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Author Topic:   Still small voice of God found
jar
Member
Posts: 29756
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 16 of 77 (789663)
08-17-2016 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by GDR
08-17-2016 5:46 PM


Re: God In A Box
The still small voice of God can be more than simply empathy.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

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 Message 14 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 5:46 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 17 of 77 (789665)
08-17-2016 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
08-17-2016 6:22 PM


Re: God In A Box
jar writes:

The still small voice of God can be more than simply empathy.

Absolutely


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 08-17-2016 6:22 PM jar has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 18 of 77 (789670)
08-17-2016 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tangle
08-17-2016 6:07 PM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:

Do you see this brain function - which it is now demonstrated that is what empathy is - is somehow different from say, hate? Or any other emotion you care to mention? Is it only the brain function of empathy that is god given? If so, wither hate?

Well I’ll have a go at this. As I understand it “survival of the fittest” is a fairly basic part of the evolutionary process but not the only part of it. I suggest that our basic nature is to look out for number one as we see largely in the animal world, although I do agree that animals can be infected with the empathy virus as well.

It seems to me that we start off life this way and during our lives we learn empathy from the love of our parents and others, or we might have our selfishness reinforced and hate flows from that. It is hate that we allow to develop when something or someone stands in the way of what we want and is an extension of our basic nature.
Our natural instinct then is to be strong and have power over others in order to be one of the fittest genetically and other wise. It is why our natural inclination is to seek out strong healthy mates.

However we can see that we are able to rise above our base instincts and learn to act upon a concern for others and even love sacrificially. I am saying that I believe that ultimately it is our conscience or still small voice of God that pricks us when we make immoral choices as deep down we know that we should choose the moral path, but we are heavily affected by our environment as to which path it is that we choose.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tangle, posted 08-17-2016 6:07 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by NosyNed, posted 08-17-2016 8:23 PM GDR has responded
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 2:54 AM GDR has responded

    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8802
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 19 of 77 (789674)
08-17-2016 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by GDR
08-17-2016 7:26 PM


Instincts
In actual fact, a lot of what you post is wrong. Animals do not always "look out for number one". You did say "Largely" and that makes what you say not untrue but it is very misleading.

Also we know that we (and other animals) are born with empathy and a sense of fairness.

It is not simple and black and white and it is not as you think it is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 7:26 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 8:55 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 20 of 77 (789678)
08-17-2016 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by NosyNed
08-17-2016 8:23 PM


Re: Instincts
Nosy Ned writes:

In actual fact, a lot of what you post is wrong. Animals do not always "look out for number one". You did say "Largely" and that makes what you say not untrue but it is very misleading.

I have no training in evolutionary theory but it was said in a thread somewhere along the line that all life is programed to advance its genetic pool. That does move it beyond simply looking out for number one.

NosyNed writes:

Also we know that we (and other animals) are born with empathy and a sense of fairness.

I agree that it can develop early on, but whether it is there at birth or not I think would be an open question. I'm certainly a lover of animals and am never surprised by the grief and empathy that animals can exhibit. I agree that animal intelligence and emotion is far greater than is generally understood.

Chicken Intelligence

NosyNed writes:

It is not simple and black and white and it is not as you think it is.

I agree its not simple and not black and white. I'm not sure what you think I think it is. Can you let me know as I'm not sure what I think it is either.

Edited by GDR, : left out word not in last sentence


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by NosyNed, posted 08-17-2016 8:23 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

    
Tangle
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Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 21 of 77 (789695)
08-18-2016 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by GDR
08-17-2016 7:26 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:

I suggest that our basic nature is to look out for number one as we see largely in the animal world, although I do agree that animals can be infected with the empathy virus as well.

Looking after others as well as yourself is extremely common in the animal kindom. In fact it's a necessity for those animals that give birth to offspring that need looking after until they can look after themselves. That's all mammals and birds. Many organisms will sacrifice themselves to save their offspring or communities - this is shown in spectacular way in social animals like ants and bees.

The ability to live as a social group utterly depends on the evolved instinct of empathy. It also relies on other evolved features like aggression and attraction.

It seems to me that we start off life this way and during our lives we learn empathy from the love of our parents and others, or we might have our selfishness reinforced and hate flows from that.

This is very simplistic, but we do know that our upbringing affects an individual's ability to empathise with others. But the ability to do it at all is endemic - it's a brain function.

It is hate that we allow to develop when something or someone stands in the way of what we want and is an extension of our basic nature.

So it's natural. Exactly like empathy

Our natural instinct then is to be strong and have power over others in order to be one of the fittest genetically and other wise. It is why our natural inclination is to seek out strong healthy mates.

This is only one part of us, the other sides of us include the things you like - empathy, love, co-operation etc. They are all natural traits that allow us to succeed as a social species. Without the full set, we couldn't survive.

For some reason, you seems to want to claim the 'good' instincts for god and the 'bad' ones for nature. They're all of a piece. By identifying brain functions for them and showing them in other species - monkeys are a great example - we can show that they're simply evolved traits like all others.

Your 'still small voice' is a naturally occurring brain function. We can now watch it at work.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 7:26 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 1:18 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 22 of 77 (789709)
08-18-2016 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by GDR
08-17-2016 2:17 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:

..and evolution is a gift - from God.


Evolution is a gift from Biology, Chemistry, Physics. You might as well say that cancer is a gift from God.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by GDR, posted 08-17-2016 2:17 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 1:36 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 23 of 77 (789719)
08-18-2016 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tangle
08-18-2016 2:54 AM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:

This is only one part of us, the other sides of us include the things you like - empathy, love, co-operation etc. They are all natural traits that allow us to succeed as a social species. Without the full set, we couldn't survive.

For some reason, you seems to want to claim the 'good' instincts for god and the 'bad' ones for nature. They're all of a piece. By identifying brain functions for them and showing them in other species - monkeys are a great example - we can show that they're simply evolved traits like all others.

Your 'still small voice' is a naturally occurring brain function. We can now watch it at work.

I left the first part of your post out as we are in agreement on that. I actually don't disagree with the basic message here either. The thing is though, that once again you identify the process and assume that the process evolved from other mindless natural processes.

I'm interested in the processes but the point is whether or not the processes are the result of an intelligent prime mover or not. Can non-intelligence beget intelligence. I don't believe that it can. Obviously you do.

Also, our thoughts are the result of numerous inputs. We have no way of accurately discerning whether or not that still small voice as our conscience is one of them.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 2:54 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 1:35 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 24 of 77 (789722)
08-18-2016 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by GDR
08-18-2016 1:18 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:

I'm interested in the processes but the point is whether or not the processes are the result of an intelligent prime mover or not. Can non-intelligence beget intelligence. I don't believe that it can. Obviously you do.

We see it happen every day - children are born, they grow, they develop emotions and intelligence. It's a natural process. God is not involved.

Did god do it the first time - who knows, not you or I, but the evidence is that all our traits are evolved and we have similar analogues in other species. So that's the best bet given we've got zip evidence for anything else.

Also, our thoughts are the result of numerous inputs. We have no way of accurately discerning whether or not that still small voice as our conscience is one of them.

That's bizarre - they've watched it at work, are you saying this is god making the brain light up?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 1:18 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:42 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 25 of 77 (789723)
08-18-2016 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ringo
08-18-2016 12:47 PM


Re: God In A Box
ringo writes:

Evolution is a gift from Biology, Chemistry, Physics. You might as well say that cancer is a gift from God.

IMHO evolution, biology, chemistry and physics are all gifts form God. As far as cancer is concerned, as a cancer survivor I thank modern medicine for the fact that I am still around and have avoided a very unpleasant death from sinus and brain cancer. I thank God that we have been given people with the brains to develop modern medicine and for those able to deliver it.

We do know that our physical bodies are temporal and that they don't last forever. Cancer is just one of any number of things that cause death. Ultimately I believe that our consciousness, soul, or whatever you want to call it, is eternal, and so from that POV death in this life is not the end of the story anyway.

However, you make a good point that is not easy for a Christian to answer, but I've done the best I can. I agree it is not a perfect world. Natural disasters and disease are a part of it. If there is no prime mover then natural evolutionary processes hasn't been so hot either. However, IMHO God does deal with these things by working through the hearts of people to bring some relief to those who suffer from these things.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ringo, posted 08-18-2016 12:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 08-18-2016 2:27 PM GDR has responded
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:07 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 26 of 77 (789724)
08-18-2016 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by GDR
08-18-2016 1:36 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:

If there is no prime mover then natural evolutionary processes hasn't been so hot either.


We wouldn't expect it to be. Evolution is a natural process; what happens happens, whether anybody likes it or not. It's hard to conceive of a "prime mover" that would provide such aimless motion.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 1:36 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:10 PM ringo has responded
 Message 31 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:27 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10227
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 27 of 77 (789727)
08-18-2016 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by GDR
08-18-2016 1:36 PM


Whatever
GDR,responding to Ringo writes:

I agree it is not a perfect world. Natural disasters and disease are a part of it. If there is no prime mover then natural evolutionary processes hasn't been so hot either. However, IMHO God does deal with these things by working through the hearts of people to bring some relief to those who suffer from these things.

We either believe in a Creator of all seen and unseen who actually has an interest in us as humans...so much so that He was made man.....or we end up with the "whatever" school of random chance. I may have mentioned before that I do not believe in chance.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

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 Message 25 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 1:36 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 4:41 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10227
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 28 of 77 (789728)
08-18-2016 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
08-18-2016 2:27 PM


Re: God In A Box
Ringo writes:

Evolution is a natural process; what happens happens, whether anybody likes it or not. It's hard to conceive of a "prime mover" that would provide such aimless motion.

Agreed. i cannot conceive of a "prime mover" who is impersonal and random.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 08-18-2016 2:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 08-19-2016 11:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 29 of 77 (789738)
08-18-2016 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
08-18-2016 3:07 PM


Re: Whatever
Phat writes:

I may have mentioned before that I do not believe in chance.

The universe doesn't care - chance exists and can be proven to exist.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:07 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 7:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10227
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 30 of 77 (789745)
08-18-2016 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tangle
08-18-2016 4:41 PM


Re: Whatever
So how do you determine chance if you cannot determine probability?

One cannot say that there is a "high liklihood" that something occurred if they cannot nail it down to 51% or greater of if they cannot calculate the exact maths needed.

Evidence requires precise verifiable calculations. Just because they can determine the ingredients does not mean they can replicate the stew.

Also...all three of these documents are arrogant, unsubstantiated, and far from conclusive. Jesus lives...regardless of what the puny human animal thinks about itself and its place in the universe.

Humanist Manifesto
Humanist Manifesti II
Humanist Manifesto III

Oh and by the way...

The universe doesnt care..
The universe is not alive.

Edited by Phat, : added manifesto fiasco

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 4:41 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2016 2:16 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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