primarily concerns me though. Faith's view using the understanding that the Bible is inerrant leads to a very different understanding of the nature of God than does my understanding of the nature of God that is based on the belief that Jesus perfectly modeled God's nature.

Phat's quote writes:

Thus all the Bible is for us, but it is not all addressed to us or written about us, and if we would really understand and enjoy it; if we would really know how to use it effectively in service for Christ, we must be careful always to note who is addressing whom, about what and when and why.

That's fine but again it only deals with a part of the difficulty. The fact is that there are contradictions. We even have Jesus correcting things from the OT. With Faith's understanding we are left with a God who is either genocidal and vengeful or forgiving and loving - take your pick, one or the other or both.

I see the Bible as an ongoing narrative of God and the Israelites climaxing in Jesus. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Israel story. It is a progressive revelation.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 08-17-2016 1:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26453
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 78 (789654)
08-17-2016 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by GDR
08-17-2016 1:12 PM


Re: you have a very small God
So instead of punishing David you see God going after David's family including having an infant die. This again is what you get when you are a follower of an inerrant Bible instead of a follower of Jesus.

I should have given up some time ago but some things beg to be answered. Seems to me that a parent would rather die himself than see his children die. Three sons died.

We all inherit sin and punishment too, scripture says that. All humanity inherits the sin nature from Adam and we also inherit from our more immediate ancestors. We may not know the source of a particular experience but sometimes we do. When you see your own sins coming down on your children I think that is a far worse punishment than anything that could happen to you personally, and I'm sure David knew why his children were going through what they did and was particularly agonized because it was his own fault.

If there is some protection of David himself implied, it is because David was "a man after God's own heart," who had many sins but the right heart toward God and sincerely repented of his sins when he saw them.

Once again you simply ignore what Jesus taught. How about "you who is without sin cast the first stone". Jesus obviously taught that sin that is repented can be forgiven without punishment.

Nothing at all obvious about that. The Law is absolutely inexorable, every jot and tittle of it must be fulfilled. It HAS to punish sin and punish it to perfect precision. Jesus was teaching that the Pharisees are not without sin either, and demonstrating His divine power to forgive too, and probably also anticipating the change from the laws of the Old Testament dispensation to the new dispensation based on His sacrifice; but that doesn't mean the woman is not still subject to punishment by the Law of God. Punishment does not always immediately follow on the sin, as has been said, but it WILL eventually follow. But since Jesus took the punishment of the sins of believers on Himself He is in a position to forgive.

The forgiveness that comes through the cross and resurrection is for life to come when all things are renewed. You are confusing forgiveness and justice in the past and present of human existence with the justice and forgiveness that is yet to come.

No I'm not. You are. Jesus' saving the woman from stoning doesn't mean she was saved from punishment in some other way. As scripture tells us, there are ALWAYS consequences for sin in this life as well as the next.

This is getting boring but once again - why God would subject His chosen people to the horrors of slaughtering men, women and children instead of just doing it Himself.

That happened what, once? Twice? Yes it is getting boring. If scripture doesn't explain it or imply an explanation I leave it to God. It's His universe.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 1:12 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 5:38 PM Faith has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4316
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 42 of 78 (789659)
08-17-2016 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
08-17-2016 4:53 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

I should have given up some time ago but some things beg to be answered. Seems to me that a parent would rather die himself than see his children die. Three sons died.We all inherit sin and punishment too, scripture says that. All humanity inherits the sin nature from Adam and we also inherit from our more immediate ancestors. We may not know the source of a particular experience but sometimes we do. When you see your own sins coming down on your children I think that is a far worse punishment than anything that could happen to you personally, and I'm sure David knew why his children were going through what they did and was particularly agonized because it was his own fault.

That is such a perverted view of how justice works that it is really difficult to know how to respond. I wonder how the kids would feel about it.

Faith writes:

If there is some protection of David himself implied, it is because David was "a man after God's own heart," who had many sins but the right heart toward God and sincerely repented of his sins when he saw them.

But He still had the kids killed.

Faith writes:

Nothing at all obvious about that. The Law is absolutely inexorable, every jot and tittle of it must be fulfilled. It HAS to punish sin and punish it to perfect precision. Jesus was teaching that the Pharisees are not without sin either, and demonstrating His divine power to forgive too, and probably also anticipating the change from the laws of the Old Testament dispensation to the new dispensation based on His sacrifice; but that doesn't mean the woman is not still subject to punishment by the Law of God. Punishment does not always immediately follow on the sin, as has been said, but it WILL eventually follow. But since Jesus took the punishment of the sins of believers on Himself He is in a position to forgive.

So it was sin punished with perfect precision when you say that God had David's three kids killed. I thought the rain fell on the just and the unjust. I have a good friend from church who suffers from a very severe case of MS and now in all likelihood has cancer. I wonder what her sin was.

GDR writes:

This is getting boring but once again - why God would subject His chosen people to the horrors of slaughtering men, women and children instead of just doing it Himself.

Faith writes:

That happened what, once? Twice? Yes it is getting boring. If scripture doesn't explain it or imply an explanation I leave it to God. It's His universe.

So you agree that even you can't rationalize God commanding genocide and public stoning.

It seems to me that you worship God simply because He is God no matter what He says or does. I worship God because He is always good and always loving. That is the God that we see incarnated in Jesus, but not the God that we see by reading the Bible as the inerrant word of God. The Bible says not to worship false idols and that is exactly what you are doing. If believed that God's nature is how you describe it I wouldn't go anywhere near a church.

Yes, I agree that God speaks to us through the scriptures, old and new testaments, but the way you think the scriptures are to be understood not only obscures, but perverts the message that you should be receiving from it.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 4:53 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 6:51 PM GDR has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26453
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 78 (789664)
08-17-2016 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by GDR
08-17-2016 5:38 PM


Re: you have a very small God
ONE response and then I hope to leave you to your errors.

You wonder what sins your friend committed to deserve MS and cancer. Wasn't I clear that we INHERIT sins and punishments? She may personally have committed nothing to bring on her diseases.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 5:38 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 7:05 PM Faith has responded
 Message 46 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 7:30 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29471
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 44 of 78 (789667)
08-17-2016 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
08-17-2016 6:51 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Faith writes:

ONE response and then I hope to leave you to your errors.

You wonder what sins your friend committed to deserve MS and cancer. Wasn't I clear that we INHERIT sins and punishments? She may personally have committed nothing to bring on her diseases.

And that is a great example of Christianity at it's most vile and pitiful state. If that were true then the Christian God most certainly is a monster that should be opposed by any thinking critter.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 6:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 08-17-2016 7:08 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26453
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 78 (789668)
08-17-2016 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
08-17-2016 7:05 PM


Even pagan philosophers knew God's Law is slow, exact and inherited
The windmills of God grind exceeding fine.

ABE: By the way, I looked it up and found its source is pagan philosophy, which is acknowledging both that God's judgment may take a long time in coming -- The saying is actually: "The mills of God grind slowly but they grind exceeding fine" -- but exact (implying fulfillment to jot and tittle). So it's not a Christian concept, it's another of those recognitions of the Law of God by pagans, like karma that I already mentioned. God's Law is recognized by many peoples as both slow and precise. "Ancestral" sins are also mentioned in the article, implying that pagan philosophers also knew that we inherit sin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mills_of_God

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 7:05 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 8:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Prev12
3
456Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017