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Author Topic:   GDR On Faith
GDR
Member
Posts: 4303
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 61 of 78 (789748)
08-18-2016 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
08-18-2016 3:46 PM


Re: you have a very small God
Phat writes:

I would argue that at the time this is to be fulfilled, the Church is no longer on the earth. There are no righteous people left...only stubborn ones who do what is right in their own eyes.

Just wondering where you think the go. The Biblical message is that all things will be renewed when God's heavenly dimension comes together with our own so the righteous should still be here.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:46 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 9:33 AM GDR has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9890
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 62 of 78 (789780)
08-19-2016 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by GDR
08-18-2016 7:24 PM


*Poof* They are gone
Some Christians believe in a Rapture.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:24 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 08-19-2016 10:47 AM Phat has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4303
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 63 of 78 (789788)
08-19-2016 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
08-19-2016 9:33 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Phat writes:

Some Christians believe in a Rapture.

Some people read the Bible as if it was written specifically for a 21st century audience and not for a culture radically different than our own 2000 years ago. Understanding the idea of Jesus coming back on a cloud would be like someone writing today that it was “raining cats and dogs” and having someone read it 2000 years from now and thinking that Fido and Fluffy were falling out of the sky.
The biblical message is that resurrection is for all creation and we do have a foretaste of what resurrection looks like in Jesus. He moved between God’s dimension and our own.

Here is a short page on it by N T Wright. Farewell to the Rapture


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 9:33 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 8:49 AM GDR has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9890
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 64 of 78 (789817)
08-20-2016 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by GDR
08-19-2016 10:47 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
GDR writes:

Some people read the Bible as if it was written specifically for a 21st century audience and not for a culture radically different than our own 2000 years ago.

Are you suggesting that the Bible was only written for the people of that era back then? I disagree.

There is quite a bit of controversy over the whole idea of a Rapture of the church. There is also quite a lot being said about the supposed Last Days and End times.
This is nothing new, and as the Bible itself says, there will be a lot of false prophets in regards to this type of talk.

While none of us know for sure what the future holds in store for us, allow me to present to you the case for the last days as presented by one of the better book writers. he presents his case in a disciplined manner. We can either discuss it here or we can start another new topic,GDR. Its your call.

The Coming Epiphany

Yes he sells books, though he is basically giving this one away..which is one reason I downloaded it. It is quite possible he misuses scripture, as NT Wright suggests many do....but his argument seems sound.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 08-19-2016 10:47 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 11:06 AM Phat has responded
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 08-20-2016 12:02 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 71 by GDR, posted 08-20-2016 12:31 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29433
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 65 of 78 (789821)
08-20-2016 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
08-20-2016 8:49 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that the Bible was only written for the people of that era back then?

And what possible support could there be for that position?

And what possible reason can you give for anyone taking your latest Epiphany source seriously when history shows that every past similar prophet including Jesus has been shown to be wrong?

Wouldn't a better "Epiphany" be seriously doing what we are commanded to do; to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, protect the weak, do for others?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 8:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 11:24 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9890
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 66 of 78 (789823)
08-20-2016 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
08-20-2016 11:06 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
And what possible reason can you give for anyone taking your latest Epiphany source seriously when history shows that every past similar prophet including Jesus has been shown to be wrong?

Wouldn't a better "Epiphany" be seriously doing what we are commanded to do; to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, protect the weak, do for others?

You are quite mistaken in your understanding. Jesus was never "wrong." And to claim such shows your spiritual ignorance. You need to read the Bible without your intellectual blinders on.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 11:06 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 11:35 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29433
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 67 of 78 (789824)
08-20-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
08-20-2016 11:24 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Phat writes:

You are quite mistaken in your understanding. Jesus was never "wrong." And to claim such shows your spiritual ignorance. You need to read the Bible without your intellectual blinders on.

Maybe I don't use spiritual vision and so just see the words that were written. LOL


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 11:24 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 11:38 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9890
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 68 of 78 (789825)
08-20-2016 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
08-20-2016 11:35 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
yes, I think so! Logic reason and reality could never happen were Jesus only human.

It is more proper to say that Jesus is a work in progress. He will return. And He is and was never wrong. As Christians, we are not called to correct Jesus as Jews did with God.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 11:35 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 08-20-2016 11:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 72 by GDR, posted 08-21-2016 9:33 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29433
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 69 of 78 (789828)
08-20-2016 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
08-20-2016 11:38 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Phat writes:

yes, I think so! Logic reason and reality could never happen were Jesus only human.

It is more proper to say that Jesus is a work in progress. He will return. And He is and was never wrong. As Christians, we are not called to correct Jesus as Jews did with God.

Why not?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 11:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 70 of 78 (789831)
08-20-2016 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
08-20-2016 8:49 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Phat writes:

Are you suggesting that the Bible was only written for the people of that era back then? I disagree.


There was a Peanuts cartoon in which Lucy was expounding on all of the lofty literary reasons why an author had written what he wrote. Then Linus said, "Maybe he needed the money."

I gave that cartoon to my English professor but he didn't see the humour. No doubt Charles Schultz meant it for people 2000 years in the future.

Some of our greatest authors - Charles Dickens and Mark Twain come to mind - wrote because they needed the money. And they're not getting any from you or me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 8:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4303
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 71 of 78 (789834)
08-20-2016 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
08-20-2016 8:49 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Phat writes:

While none of us know for sure what the future holds in store for us, allow me to present to you the case for the last days as presented by one of the better book writers. he presents his case in a disciplined manner. We can either discuss it here or we can start another new topic,GDR. Its your call.

Here is how he starts off with this book:

quote:
The sun is suddenly darkened, the moon glows the color of blood, the ground shakes violently, the sky splits and rolls away like a scroll, and the stars fall. Grown men run frantically to and fro, screaming like babies, trying to find somewhere to hide, while others just faint from terror.
It is at this time that all the people of the world will have an epiphany. The epiphany will occur at the yet future event known as the Day of the Lord, which is mentioned many times in scripture. It is even the subject matter of the entire book of Joel. Many parts of scripture have whole chapters and paragraphs devoted to the topic. Understanding the Day of the Lord is foundational to a proper understanding of all biblical end-times prophecy. In this chapter, we will examine the essence, reason for, and duration of this Day.

This is the trouble again with trying to read a 2000 year old document written for a different culture, and in another language and reading it into our own context. Frederick is making that mistake largely because he comes into it with the understanding that the Bible is to be read literally through his 21st century eyes. Presumably he is taking this from Matthew 24 where Jesus draws on the books of Daniel and Isaiah. Jesus is talking to a first century Jewish audience. The question then becomes what is Jesus expecting them to understand by what He is saying.

Firstly, and most importantly they wouldn’t even understand this as being about what Frederick calls end times. The disciples asked when the “end of the age” would occur in Matthew 24, and this is the question that Jesus is responding to. The disciples aren’t asking about the end of the world they want to know when the end of the age of Roman occupation will end and this is the question that Jesus is answering.

One thing that makes this very obvious is that Jesus tells them:

quote:
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.

If this is about the end of the world why on earth would He be telling them to “flee to the mountains”.
All the talk about the sky splitting and stars falling is simply Jewish apocryphal writing for great political or military upheaval. It is like us saying that the Roman empire fell. We don’t mean that it literally fell. The early Jews used much more colourful writing than what we would use today.
For understand the part about the “coming of the Son of Man” it is necessary to go back to Daniel 7 where the Son of Man is presented to the Ancient of Days. It is about Jesus coming to the Father and being given dominion.
This was Jesus’ political message arguing against a military response to Roman occupation. He says that the result of that rebellion will be horrendous and that it will happen while people of that generation were still alive. This of course happened in 70AD. I’m not even saying that Jesus had supernatural knowledge but that to Him it was obvious that the Romans were more powerful and they would do what they always did when there was any kind of uprising. It happened again in 135 AD, and there was no doubt those that were able to see that coming as well.
Frederick is is simply taking things out of context and out of time. He is treating the Bible as a book written by God and in code which he claims to have decoded.
Here is a quote of what Frederick says in the preface to the book.
quote:
Scripture and scripture alone is the standard by which everything must be judged.
Well that begs the question of what about Jesus? Isn’t Jesus supposed to be the standard for Christianity?. Frederick is doing exactly what Faith does and is worshipping a false idol.

He goes on to say this:

quote:
Unfortunately, many approach end-times scriptures with a predetermined theological mindset and then try to make scripture fit into their theology. What sets this book apart from all the rest is that it attempts to approach the topic with all of scripture, and scripture alone, as its basis. A theological belief is then formed on the basis of what all of the scriptures dictate.

He is doing exactly what he accuses others of doing. He has his own theological mindset and applying it to what he writes. His misuse of the Scriptures then brings him to fundamental, (pun intended) misunderstandings of both God and Jesus.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 8:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4303
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 72 of 78 (789882)
08-21-2016 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
08-20-2016 11:38 AM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Phat writes:

yes, I think so! Logic reason and reality could never happen were Jesus only human.
It is more proper to say that Jesus is a work in progress. He will return. And He is and was never wrong. As Christians, we are not called to correct Jesus as Jews did with God.

I'm curious what you mean by this Phat. Wasn't there logic reason and reality before Jesus?

Also, how do you understand Jesus as being more than human?

Also If Jesus is never wrong, how can He be a work in process.

This is one of your more enigmatic posts.

Also, I'd like to know your reaction to my post 71 in this thread. I scanned parts of the book you suggested and critiqued it. Just wondering how you respond to that critique.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 08-20-2016 11:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 08-21-2016 9:46 PM GDR has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9890
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 73 of 78 (789885)
08-21-2016 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by GDR
08-21-2016 9:33 PM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Wasn't there logic reason and reality before Jesus?
In my belief, Jesus was in the beginning. Thus there was nothing before Jesus.
Also, how do you understand Jesus as being more than human?
He is eternal. He was not created. He was in the beginning a reality in Gods mind.
Also If Jesus is never wrong, how can He be a work in process.
What I meant was that Jesus as understood by us is a work in progress in our own understanding.

As for my reaction to your post, you bring up some good food for thought. I believe that the Bible is written for us today and not just to the audience of its time...but I don''t seek to make an idol out of it...if I can help it.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by GDR, posted 08-21-2016 9:33 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by GDR, posted 08-21-2016 10:38 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4303
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 74 of 78 (789891)
08-21-2016 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
08-21-2016 9:46 PM


Re: *Poof* They are gone
Phat writes:

In my belief, Jesus was in the beginning. Thus there was nothing before Jesus.


But we know that Jesus had a specific day that He was born on. John 1 tells us how the “Word” became flesh. By that we understand that the “Word” or “Wisdom” of God has existed before the dawn of time and that “Word” was perfectly embodied by Jesus, so that we can perfectly understand God the Father’s nature and His desire for our lives.
Phat writes:

He is eternal. He was not created. He was in the beginning a reality in Gods mind.


Was He not created at birth? Isn’t it the “Word” that spoke the world into existence that existed before the dawn of time? Of course we should think of Jesus as part of the Godhead but we also must remember that He was fully human and laughed and suffered like any human. He prayed to the Father that He wouldn’t have to go into Jerusalem and certain death, but went anyway as a great act of faith. Without that so much of the meaning of the cross is lost.
Phat writes:

What I meant was that Jesus as understood by us is a work in progress in our own understanding.


Certainly and by extension we should understand that the understanding of Yahweh’s nature was a work in progress, or a progressive revelation, in the OT. That is one very good reason to understand the OT through the lens of how Jesus taught and lived.
Phat writes:

As for my reaction to your post, you bring up some good food for thought. I believe that the Bible is written for us today and not just to the audience of its time...but I don''t seek to make an idol out of it...if I can help it.

I agree that God speaks to us through the Bible, but in order to understand what is being said we have to understand what was intended. There is no sense in reading Jewish apocalyptic writings about political upheaval and using it for end times prophesy. We should read it to help us understand how to deal with evil in the world which is how it was intended.
Of course it has meaning for us in the 21st century but it is useless and maybe even horribly misleading of we don’t get the message that God intends us to have.
I gave an example of how Jesus came right out and said that was in the OT was wrong and not what God intended.

As Christians we are to idolize Jesus by following Him, but when we choose to follow an inerrant Bible then we have replaced Jesus with the Bible.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 08-21-2016 9:46 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7192
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 75 of 78 (790019)
08-23-2016 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by GDR
08-18-2016 6:44 PM


Re: Credibility
The point is that for centuries people who have believed in a god(s) have always for their own benefit wanted to be on the right side of their god(s). If we had clarity about God then it would be difficult to choose to do the right thing just because it's the right thing as opposed to doing it to get on the right side of God.

My parents gave me advice with clarity and yet I don't feel like I have been stripped of any choice. I can choose to follow their advice or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 6:44 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by GDR, posted 08-23-2016 2:48 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
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