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Author Topic:   Still small voice of God found
GDR
Member
Posts: 4316
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 31 of 77 (789749)
08-18-2016 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ringo
08-18-2016 2:27 PM


Re: God In A Box
ringo writes:

We wouldn't expect it to be. Evolution is a natural process; what happens happens, whether anybody likes it or not. It's hard to conceive of a "prime mover" that would provide such aimless motion.


Certainly there is a randomness in the evolutionary process but in order to get from mindless particles to life of any kind let alone sentient life can't be that aimless.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 08-18-2016 2:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Pressie, posted 08-19-2016 7:05 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 08-19-2016 11:44 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4316
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 32 of 77 (789750)
08-18-2016 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Tangle
08-18-2016 1:35 PM


Re: God In A Box
Tangle writes:

We see it happen every day - children are born, they grow, they develop emotions and intelligence. It's a natural process. God is not involved.

Did god do it the first time - who knows, not you or I, but the evidence is that all our traits are evolved and we have similar analogues in other species. So that's the best bet given we've got zip evidence for anything else.

Except that we can draw our own conclusions about whether or not there is anything else going on beyond what is obvious. Many people grow up living lives that are completely contrary to the environment that they grew up in. Who knows what causes us as individuals to think the way they do. I believe that there is more involved than just natural processes and I believe that those natural processes are more than just the result of an infinite stream of other natural processes.

Can I prove it? No. You can't prove I'm wrong. It is simply my belief.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2016 1:35 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2016 2:28 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 33 of 77 (789760)
08-19-2016 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
08-18-2016 7:05 PM


Re: Whatever
Phat writes:

So how do you determine chance if you cannot determine probability?

In a coin toss p = .5; there you go, chance is proven - go test it yourself.

Also...all three of these documents are arrogant, unsubstantiated, and far from conclusive.

Well thanks for the random insight.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 7:05 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 34 of 77 (789761)
08-19-2016 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by GDR
08-18-2016 7:42 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:

Except that we can draw our own conclusions about whether or not there is anything else going on beyond what is obvious.

Sure, we can make shit up without evidence and replace rational thought with wishful thinking. It's a process mankind has used for thousands of years.

Happily, it's now changing - even your beliefs are much diluted compared to your ancestors. We've chased all Gods back to into deism and may well go further.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:42 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 8:39 AM Tangle has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1809
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 35 of 77 (789766)
08-19-2016 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by GDR
08-18-2016 7:27 PM


Re: God In A Box
I'm still trying to figure this out.

GDR writes:

Certainly there is a randomness in the evolutionary process...

This doesn't make sense. There's not one evolutionary process. You mean, lots of processes? Random processes. Lots of them. The processes are sometimes random, other times not.

GDR writes:

... but in order to get from mindless particles to life...

I consist of chemicals. Mindless chemicals. I grew in my mother. As mindless particles getting together to what I am today. I'm not too sure why you think it's a problem.

GDR writes:

...of any kind let alone sentient life can't be that aimless.

Why do you think I'm 'that' aimless?

You really didn't make any sense, GDR.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:27 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 8:38 AM Pressie has responded
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 8:43 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 36 of 77 (789768)
08-19-2016 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Pressie
08-19-2016 7:05 AM


Re: God In A Box
I consist of chemicals. Mindless chemicals. I grew in my mother. As mindless particles getting together to what I am today. I'm not too sure why you think it's a problem.
I would argue that if you think your original source was mindless and that there is no God, you are still mindless.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Pressie, posted 08-19-2016 7:05 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Pressie, posted 08-19-2016 8:51 AM Phat has responded
 Message 45 by Riggamortis, posted 08-19-2016 1:05 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 37 of 77 (789769)
08-19-2016 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tangle
08-19-2016 2:28 AM


Re: God In A Box
Sure, we can make shit up without evidence and replace rational thought with wishful thinking. It's a process mankind has used for thousands of years.

Happily, it's now changing - even your beliefs are much diluted compared to your ancestors. We've chased all Gods back to into deism and may well go further.

And thats the problem. You have effectively replace God with human wisdom. And you see no problem with that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2016 2:28 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2016 9:08 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 38 of 77 (789770)
08-19-2016 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Pressie
08-19-2016 7:05 AM


Re: God In A Box
Why do you think I'm 'that' aimless?
Quite seriously, Pressie... I wont accuse you of being mindless nor aimless. I just think you have come to some harmful conclusions. There is nothing about a belief in God that should scare you, concern you, or handicap you.

Personally, I find people who have concluded otherwise to have ...well....to have made an error in their thinking.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Pressie, posted 08-19-2016 7:05 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1809
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 39 of 77 (789771)
08-19-2016 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
08-19-2016 8:38 AM


Re: God In A Box
Phat writes:

I would argue that if you think your original source was mindless and that there is no God, you are still mindless.

I'm not too sure what you're trying to convey here. It doesn't follow from from my comment.

Should I try to explain it more carefully to be understandable? When some parts of the DNA from my father and some parts of the DNA from my mother combined (by way of chemical reactions), I was formed. Chemicals. All just chemical reactions. I am the result of a chemical reaction. And then, after that, lots and lots of chemical reactions were involved. Now I'm still here more than fifty years later. With a brain.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 8:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 8:57 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9903
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 40 of 77 (789774)
08-19-2016 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Pressie
08-19-2016 8:51 AM


Re: God In A Box
Should I try to explain it more carefully to be understandable? When some parts of the DNA from my father and some parts of the DNA from my mother combined (by way of chemical reactions), I was formed. Chemicals. All just chemical reactions. I am the result of a chemical reaction. And then, after that, lots and lots of chemical reactions were involved. Now I'm still here more than fifty years later.
Are you concluding that from mindlessness, mindfulness formed?

I suppose my argument necessitates an intelligent designer rather than a random process that leads eventually to mindfulness.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Pressie, posted 08-19-2016 8:51 AM Pressie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2016 9:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 41 of 77 (789776)
08-19-2016 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
08-19-2016 8:39 AM


Re: God In A Box
Phat writes:

And thats the problem. You have effectively replace God with human wisdom. And you see no problem with that.

Problem??? Why could there possibly be a problem? You need to explain why knowledge and human progress is a problem.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 8:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5104
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 42 of 77 (789778)
08-19-2016 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
08-19-2016 8:57 AM


Re: God In A Box
Phat writes:

Are you concluding that from mindlessness, mindfulness formed?

Of course, how on earth else do you think it happens? Do you have god intervening at each birth to insert a mind??


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 8:57 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13741
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 43 of 77 (789790)
08-19-2016 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
08-18-2016 3:10 PM


Re: God In A Box
Phat writes:

i cannot conceive of a "prime mover" who is impersonal and random.


Reality is mindless and sometimes random. What I'm saying is that if there is a "prime mover" responsible for that mindlessness, it is necessarily "impersonal".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 08-18-2016 3:10 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13741
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 44 of 77 (789791)
08-19-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by GDR
08-18-2016 7:27 PM


Re: God In A Box
GDR writes:

... in order to get from mindless particles to life of any kind let alone sentient life can't be that aimless.


Sure it can. A mountain is complex but nobody suggests that it had to be "designed" by anything but aimless natural processes.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by GDR, posted 08-18-2016 7:27 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by GDR, posted 08-19-2016 1:49 PM ringo has responded

  
Riggamortis
Member
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 45 of 77 (789797)
08-19-2016 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
08-19-2016 8:38 AM


Re: God In A Box
Hi everyone, I'm looking to start my own topic when I have time, I couldn't let this blatant hypocrisy slide however.

Phat writes:

Also...all three of these documents are arrogant, unsubstantiated, and far from conclusive. Jesus lives...regardless of what the puny human animal thinks about itself and its place in the universe.

Humanist Manifesto
Humanist Manifesti II
Humanist Manifesto III

Phat writes:

I would argue that if you think your original source was mindless and that there is no God, you are still mindless.

You assert that the humanist manifesto is arrogant, obviously because it rejects god/s. Then you go on to insult people who value evidence and reason as puny human animals for simply not believing in your particular brand of fantasy. Treating your own beliefs as fact and deriding others for not accepting your nonsense is far more arrogant than rejecting fantasy in favour of just looking out for people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 8:38 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 08-19-2016 5:20 PM Riggamortis has responded

  
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